MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[mdwilla]

It's okay I've only viewed this thread about 20,000 times and know it's doesn't look there's a deal? no really I'm okay ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[XZero771679666304]

 

You are obviously just a baseball fan. I am a baseball coach.

 

I love that. You know what? It means next to nothing.

 

I think most fans are glad their GM's have the final say with regard to their team's roster and not the manager/coaches. Can you imagine if Dusty Baker was allowed to assemble his own roster? I am not saying coaches aren't knowledgeable, just that simply being a coach does not mean you have a greater understanding of all the nuances of the game. I have been around a lot of coaches in my life, and a lot of them knew a lot, but just as many didn't.

 

 

 

As others have said, you get the best offensive player you can at each position, then determine the order. You don't pass over a superior player in favor of a guy who has a "leadoff hitter" skill set, but isn't as good. This isn't 1985 anymore.

[badnews]

Yeah, the Roberts arguers should explain that. If the big deal is having him get on before Lee and Ramirez, doesn't he still do that hitting #2?

 

Nobody wants to go there. Roberts has to hit #1 because's a LEADOFF MAN. That's the explanation I keep getting.

 

The second most frequent explanation is that "If he hits 2nd, we can't have a dead bat guy sacrifice him to second." Ugh.

 

Believe it or don't, a lot of stolen bases pile up in that #2 position. The Dodgers had 57 steals from the #2 spot. The Phillies and the Devil Rays had 36, and so forth.

 

Everyone here is going to be pissed at Jim for not getting BRob when Soto and Pie flop, Theriot is still terrible and the Cubs have 3 black holes in their lineup.

 

In that case at the trade deadline we'll either be out of it or we'll be looking to upgrade shortstop, pitcher, or center field. I doubt 2nd base will be a black hole either way.

 

I know it's been mention before, but Hendry has to know to be careful about bidding against himself. I mean, he got beat down at the time for the Pierre trade. Outside of the Indians burp (which I believe proved that O's tried to drum up interests) of Guiterrez/Miller (if it was a real offer, why'd the passed?), no other team has been as seriously connected to Brian Roberts. Which leads me to believe, that most teams either do not Brian Roberts, don't want to pay the O's price for Roberts, or feel convince that Roberts is heading to the Cubs.

 

I completely agree with that.

[craig]

Mark me in the group who thinks that even were the Cubs to acquire Robert, that he would bat 2nd and Soriano 1st. That would be good.

 

1. Lou likes speed, and that would give your two fast base-stealers at the top.

2. Roberts is a good batsman, and lefty, so could be a natural hit-and-run guy at #2, also, on the rare occassion that Soriano is on 1st base.

3. Roberts is a good OBP guy, which batting directly in front of Lee and Aram would be ideal.

4. Roberts is lefty, a LouHendry priority. That breaks up the righties.

5. Non-HR baserunners are most likely to score when OBP guys are bunched rather than spread apart. Roberts-Lee-Aram-Fuku-Soto (or DeRosa when he's in there) would be sequencing the five best OBP guys at 2-6. Pie, Theriot, pitcher, and Soriano would bunch the poorer OBP guys.

6. If you didn't bat Sori 1st, where would you? Or, more to the point, where would Lou? Lou isn't going to bat Alf or lee 2nd. And he's not going to bunch lefties Roberts/Fuku 1st/2nd, even though they might be good OBP guys. Sori obviously doesn't belong at 3rd or 4th. If you put him 5th, that's doing the 3 RH power guys back-to-back-to-back, exactly contrary to what Lou wants. So if you take Alf out of leadoff, he'd drop to 6th. I'm fine with that. But I doubt they want to put the most expensive guy at #6. And if Alf and Roberts weren't 1-2, and they didn't want to put the two lefties Roberts-Fukudome 1st-2nd, then who fits into the two spot? If Sori was moved down, that would presumably leave Theriot 2nd. I don't think that will be how it goes.

 

Sorry for stupid post, since we don't have Roberts anyway and presumably are unlikely to acquire him.

[17 Seconds]

They do, but I've never advocated going after Roberts except for the fact the Cubs would likely put him at the top and Soriano in the middle.

 

Says who? People have only speculated this. I really don't think Soriano would be moved down even if they got Roberts, which at this point seems unlikely anyways.

 

That was an assumption... hence the bolded part.

 

So? You said "would likely", which is untrue. That's like me saying Roberts "would likely" bat cleanup if the Cubs got him.

 

Except that Roberts hitting leadoff over Soriano is likely, while Roberts hitting cleanup isn't.

 

That's my whole point. I don't think Soriano being moved from the leadoff spot would be likely. I think they'd bat Roberts Second.

[DeuceBaseman]

You can do a lot more with a team if you have a leadoff hitter. Soriano is not a leadoff hitter and we arent utilizing his power there. He rarely comes up with men on. We need him to bat 5th. Roberts is a great leadoff man, and would make our team much better because we move Soriano down in the order. If we got Chone Figgins and Roberts, then I wouldnt mind batting Roberts 2nd. The fact is that we need guys who get on base and are fast at the top of the order while the guys who hit for power in the 3-6 spots. I think our team would score a lot more runs with a lineup of Roberts, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Soto, Pie, Theriot rather than Soriano, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez, DeRosa, Soto, Pie, Theriot. Roberts would get on base. Fukudome would take enough pitches for Roberts to get a chance to steal 2nd. PLUS since Fukudome is lefty it would help Roberts have a better chance of stealing 2nd. Then Fukudome can single him in or somehow get him in scoring position for Lee, Ramirez, and Soriano to have a chance to drive in a few runs. I understand the argument of getting the best offensive player at each position, but that's impossible. Yeah I would like Utley over Roberts, but there really aren't that many other 2B I would take over Roberts, so he is one of the best at his position PLUS he bats leadoff.

[17 Seconds]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

[17 Seconds]

You can do a lot more with a team if you have a leadoff hitter. Soriano is not a leadoff hitter and we arent utilizing his power there. He rarely comes up with men on. We need him to bat 5th. Roberts is a great leadoff man, and would make our team much better because we move Soriano down in the order. If we got Chone Figgins and Roberts, then I wouldnt mind batting Roberts 2nd. The fact is that we need guys who get on base and are fast at the top of the order while the guys who hit for power in the 3-6 spots. I think our team would score a lot more runs with a lineup of Roberts, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Soto, Pie, Theriot rather than Soriano, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez, DeRosa, Soto, Pie, Theriot. Roberts would get on base. Fukudome would take enough pitches for Roberts to get a chance to steal 2nd. PLUS since Fukudome is lefty it would help Roberts have a better chance of stealing 2nd. Then Fukudome can single him in or somehow get him in scoring position for Lee, Ramirez, and Soriano to have a chance to drive in a few runs. I understand the argument of getting the best offensive player at each position, but that's impossible. Yeah I would like Utley over Roberts, but there really aren't that many other 2B I would take over Roberts, so he is one of the best at his position PLUS he bats leadoff.

 

Please just stop.

[jersey cubs fan]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

[davearm2]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off (OPS+'s of 129, 126, 135, and 123).

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off (OPS+'s of 100 and 109).

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

Edited February 13, 2008 by davearm2

[jersey cubs fan]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off.

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off.

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

 

cause and effect

 

your analysis is faulty

[17 Seconds]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off.

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off.

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

 

cause and effect

 

your analysis is faulty

 

Wow. Compelling arugment you made there.

 

If you choose to ignore both history and all logic when deciding where you'd like to bat Soriano, then go ahead. I want to have a good team. In order to have a good team, I believe it's necessary to use your players where they perform best. It's really not a difficult concept. I've yet to hear a a valid argument from people that insist Soriano will produce just as well down in the order other than "Nah, it's just a coincidence!", a claim that has quickly been refuted by evidence and logical reasoning.

[jersey cubs fan]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off.

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off.

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

 

cause and effect

 

your analysis is faulty

 

Wow. Compelling arugment you made there.

 

If you choose to ignore both history and all logic when deciding where you'd like to bat Soriano, then go ahead. I want to have a good team. In order to have a good team, I believe it's necessary to use your players where they perform best. It's really not a difficult concept. I've yet to hear a a valid argument from people that insist Soriano will produce just as well down in the order other than "Nah, it's just a coincidence!", a claim that has quickly been refuted by evidence and logical reasoning.

 

now I understand the problem. I prefer to have a bad team, unlike you, with your good team preferences. Now all makes sense.

[17 Seconds]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off.

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off.

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

 

cause and effect

 

your analysis is faulty

 

Wow. Compelling arugment you made there.

 

If you choose to ignore both history and all logic when deciding where you'd like to bat Soriano, then go ahead. I want to have a good team. In order to have a good team, I believe it's necessary to use your players where they perform best. It's really not a difficult concept. I've yet to hear a a valid argument from people that insist Soriano will produce just as well down in the order other than "Nah, it's just a coincidence!", a claim that has quickly been refuted by evidence and logical reasoning.

 

now I understand the problem. I prefer to have a bad team, unlike you, with your good team preferences. Now all makes sense.

 

Once again. you do nothing to back up your claims. Well done.

[jersey cubs fan]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off.

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off.

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

 

cause and effect

 

your analysis is faulty

 

Wow. Compelling arugment you made there.

 

If you choose to ignore both history and all logic when deciding where you'd like to bat Soriano, then go ahead. I want to have a good team. In order to have a good team, I believe it's necessary to use your players where they perform best. It's really not a difficult concept. I've yet to hear a a valid argument from people that insist Soriano will produce just as well down in the order other than "Nah, it's just a coincidence!", a claim that has quickly been refuted by evidence and logical reasoning.

 

now I understand the problem. I prefer to have a bad team, unlike you, with your good team preferences. Now all makes sense.

 

Once again. you do nothing to back up your claims. Well done.

 

I've provided all that I am able to provide.

[17 Seconds]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off.

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off.

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

 

cause and effect

 

your analysis is faulty

 

Wow. Compelling arugment you made there.

 

If you choose to ignore both history and all logic when deciding where you'd like to bat Soriano, then go ahead. I want to have a good team. In order to have a good team, I believe it's necessary to use your players where they perform best. It's really not a difficult concept. I've yet to hear a a valid argument from people that insist Soriano will produce just as well down in the order other than "Nah, it's just a coincidence!", a claim that has quickly been refuted by evidence and logical reasoning.

 

now I understand the problem. I prefer to have a bad team, unlike you, with your good team preferences. Now all makes sense.

 

Once again. you do nothing to back up your claims. Well done.

 

I've provided all that I am able to provide.

 

Which is nothing? Yeah, forgive me for not being overhwhelmed with the possibilty of you being correct.

[BRASKYS SCOTCH]

and here i thought no one was reading this thread anymore...

[E.J.]

I hate this thread.

[Sweet Swinging Billy]

Thought I'd try a little experiment. I didn't receive much of a response on the MacPhail on Angelos" thread but if I were to include it in the "Almighty Roberts" thread, then maybe, just maybe...some one would respond. Hmm.

 

--- On the subject of Peter Angelos possibly nixing a trade of Roberts to the Cubs, this is what Andy MacPhail said: "Everything I've asked Peter to do, he's given me," MacPhail said. "I'm sure there are going to be times where I'm not going to get everything I've asked for. But I'm batting about a thousand now. I can't ask for more. The one thing I keep mentioning to Peter is, 'Look, you've got to let it be on me. If I [mess] this up and I don't get enough back, it's on me, and he needs to get somebody else in here.' "

 

Interesting. I think it's exactly what many of us (if we were MacPhail), would say to Angelos. C'mon Petey, just say yes.

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/base ... 5844.story

 

---I know it's been reported that Roberts doesn't want to be part of any rebuilding process and is actually excited about possibly playing for the Cubs--- maybe he should tell Angelos what's on his mind.

 

PriorPower wrote: "Daddy, I don't want to play baseball for you anymore. You make it no fun for me."

[E.J.]

it has been said numerous times. Hendry is not trying to upgrade 2B as much as upgrade at leadoff. Soriano's legs are not what they used to be. He got on base 40 pts less than brob last year & stole far fewer bases. in an effort to save his legs, he wants to move him down in the order so he can be more in a driving in runs position than as a table setter. the addition of brob & fuko balance out a lineup by giving it much higher obp, better baserunners & the rbi producers in a better position to do just that. when you consider the rocks & indians are the only teams w/ glaring holes at 2B, I agree that it appears hendry is bidding against himself. I'd give andy a final offer & then move on to addressing starting pitching, SS, CF. There is no legit reason for mcfailure to hang onto brob other than to drive up the market. The o's blow & will for some time. Keeping a 30-yr old leadoff hitter that has admitted to roids....that will be a FA in 2 yrs...makes zero sense.

 

And the broken record skips again. One more time:

 

1. Leadoff is not a position.

2. You don't know what Hendry wants any more than any other fan.

 

Ok leadoff might not be a position, but it is still something you need to focus on when building your team. You need a leadoff hitter on your team just like you need a 2B. We have no leadoff hitters, so getting a leadoff hitter should be a top priority. Who cares if it is a position or not! It is a position in the batting order!

 

No you don't! Would the Cubs score more runs with Brian Roberts leading off or Chase Utley? You want to have good players and then sort them out. This is the argument that was used for the wonderful Juan Pierre.

 

You are obviously just a baseball fan. I am a baseball coach.

 

My highschool coach was terrible and had a full-time job working for UPS. You being a coach means absolutely nothing. Leadoff hitter is not a position. You don't need to go out and search for one. I'd take a Youkilis type batting 1st over a Juan Pierre type any day of the week. We need good hitters. We need people who can get on base and guys who can hit for power. We need guys who are going to give us high OPS. It doesn't matter how fast they are or where they bat in the lineup.

[Rob]

You can do a lot more with a team if you have a leadoff hitter. Soriano is not a leadoff hitter and we arent utilizing his power there. He rarely comes up with men on. We need him to bat 5th. Roberts is a great leadoff man, and would make our team much better because we move Soriano down in the order. If we got Chone Figgins and Roberts, then I wouldnt mind batting Roberts 2nd. The fact is that we need guys who get on base and are fast at the top of the order while the guys who hit for power in the 3-6 spots. I think our team would score a lot more runs with a lineup of Roberts, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Soto, Pie, Theriot rather than Soriano, Fukudome, Lee, Ramirez, DeRosa, Soto, Pie, Theriot. Roberts would get on base. Fukudome would take enough pitches for Roberts to get a chance to steal 2nd. PLUS since Fukudome is lefty it would help Roberts have a better chance of stealing 2nd. Then Fukudome can single him in or somehow get him in scoring position for Lee, Ramirez, and Soriano to have a chance to drive in a few runs. I understand the argument of getting the best offensive player at each position, but that's impossible. Yeah I would like Utley over Roberts, but there really aren't that many other 2B I would take over Roberts, so he is one of the best at his position PLUS he bats leadoff.

 

Let's try an exercise in logic here... Take a look at this team...

 

C - Victor Martinez

1B - Albert Pujols

2B - Jeff Kent

SS - Miguel Tejada

3B - Miguel Cabrera

LF - Manny Ramirez

CF - Nick Swisher

RF - Vladamir Guerrero

 

This team can absolutely mash, but is perhaps the single worst team on the basepaths in the history of baseball. Now replace Manny Ramirez with Juan Pierre and slot that bad mofo at leadoff. Does this team score more or less runs?

 

Moral of the story is, you concentrate on getting the best eight players on the field that you possibly can. Then you worry about what order to bat them in. Trying to acquire batters based on where they fit in the lineup is bass ackwards, and is never a good idea.

[David]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

No, it doesn't need to stop. You're ignoring his years with the Yankees at leadoff. Furthermore, you're ignoring his past shows a history of struggling in RISP situations.

 

When it comes to moving Soriano around, I view it as a choice. You can choose

 

1. To have a .890 OPS #1 hitter.

 

2. To have an .810-.820 OPS #3-5 hitter.

 

I choose #1.

 

What does need to stop is trying to convince ourselves that Soriano is something he isn't. I don't know why we have to be so stubborn on this issue. You don't see the Indians trying to force Casey Blake into an RBI slot when he isn't that guy. You didn't see the Red Sox pushing Bill Mueller to hit 2nd when he was much more comfortable 8th.

 

But people here won't be happy until we see Soriano hit .260 with a .310 OBP and 28 home runs, his meaningless 100 RBI, and his near-record LOB total. Only then will we be getting our $17 million a year worth.

 

What is the difference between Brian Roberts hitting 1st and Brian Roberts hitting 2nd? I'd like to know why people have a mental block on this. They start sweating profusely and stammering. "Why... Roberts can't hit 2nd. Because... because... he's a LEADOFF MAN. It would cause a rip in the space-time continuum!"

 

Soriano does his best hitting with the bases empty.

 

 

Yea, I really don't care about where any of these guys get lined up. It wouldn't bother me one bit if Roberts was acquired and Soriano remained in the leadoff slot (other than the fact that I'd still have to hear the idiots on sports radio complaining that Soriano is hitting there). I'm merely pointing out that people are incorrectly confusing correlation with causation in the case of Soriano's leadoff splits. It's flawed and faulty logic.

 

Roberts doesn't NEED to hit leadoff if he's here. I just feel, given the Cubs old-school braintrust, that it's likely he would. Roberts fits that mold that old timey baseball types get their panties wet about. Hendry and Lou are old-timey baseball types. They dream about having guys like him at leadoff. If they were just looking for a two hitter, they'd be fine with DeRosa. Just my opinion.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, though. Maybe they want Roberts just because he can hit lefty (vs. righties), and they'll still hit Soriano leadoff if they do get him. Hendry did proclaim his strong desire to get more lefty bats in the lineup early on this offseason. Either way, I couldn't care less where any of our hitters hit as long as Pie and Theriot aren't near the top (unfortunately, Theriot will be, at least at first).

Edited February 13, 2008 by David

[Tracer Bullet]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off.

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off.

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

 

cause and effect

 

your analysis is faulty

 

Wow. Compelling arugment you made there.

 

If you choose to ignore both history and all logic when deciding where you'd like to bat Soriano, then go ahead. I want to have a good team. In order to have a good team, I believe it's necessary to use your players where they perform best. It's really not a difficult concept. I've yet to hear a a valid argument from people that insist Soriano will produce just as well down in the order other than "Nah, it's just a coincidence!", a claim that has quickly been refuted by evidence and logical reasoning.

 

now I understand the problem. I prefer to have a bad team, unlike you, with your good team preferences. Now all makes sense.

 

I missed jersey...where have you been?

 

Jon had a fantastic post about all of this in one of the Soriano threads early last season. He broke it down all beautifully and it showed pretty clearly that there wasn't a significant difference between Soriano's production batting leadoff and elsewhere. I tend to agree b/c, like jersey stated, right now some people are finding causation when it's just not there.

 

Maybe this is something Meph could use his powers of statistical analysis to put to bed...

[17 Seconds]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

No, it doesn't need to stop. You're ignoring his years with the Yankees at leadoff. Furthermore, you're ignoring his past shows a history of struggling in RISP situations.

 

When it comes to moving Soriano around, I view it as a choice. You can choose

 

1. To have a .890 OPS #1 hitter.

 

2. To have an .810-.820 OPS #3-5 hitter.

 

I choose #1.

 

What does need to stop is trying to convince ourselves that Soriano is something he isn't. I don't know why we have to be so stubborn on this issue. You don't see the Indians trying to force Casey Blake into an RBI slot when he isn't that guy. You didn't see the Red Sox pushing Bill Mueller to hit 2nd when he was much more comfortable 8th.

 

But people here won't be happy until we see Soriano hit .260 with a .310 OBP and 28 home runs, his meaningless 100 RBI, and his near-record LOB total. Only then will we be getting our $17 million a year worth.

 

What is the difference between Brian Roberts hitting 1st and Brian Roberts hitting 2nd? I'd like to know why people have a mental block on this. They start sweating profusely and stammering. "Why... Roberts can't hit 2nd. Because... because... he's a LEADOFF MAN. It would cause a rip in the space-time continuum!"

 

Soriano does his best hitting with the bases empty.

 

I'm merely pointing out that people are incorrectly confusing correlation with causation in the case of Soriano's leadoff splits. It's flawed and faulty logic.

 

 

 

No, you made the statement that Soriano's career leadoff numbers were only so much better than his non-leadoff numbers because of a monster year in 2006, which is flat out wrong. Even if Soriano in 2006 only put up the typical numbers he puts up in years where he leads off, the career differences would still be very pronounced. It sounds to me like you were unaware that Soriano had hit leadoff in previous years. Now you're realizing that he did, and are trying to cover it up but saying the above statement, which doesn't even make sense with what you originally said.

[17 Seconds]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm going to have to agree with david.

Soriano hit 7/8/9 as a rookie with the Yankees.

 

His 2nd and 3rd years in NY he led off.

 

Then he spent two years in Texas, hitting primarily 3rd one year, and primarly 5th the other.

 

In '06 and '07, with WAS and CHC, he was returned to the leadoff role.

 

Amongst the six after his rookie year, Soriano's four best years were the four he spent leading off.

 

His two worst years were the two he spent in Texas, not leading off.

 

The above points are exacerbated when one considers that Soriano's home parks in NY and WAS were pitcher-friendly, and his home park in TEX is hitter-friendly.

 

The obvious takeaway here is that this whole "move him down in the order because he's a power hitter not a leadoff hitter" strategy has been done before, by Texas' braintrust. It failed.

 

So I'm wondering why some are so intent on abandoning that which has worked repeatedly, in favor of that which has failed repeatedly.

 

cause and effect

 

your analysis is faulty

 

Wow. Compelling arugment you made there.

 

If you choose to ignore both history and all logic when deciding where you'd like to bat Soriano, then go ahead. I want to have a good team. In order to have a good team, I believe it's necessary to use your players where they perform best. It's really not a difficult concept. I've yet to hear a a valid argument from people that insist Soriano will produce just as well down in the order other than "Nah, it's just a coincidence!", a claim that has quickly been refuted by evidence and logical reasoning.

 

now I understand the problem. I prefer to have a bad team, unlike you, with your good team preferences. Now all makes sense.

 

 

Jon had a fantastic post about all of this in one of the Soriano threads early last season. He broke it down all beautifully and it showed pretty clearly that there wasn't a significant difference between Soriano's production batting leadoff and elsewhere.

 

Yeah, I definately don't see how that's possible, since all the other numbers pretty clearly show a significant dropoff. Let's see this post.

 

I honestly don't see why people find it so hard to believe that he's not as good in the middle of the order. Even if you didn't look at numbers and just watched him play, you could see why there is a problem with him batting there. In his career he has been a very bad hitter with runners on, and especially runners in scoring position. Compared to his overall career numbers, everything drops dramatically, especially his power. Did any of you actually watch the games last year? Watching him bat in situations with guyson what painful.

 

Breaking ball in the zone- foul

Breaking ball in the dirt- strike 2 swinging

High fastball- strike 3 swinging

 

So we've established that he's not a good hitter with guys on. So let me think, where would be the worst place to bat him? I know, how about right in the middle of the lineup, so he can come up to bat with runners on all the time!

 

Yeah, that makes no sense to me.

Edited February 13, 2008 by 17 Seconds