MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[Rob]

Gallagher AND Murton AND Cedeno sounds like a lot.

 

I am all for trading for Roberts if the package is 2 of the above or a lesser 3. All three of those guys are essentially major league ready and, IMO, would take away from the depth of this years ballclub.

 

That is not a lot. That deal will not get it done. I would love to get Roberts for that deal! Too bad we're going to have to add Veal or Colvin to that deal to make it happen. Either way i'd do it!

 

We're just as good off with Ronny Cedeno starting at SS and DeRosa at 2B as we are with Theriot at SS and Roberts at 2B... and that doesn't cost us a good young starter or a damn good fourth OF.

[DeuceBaseman]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

[Soul]

Jon Heyman from SI.com weighs in:

 

There is also a sense that Angelos has an unreasonable attachment to Roberts, who may well remind the owner of himself: a little guy who's scrapped his way to the top of his profession (no, not baseball; Angelos is at the top of the legal profession, at least in terms of dollars earned).

 

Yeah well the verdict is in: Angelos should have stuck with what he was successful at. It ain't baseball.

[pitchcs]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

I like DeRosa too. I like him even better with 425 AB's all over the field. But there is only so much I would give up.

 

Also...you're viewing being an All-Star in an odd way. You're basically viewing it the same way some people do as leadoff hitter being a position. Being an All-Star is great, but it doesn't add any extra trade value.

 

Is that you Brian?

[CubColtPacer]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

I like DeRosa too. I like him even better with 425 AB's all over the field. But there is only so much I would give up.

 

Also...you're viewing being an All-Star in an odd way. You're basically viewing it the same way some people do as leadoff hitter being a position. Being an All-Star is great, but it doesn't add any extra trade value.

 

Is that you Brian?

 

Make no mistake..Brian Roberts is worth that much. He is one of the better players in the game at his position, and he isn't going to be given away.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean the Cubs should make the trade. There certainly are legitimate arguments that for the Cubs, Gallagher and Cedeno especially are worth more than the upgrade to Roberts. It's more about positional scarcity than overall trade value at that point.

 

I think the whole key to this trade is how likely you think the Cubs would give Cedeno and Gallagher starting roles on the team. If they both are relegated to bench roles all season (Gallagher probably in Iowa most of the year), then Roberts becomes a big upgrade. If Cedeno were to have a very good shot to start at SS for most of the year, then it might be different.

[Sammy Sofa]

Soriano at the top of the order didn't hurt the Cubs. A leadoff run scores whether or not the leadoff hitter hit a HR or he's hit in by someone else. The end result is the same.

[St.Paul Cub]

Does anyone have the numbers from when Soriano was injured and Theriot was in the leadoff spot? Not trying to say he'd be just as good as the other options discussed at length, but I remember him being pretty productive during that time frame. Just curious.

[Athletics36]

Gallagher AND Murton AND Cedeno sounds like a lot.

 

I am all for trading for Roberts if the package is 2 of the above or a lesser 3. All three of those guys are essentially major league ready and, IMO, would take away from the depth of this years ballclub.

 

Those aren't the names being tossed around at this point. I would have to say that when the talks between Hendry and MacPhail started that these were the names brought up. It would seem to make sense that since this time the names have changed. You have to remember that when MacPhail started discussions with the M's about the Bedard deal that 3 names were quickly agreed upon by both sides but it took awhile to agree on the other two. I would have to say that this deal if made is going to take awhile as I am sure both sides are throwing out names as to who would be involved. ;)

[wrigley23]

that is flawed thinking. your theory relies on soriano having as many leadoff hr's as roberts would of simply getting on base. Roberts gets on base 40 pts better than soriano plus sori would be able to hit him in. roberts is so much better a 2B than derosa overall it's not even close.

[CubColtPacer]

Does anyone have the numbers from when Soriano was injured and Theriot was in the leadoff spot? Not trying to say he'd be just as good as the other options discussed at length, but I remember him being pretty productive during that time frame. Just curious.

 

Theriot put up a .300/.342/.420 line out of the leadoff spot.

[brinoch]

If the price is right, I would love Roberts at 2B. The problem is that SS is a more glaring need than 2B -- at least to some people (of course being one of those people, I believe they are entirely correct).

[17 Seconds]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

Oh my god, he's an all-star! We have to get him!

 

Mark Loretta, David Eckstein, and Mark Redman are all-stars too.

[17 Seconds]

MacPhail indicated that the club isn't close to making any other significant moves. The Cubs and Orioles have engaged in lengthy trade talks involving second baseman Brian Roberts, but despite constant media and fan speculation, the two sides haven't agreed on a package.

 

"Really, in the immediate, I don't see much going on in terms of a week out or so. But you don't ever know," MacPhail said.

[Sterling30]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

Oh my god, he's an all-star! We have to get him!

 

Mark Loretta, David Eckstein, and Mark Redman are all-stars too.

 

These names, and names like them, are always brought out to argue "all-star" status, and it's fair, but Roberts is a legitimate All-Star.

 

Bold prediction: if Roberts is traded to the Cubs, he will back up Chase Utley at the 2008 All-Star game. Legitimately.

[17 Seconds]

Roberts gets on base 40 pts better than soriano plus sori would be able to hit him in.

 

Roberts' career OBP is only .14 higher than Soriano's

[17 Seconds]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

Oh my god, he's an all-star! We have to get him!

 

Mark Loretta, David Eckstein, and Mark Redman are all-stars too.

 

These names, and names like them, are always brought out to argue "all-star" status, and it's fair, but Roberts is a legitimate All-Star.

 

Bold prediction: if Roberts is traded to the Cubs, he will back up Chase Utley at the 2008 All-Star game. Legitimately.

 

I find that using the "he's an all-star" claim only weakens a person's argument for acquiring Roberts. If he's really as great as someone says he is, then they shouldn't have a problem coming up with enough reasons to prove that without saying "he's an all-star!". It reminds me of the way Theriot supporters talk.

[SweetZombieJesus]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

Oh my god, he's an all-star! We have to get him!

 

Mark Loretta, David Eckstein, and Mark Redman are all-stars too.

 

Yeah and none of those guys would be considered a elite player for his position.

 

Utley is the only player among 2nd basemen that has more total win shares than roberts in the past three years. Roberts is a elite player for 2B.

[17 Seconds]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

Oh my god, he's an all-star! We have to get him!

 

Mark Loretta, David Eckstein, and Mark Redman are all-stars too.

 

Yeah and none of those guys would be considered a elite player for his position.

 

Utley is the only player among 2nd basemen that has more total win shares than roberts in the past three years. Roberts is a elite player for 2B.

 

I'm not saying he's not a good player, I'm just sick of people using the term "all-star" to qualify him as a good player. Read my above post.

 

Anyways, Roberts wouldn't be in my top 3 choices for 2B's in all of baseball next season.

[rawaction]

If the price is right, I would love Roberts at 2B. The problem is that SS is a more glaring need than 2B -- at least to some people (of course being one of those people, I believe they are entirely correct).

 

Roberts is clearly available though, whereas there aren't any SS improvements over Theriot who are known to be on the market. We like to talk about Peralta and Greene, but there have been no indications that their teams want to trade them.

[SweetZombieJesus]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

Oh my god, he's an all-star! We have to get him!

 

Mark Loretta, David Eckstein, and Mark Redman are all-stars too.

 

Yeah and none of those guys would be considered a elite player for his position.

 

Utley is the only player among 2nd basemen that has more total win shares than roberts in the past three years. Roberts is a elite player for 2B.

 

I'm not saying he's not a good player, I'm just sick of people using the term "all-star" to qualify him as a good player. Read my above post.

 

Anyways, Roberts wouldn't be in my top 3 choices for 2B's in all of baseball next season.

 

I'd like to hear that list and B.J. Upton doesn't count since he's playing CF

[SweetZombieJesus]

If the price is right, I would love Roberts at 2B. The problem is that SS is a more glaring need than 2B -- at least to some people (of course being one of those people, I believe they are entirely correct).

 

Roberts is clearly available though, whereas there aren't any SS improvements over Theriot who are known to be on the market. We like to talk about Peralta and Greene, but there have been no indications that their teams want to trade them.

 

correct

[WilcoFan]

I think the point is not whether Roberts is an upgrade from DeRosa-he clearly is an upgrade. However, the Cubs need to consider whether or not the upgrade at 2B worth the downgrading of depth at SP, OF, and (most importantly) SS.

 

IF Piniella was committed to starting DeRosa at SS and Roberts at 2B, this trade looks much better. But upgrading a position of relative strength, relegating a solid player to the bench (DeRosa) while still maintaining a MASSIVE hole in the lineup at SS and sacrificing the one player who could provide (potentially) acceptable numbers at the SS position in the trade (Cedeno) just flat out doesn't make sense.

 

Offensive priority #1 should be removing Ryan Theriot from the everyday lineup. A trade for Brian Roberts does nothing to help this gaping hole, and at the very least should be relegated to the status of "nice luxury." By NO means should this be a priority.

[17 Seconds]

If the price is right, I would love Roberts at 2B. The problem is that SS is a more glaring need than 2B -- at least to some people (of course being one of those people, I believe they are entirely correct).

 

Roberts is clearly available though, whereas there aren't any SS improvements over Theriot who are known to be on the market. We like to talk about Peralta and Greene, but there have been no indications that their teams want to trade them.

 

The Tigers got Renteria for likely less than what it will take to get Roberts. Anyways, we don't know who else is on the market. It's Hendry's job to find out. Nobody had any idea Swisher was on the market either. There are always guys available.

[rawaction]

I think the point is not whether Roberts is an upgrade from DeRosa-he clearly is an upgrade. However, the Cubs need to consider whether or not the upgrade at 2B worth the downgrading of depth at SP, OF, and (most importantly) SS.

 

IF Piniella was committed to starting DeRosa at SS and Roberts at 2B, this trade looks much better. But upgrading a position of relative strength, relegating a solid player to the bench (DeRosa) while still maintaining a MASSIVE hole in the lineup at SS and sacrificing the one player who could provide (potentially) acceptable numbers at the SS position in the trade (Cedeno) just flat out doesn't make sense.

 

Offensive priority #1 should be removing Ryan Theriot from the everyday lineup. A trade for Brian Roberts does nothing to help this gaping hole, and at the very least should be relegated to the status of "nice luxury." By NO means should this be a priority.

 

Again, it would be great to fill the SS hole, but who, how and where? It's not a luxury to have another good baseball player on the team, which Roberts is. The way I see it, Derosa is always a possibility to fall back into his pre-Texas numbers, which are not good. Roberts is a much better bet to be a real good player, thus making the hole from Theriot's lack of production less of a burden.

[17 Seconds]

I disagree. I like DeRosa and think hes a great player, but Roberts would be much more valuable to the Cubs. He's a guy we can bat at the top of the order in front of lee and ramirez which is what hurt us most last year. Plus Cedeno probably wouldnt even start if he was on this team this year. And DeRosa would still be playing, moving around different positions. And a POSSIBLE #3 SP, a 4th OF, and a backup SS for an All-Star 2B??? No that is not enough to get an All-Star!

 

Oh my god, he's an all-star! We have to get him!

 

Mark Loretta, David Eckstein, and Mark Redman are all-stars too.

 

Yeah and none of those guys would be considered a elite player for his position.

 

Utley is the only player among 2nd basemen that has more total win shares than roberts in the past three years. Roberts is a elite player for 2B.

 

I'm not saying he's not a good player, I'm just sick of people using the term "all-star" to qualify him as a good player. Read my above post.

 

Anyways, Roberts wouldn't be in my top 3 choices for 2B's in all of baseball next season.

 

I'd like to hear that list and B.J. Upton doesn't count since he's playing CF

 

Well, I'd certainly take Cano and Utley over him. I'd probably take Phillips over him too. You could make arguments for other guys as well.