MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[ThePenguin11]

an interesting thing about that 3 HR game....was he challenged because he had Pie batting behind him? In other words, you put a better hitter behind him (Roberts, Fukodome, etc.) does he see more fastballs or less? In turn, moving him down to #5 in the order likely puts a Pie-like hitter behind him, meaning the pitchers are more likely or less likely to throw him fastballs?

 

Was not Lee/Ramirez batting behind Pie? It's not just about the one batter behind him.

[Sammy Sofa]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

[DeuceBaseman]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

Oops, you're wrong again.

 

How can I be wrong on my opinion? I think I know what I want. And if I would rather have Roberts and Theriot then thats a fact. I cant be wrong about that. I would like to have Roberts and DeRosa, but I dont think they would move Mark to SS.

[UMFan83]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

[David]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

Question... why do you fixate so much on OBP but not on SLG at all? OBP is extremely important...slightly more important than SLG, actually. But SLG is also very important (in terms of the more traditional stats) in terms of determining a player's offensive worth. Almost as important as OBP.

 

And seriously. Greene & DeRosa > Theriot & Roberts

 

Do you realize how much better Greene is than Theriot in every facet of the game?

 

Roberts over DeRosa is a nice upgrade (in fact, I've made the case on here that it's a bigger upgrade than some people want to give credit for), but not nearly as significant as Greene over Theriot.

Edited February 13, 2008 by David

[DeuceBaseman]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

He would make us better, but I think Roberts would make us even more better. I dont think we need a low average, low OBP, low in the batting order HR guy on this team. I think we need a High average, high obp, lots of speed top of the order guy.

[David]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

Oops, you're wrong again.

 

How can I be wrong on my opinion? I think I know what I want. And if I would rather have Roberts and Theriot then thats a fact. I cant be wrong about that. I would like to have Roberts and DeRosa, but I dont think they would move Mark to SS.

 

The fact may be that you want what you want. The fact also might be that what you want is misguided.

[C.C.]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

Calling Meph

[inari]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

He would make us better, but I think Roberts would make us even more better. I dont think we need a low average, low OBP, low in the batting order HR guy on this team. I think we need a High average, high obp, lots of speed top of the order guy.

 

Average and speed are basically unimportant.

[DenverCubs]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

Oops, you're wrong again.

 

How can I be wrong on my opinion? I think I know what I want. And if I would rather have Roberts and Theriot then thats a fact. I cant be wrong about that. I would like to have Roberts and DeRosa, but I dont think they would move Mark to SS.

I think I am taller than Shaq...there...another wrong opinion.

[David]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

He would make us better, but I think Roberts would make us even more better. I dont think we need a low average, low OBP, low in the batting order HR guy on this team. I think we need a High average, high obp, lots of speed top of the order guy.

 

And this is where the problem with fixating on lineup positioning lies. This is the point everyone is trying to make. You don't take Roberts & Theriot over DeRosa & Greene because Roberts & Theriot fits more nicely in some pre-conceived ideas about lineup roles.

[DeuceBaseman]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

[Ryno12]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

Yes, Greene brings a similar OBP, significantly better SLG, and significantly better defense. Thus making him a much more valuable player. The fact is, Greene is a bigger upgrade from Theriot than Roberts is from DeRosa.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Ryno12

[DeuceBaseman]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

Oops, you're wrong again.

 

How can I be wrong on my opinion? I think I know what I want. And if I would rather have Roberts and Theriot then thats a fact. I cant be wrong about that. I would like to have Roberts and DeRosa, but I dont think they would move Mark to SS.

I think I am taller than Shaq...there...another wrong opinion.

 

No because you can actual test that and prove that. If you said "I think I am a better basketball player than Shaq." Then you wouldnt be wrong, because that is your opinion that can't be tested with 100% accuracy. Just stop with this nonsense.

[ThePenguin11]

And this is where the problem with fixating on lineup positioning lies. This is the point everyone is trying to make. You don't take Roberts & Theriot over DeRosa & Greene because Roberts & Theriot fits more nicely in some pre-conceived ideas about lineup roles.

 

 

I've always been against having Soriano bat first until very recently I heard a good argument in favor of it. Not sure who to quote as it could have been Murph or Stone. It's actually a lot more easy to understand than merely breaking down the statistics because its more tangible.

 

The point that was made was that Soriano batting #1 gave him countless opportunities to see fastballs and not get pitched around with curves and sliders in the dirt constantly. Soriano is being protected by batting first. He's protected by our 2,3,4 hitters who have typically been our best hitters (especially Lee and Ramirez).

 

If Lou was to move Soriano to the fifth spot where he'd be protected by Theriot, Soto, Pie, then pitchers could throw him junk all day and let him get himself out. There'd be no reason to keep trying to pepper fastballs by him all day.

 

Honestly, if I was an opposing manager, I would never change my approach with Soriano because I don't think he has the discipline to not swing at the junk pitches even in the 1 spot. However, teams still throw him the fastballs and he keeps hitting them. Think about how many times you saw Soriano turn on a breaking ball last year (even a hanger for that matter). It's a rare occurance. He, like Sosa was, is very much a mistake-hitter. If you accidently leave a fastball middle-in or thereabouts...he turns his hands on it and puts it in the left field bleachers.

 

Personally, I think his best spot in the lineup with this information in mind is #2. Either way you slice it he needs to be protected so whether he bats 1 or 2 is becoming more irrelevant to me. But in a perfect world I'd bat them Roberts, Soriano, Lee, Ramirez in order to give Soriano the occasional additional RBI opportunity.

 

This seems to better explain why Soriano needs to be at the top of the order, doesn't it?

 

I would like to restate my point about why even though Soriano may not be the ideal #1 or #2 hitter, it's the best place to put him. I keep hearing how leadoff hitter is not a position and such, I agree to some degree. The reasons why Soriano and Roberts would need to be at the top of the order are different.

 

1. Soriano needs to be at/near the top to best suit his hitting ability. See more fastballs - hit more doubles/homeruns. His walk/strikeout totals won't vary, so his OBP will remain the same, but he will see many more pitches to drive increasing his SLG%/OPS numbers substantially. He would be just plain more effective with good hitters to protect him.

 

2. Roberts needs to bat at the top, 1 or 2 doesn't really matter which, as long as he is a table setter for Lee and Ramirez.

Edited February 13, 2008 by ThePenguin11

[David]

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

Look at Greene's splits away from PetCo park. A case can be made that, for a SS, he's actually quite a bit better than average to below average at the plate when he's not playing at the best pitchers park in baseball. He's a fly-ball hitter and that park just is not kind to his numbers.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

Well, that explains it. We're obviously talking about 2 different Ryan Theriots here.

 

Come on, you can't compare them. Greene is right about dead-on average offensively (and that's with half his games in an extreme pitcher's park), Theriot is very much below average. Add in the obvious defensive advantage, and it's really not even close at all.

[DeuceBaseman]

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

Look at Greene's splits away from PetCo park. A case can be made that, for a SS, he's actually quite a bit better than average to below average at the plate when he's not playing at the best pitchers park in baseball. He's a fly-ball hitter and that park just is not kind to his numbers.

 

Or he was better on the road because he likes when people are yelling at him and hassling him. Or he doesnt feel pressure on the road like he does at home. No one knows. I agree that PetCo is a harder park to hit HR's in, but no one is for certain that he would put up his road numbers all the time if he was on the Cubs.

[UMFan83]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

[Burtonbell]

 

Look at Greene's splits away from PetCo park. A case can be made that, for a SS, he's actually quite a bit better than average to below average at the plate when he's not playing at the best pitchers park in baseball. He's a fly-ball hitter and that park just is not kind to his numbers.

 

Or he was better on the road because he likes when people are yelling at him and hassling him. Or he doesnt feel pressure on the road like he does at home. No one knows. I agree that PetCo is a harder park to hit HR's in, but no one is for certain that he would put up his road numbers all the time if he was on the Cubs.

 

My head hurts

[DenverCubs]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

Oops, you're wrong again.

 

How can I be wrong on my opinion? I think I know what I want. And if I would rather have Roberts and Theriot then thats a fact. I cant be wrong about that. I would like to have Roberts and DeRosa, but I dont think they would move Mark to SS.

I think I am taller than Shaq...there...another wrong opinion.

 

No because you can actual test that and prove that. If you said "I think I am a better basketball player than Shaq." Then you wouldnt be wrong, because that is your opinion that can't be tested with 100% accuracy. Just stop with this nonsense.

It's not nonsense, I was just being a prick to prove a point. Opinions can be wrong.

Nothing is 100%, but Green + DeRosa is very probably a more productive duo that Theriot + Roberts. Theriot could have a great year and hit like 20 HR's with a .360 OBP. It is very unlikely. I think you are underestimating how below average Theriot is.

[DeuceBaseman]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

 

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

[DenverCubs]

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

Look at Greene's splits away from PetCo park. A case can be made that, for a SS, he's actually quite a bit better than average to below average at the plate when he's not playing at the best pitchers park in baseball. He's a fly-ball hitter and that park just is not kind to his numbers.

 

Or he was better on the road because he likes when people are yelling at him and hassling him. Or he doesnt feel pressure on the road like he does at home. No one knows. I agree that PetCo is a harder park to hit HR's in, but no one is for certain that he would put up his road numbers all the time if he was on the Cubs.

Stop doing that. We're trying to argue for what's probable, not definite.

[The Voice of Reason]

Wasn't this thread, a really long time ago, about a possible Brian Roberts trade? Sorry, I always struggled with Ancient History back in the day.

[UMFan83]

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

 

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better?

 

Can you explain why youd rather have:

 

Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B

 

vs.

 

Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B?

 

How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

 

You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB??

 

No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

 

So if player A has 20 HRs and player B has 40 SB but gets CS 120 times, they are as valuable in that league?