MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[UK1679666180]

The Cubs need a guy who can get on-base, I don't know if that's a leadoff hitter or just a trait they need more of in their hitters.

 

Brian Roberts might be more of the stereotypical leadoff hitter, but someone like Youkilis would do more hitting leadoff than Roberts.

[17 Seconds]

it has been said numerous times. Hendry is not trying to upgrade 2B as much as upgrade at leadoff.

 

Just stop it.

 

he wants to move him down in the order so he can be more in a driving in runs position than as a table setter.

 

If he got Roberts SOriano will probably still bat leadoff.

 

 the addition of brob & fuko balance out a lineup by giving it much higher obp,

 

Wait, how does Roberts give the lineup a better OBP than Derosa? Explain that.

[17 Seconds]

The Cubs need a guy who can get on-base, I don't know if that's a leadoff hitter or just a trait they need more of in their hitters.

 

Derosa got on base just as much as Roberts last season.

[inari]

Wait, we have an ignore users function now? Sweet!

[DeuceBaseman]

it has been said numerous times. Hendry is not trying to upgrade 2B as much as upgrade at leadoff. Soriano's legs are not what they used to be. He got on base 40 pts less than brob last year & stole far fewer bases. in an effort to save his legs, he wants to move him down in the order so he can be more in a driving in runs position than as a table setter. the addition of brob & fuko balance out a lineup by giving it much higher obp, better baserunners & the rbi producers in a better position to do just that. when you consider the rocks & indians are the only teams w/ glaring holes at 2B, I agree that it appears hendry is bidding against himself. I'd give andy a final offer & then move on to addressing starting pitching, SS, CF. There is no legit reason for mcfailure to hang onto brob other than to drive up the market. The o's blow & will for some time. Keeping a 30-yr old leadoff hitter that has admitted to roids....that will be a FA in 2 yrs...makes zero sense.

 

And the broken record skips again. One more time:

 

1. Leadoff is not a position.

2. You don't know what Hendry wants any more than any other fan.

 

Ok leadoff might not be a position, but it is still something you need to focus on when building your team. You need a leadoff hitter on your team just like you need a 2B. We have no leadoff hitters, so getting a leadoff hitter should be a top priority. Who cares if it is a position or not! It is a position in the batting order!

 

No you don't! Would the Cubs score more runs with Brian Roberts leading off or Chase Utley? You want to have good players and then sort them out. This is the argument that was used for the wonderful Juan Pierre.

 

You are obviously just a baseball fan. I am a baseball coach. It has been researched for years. Different spots in the order serve different purposes. Of course the Cubs would probably score more runs with Chase Utley batting leadoff rather than Roberts because he has a higher OBP. BUT, if you have Chase Utley on your team, you wouldn't bat him leadoff cuz you aren't utilizing his power and rbi potential. A leadoff hitter needs to take pitches, get on base, and be fast. Then the number 2 hitter should be able to control the bat well. Make a lot of contact, very rarely strike out, and place the ball wherever he wants. Then the number 3-4-5 hitters need to have power and drive those 2 guys in. This is the typical way the batting order should be structured. Soriano hit a ton of solo HR's last year. If he batted after Roberts, then a lot of those solo HR's would turn into 2 run shots. If roberts gets a single then soriano hits a HR we have two runs. If Soriano hits a HR then Roberts singles, we still only have 1 run. You can't just put anyone at leadoff.

[UK1679666180]

The Cubs need a guy who can get on-base, I don't know if that's a leadoff hitter or just a trait they need more of in their hitters.

 

Derosa got on base just as much as Roberts last season.

 

Derosa isn't being considered hitting leadoff though.

[17 Seconds]

The Cubs need a guy who can get on-base, I don't know if that's a leadoff hitter or just a trait they need more of in their hitters.

 

Derosa got on base just as much as Roberts last season.

 

Derosa isn't being considered hitting leadoff though.

 

You said they need a guy who can get on base.

[David]

it has been said numerous times. Hendry is not trying to upgrade 2B as much as upgrade at leadoff. Soriano's legs are not what they used to be. He got on base 40 pts less than brob last year & stole far fewer bases. in an effort to save his legs, he wants to move him down in the order so he can be more in a driving in runs position than as a table setter. the addition of brob & fuko balance out a lineup by giving it much higher obp, better baserunners & the rbi producers in a better position to do just that. when you consider the rocks & indians are the only teams w/ glaring holes at 2B, I agree that it appears hendry is bidding against himself. I'd give andy a final offer & then move on to addressing starting pitching, SS, CF. There is no legit reason for mcfailure to hang onto brob other than to drive up the market. The o's blow & will for some time. Keeping a 30-yr old leadoff hitter that has admitted to roids....that will be a FA in 2 yrs...makes zero sense.

 

And the broken record skips again. One more time:

 

1. Leadoff is not a position.

2. You don't know what Hendry wants any more than any other fan.

 

Ok leadoff might not be a position, but it is still something you need to focus on when building your team. You need a leadoff hitter on your team just like you need a 2B. We have no leadoff hitters, so getting a leadoff hitter should be a top priority. Who cares if it is a position or not! It is a position in the batting order!

 

No you don't! Would the Cubs score more runs with Brian Roberts leading off or Chase Utley? You want to have good players and then sort them out. This is the argument that was used for the wonderful Juan Pierre.

 

You are obviously just a baseball fan. I am a baseball coach. It has been researched for years. Different spots in the order serve different purposes. Of course the Cubs would probably score more runs with Chase Utley batting leadoff rather than Roberts because he has a higher OBP. BUT, if you have Chase Utley on your team, you wouldn't bat him leadoff cuz you aren't utilizing his power and rbi potential. A leadoff hitter needs to take pitches, get on base, and be fast. Then the number 2 hitter should be able to control the bat well. Make a lot of contact, very rarely strike out, and place the ball wherever he wants. Then the number 3-4-5 hitters need to have power and drive those 2 guys in. This is the typical way the batting order should be structured. Soriano hit a ton of solo HR's last year. If he batted after Roberts, then a lot of those solo HR's would turn into 2 run shots. If roberts gets a single then soriano hits a HR we have two runs. If Soriano hits a HR then Roberts singles, we still only have 1 run. You can't just put anyone at leadoff.

 

 

Aside from the fact that you basically admitted that your logic is completely wrong by conceding that the team would score more runs with Utley at "leadoff" (think about it, really hard - If we had no prototypical "leadoff hitter" but had Utley bat first, the team would score more runs... Oh, and it has nothing to do with his spot in the order and everything to do with the fact that you're talking about having a better hitter at one of your positions), I love the irony of the bolded. You might want to do some research yourself and look up what contemporary studies say about lineup positioning.

 

 

You get the best bats you can at every position, and THEN you worry about where to hit them.

[UK1679666180]

They do, but I've never advocated going after Roberts except for the fact the Cubs would likely put him at the top and Soriano in the middle.

 

I do question how much Derosa's approach might change if they hit him at the top.

[DeuceBaseman]

No its not. I'm saying that if Utley was on our team right now batting leadoff then wed score more runs than if Roberts was on our team batting leadoff. But if Utley was on our team batting 3rd we'd score more runs than if he was on our team batting leadoff. Of course wed score more runs if a guy with a higher OBP was leadoff, but we arent utilizing him there cuz they can drive in runs lower in the order. And Roberts is a better bat than DeRosa. Edited February 13, 2008 by DeuceBaseman

[17 Seconds]

They do, but I've never advocated going after Roberts except for the fact the Cubs would likely put him at the top and Soriano in the middle.

 

Says who? People have only speculated this. I really don't think Soriano would be moved down even if they got Roberts, which at this point seems unlikely anyways.

[17 Seconds]

No its not. I'm saying that if Utley was on our team right now batting leadoff then wed score more runs than if Roberts was on our team batting leadoff. But if Utley was on our team batting 3rd we'd score more runs than if he was on our team batting leadoff. Of course wed score more runs if a guy with a higher OBP was leadoff, but we arent utilizing him there cuz they can drive in runs lower in the order.

 

You keep leaving out one key fact: that Utley has proven he can produce in the middle of the lineup. Soriano has not.

[inari]

it has been said numerous times. Hendry is not trying to upgrade 2B as much as upgrade at leadoff. Soriano's legs are not what they used to be. He got on base 40 pts less than brob last year & stole far fewer bases. in an effort to save his legs, he wants to move him down in the order so he can be more in a driving in runs position than as a table setter. the addition of brob & fuko balance out a lineup by giving it much higher obp, better baserunners & the rbi producers in a better position to do just that. when you consider the rocks & indians are the only teams w/ glaring holes at 2B, I agree that it appears hendry is bidding against himself. I'd give andy a final offer & then move on to addressing starting pitching, SS, CF. There is no legit reason for mcfailure to hang onto brob other than to drive up the market. The o's blow & will for some time. Keeping a 30-yr old leadoff hitter that has admitted to roids....that will be a FA in 2 yrs...makes zero sense.

 

And the broken record skips again. One more time:

 

1. Leadoff is not a position.

2. You don't know what Hendry wants any more than any other fan.

 

Ok leadoff might not be a position, but it is still something you need to focus on when building your team. You need a leadoff hitter on your team just like you need a 2B. We have no leadoff hitters, so getting a leadoff hitter should be a top priority. Who cares if it is a position or not! It is a position in the batting order!

 

No you don't! Would the Cubs score more runs with Brian Roberts leading off or Chase Utley? You want to have good players and then sort them out. This is the argument that was used for the wonderful Juan Pierre.

 

You are obviously just a baseball fan. I am a baseball coach. It has been researched for years. Different spots in the order serve different purposes. Of course the Cubs would probably score more runs with Chase Utley batting leadoff rather than Roberts because he has a higher OBP. BUT, if you have Chase Utley on your team, you wouldn't bat him leadoff cuz you aren't utilizing his power and rbi potential. A leadoff hitter needs to take pitches, get on base, and be fast. Then the number 2 hitter should be able to control the bat well. Make a lot of contact, very rarely strike out, and place the ball wherever he wants. Then the number 3-4-5 hitters need to have power and drive those 2 guys in. This is the typical way the batting order should be structured. Soriano hit a ton of solo HR's last year. If he batted after Roberts, then a lot of those solo HR's would turn into 2 run shots. If roberts gets a single then soriano hits a HR we have two runs. If Soriano hits a HR then Roberts singles, we still only have 1 run. You can't just put anyone at leadoff.

 

We're not worthy. :roll:

[UK1679666180]

They do, but I've never advocated going after Roberts except for the fact the Cubs would likely put him at the top and Soriano in the middle.

 

Says who? People have only speculated this. I really don't think Soriano would be moved down even if they got Roberts, which at this point seems unlikely anyways.

 

That was an assumption... hence the bolded part.

[17 Seconds]

They do, but I've never advocated going after Roberts except for the fact the Cubs would likely put him at the top and Soriano in the middle.

 

Says who? People have only speculated this. I really don't think Soriano would be moved down even if they got Roberts, which at this point seems unlikely anyways.

 

That was an assumption... hence the bolded part.

 

So? You said "would likely", which is untrue. That's like me saying Roberts "would likely" bat cleanup if the Cubs got him.

[UK1679666180]

They do, but I've never advocated going after Roberts except for the fact the Cubs would likely put him at the top and Soriano in the middle.

 

Says who? People have only speculated this. I really don't think Soriano would be moved down even if they got Roberts, which at this point seems unlikely anyways.

 

That was an assumption... hence the bolded part.

 

So? You said "would likely", which is untrue. That's like me saying Roberts "would likely" bat cleanup if the Cubs got him.

 

Ok, since you assume your opinion is fact.

 

Why would think the Cubs would keep Soriano at leadoff if they acquired Roberts?

Edited February 13, 2008 by UK

[David]

They do, but I've never advocated going after Roberts except for the fact the Cubs would likely put him at the top and Soriano in the middle.

 

Says who? People have only speculated this. I really don't think Soriano would be moved down even if they got Roberts, which at this point seems unlikely anyways.

 

That was an assumption... hence the bolded part.

 

So? You said "would likely", which is untrue. That's like me saying Roberts "would likely" bat cleanup if the Cubs got him.

 

Except that Roberts hitting leadoff over Soriano is likely, while Roberts hitting cleanup isn't.

[David]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

[David]

No its not. I'm saying that if Utley was on our team right now batting leadoff then wed score more runs than if Roberts was on our team batting leadoff. But if Utley was on our team batting 3rd we'd score more runs than if he was on our team batting leadoff. Of course wed score more runs if a guy with a higher OBP was leadoff, but we arent utilizing him there cuz they can drive in runs lower in the order. And Roberts is a better bat than DeRosa.

 

 

It's not just because he has a higher OBP, although that is a big part of it. It's because he's an overall more productive hitter. He gets on base more and he hits for better power. The two of those things = more runs. Doesn't matter where in the lineup.

 

The point about Roberts being better than DeRosa is completely irrelevant. Don't veer off topic. The argument is about your suggestion that you have to take the leadoff "position" into account when putting together a team. You don't. You have to get the best hitters you can at every position. Then you worry about where to line them up.

[Post Count Padder]

Leadoff has been dubbed a position, but it really isn't. You get someone at the top of the order who walks, makes contact, and works the count and you're good. It doesn't have to be a GRIT-ty who can swipe a bag or two. Scott Hatterberg and Kevin Youkilis have batted "leadoff" in the past, successfully.

[CubColtPacer]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

I get your point, but at this point in his career even if you took out his 2006 numbers entirely he would still have quite a pronounced split between his leadoff numbers and everything else.

[badnews]

This whole "Soriano can only hit in the leadoff spot" crap needs to stop. Soriano just happened to be batting leadoff when he had his career year in 2006. His OBP that year was also artificially inflated by an absurd amount of intentional walks in that horrendous lineup. That is why his leadoff splits compared to when he was hitting in the middle are so pronounced.

 

No, it doesn't need to stop. You're ignoring his years with the Yankees at leadoff. Furthermore, you're ignoring his past shows a history of struggling in RISP situations.

 

When it comes to moving Soriano around, I view it as a choice. You can choose

 

1. To have a .890 OPS #1 hitter.

 

2. To have an .810-.820 OPS #3-5 hitter.

 

I choose #1.

 

What does need to stop is trying to convince ourselves that Soriano is something he isn't. I don't know why we have to be so stubborn on this issue. You don't see the Indians trying to force Casey Blake into an RBI slot when he isn't that guy. You didn't see the Red Sox pushing Bill Mueller to hit 2nd when he was much more comfortable 8th.

 

But people here won't be happy until we see Soriano hit .260 with a .310 OBP and 28 home runs, his meaningless 100 RBI, and his near-record LOB total. Only then will we be getting our $17 million a year worth.

 

What is the difference between Brian Roberts hitting 1st and Brian Roberts hitting 2nd? I'd like to know why people have a mental block on this. They start sweating profusely and stammering. "Why... Roberts can't hit 2nd. Because... because... he's a LEADOFF MAN. It would cause a rip in the space-time continuum!"

 

Soriano does his best hitting with the bases empty.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, the Roberts arguers should explain that. If the big deal is having him get on before Lee and Ramirez, doesn't he still do that hitting #2?

[badnews]

Here's a list of 2b I'd rather have than Brian Roberts:

 

Chase Utley

Robinson Cano

Rickie Weeks

Orlando Hudson

Brandon Phillips

Howie Kendrick

 

I say that assuming equal salary on all of them. We're pretending Howie Kendrick makes $5 million and Roberts makes $5 million.

 

I call it a draw on Placido Polanco. I don't think Pedroia is better than Roberts but Roberts doesn't blow him out of the water either.

 

Utley is the only player among 2nd basemen that has more total win shares than roberts in the past three years.

 

That takes into account Roberts' not-going-to-happen-again 2005, and it doesn't really tell the whole story. Most of the guys who are better than him having been playing that long.

 

 

Huh? He may never hit as many HRs like he did in 2005 but he did you know have 24 total WS last year. Compared to 28 in 2005.

 

Weeks and Kendrick seriously call me when they actually live up to their top prospect label. One can't stay healthy and the other has been a relative bust.

 

He played more in 2007.

 

Weeks and Kendrick, yes, seriously. Weeks took more walks than Roberts has every other year except 2007 in much less time, 78 walks in how many games? Wow. He also outhomered Roberts in how many fewer plate appearances? I'll take Weeks' next 5 years over Roberts' next 5 weeks.

 

Howie Kendrick has been a bust? Oh yeah. He only hit .322 this season at the age of 23/24, what a sack of crap that guy is. After the ASB he was a .357/.854 OPS hitter.

 

I wish the Cubs had more "flops" like that.

[Not Sure]

I think that a coach looks at leadoff as a position while a GM doesn't (or shouldn't)