MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[RammyFanny]

Thanks for the interview tibit CCP, didn't know that.

 

I asked the guy on PSD about the starters we've inquired about and he replied:

Well i believe ABTY brought up Burnett's name. He was definetely correct on that one. IMO, thats who we end up getting, but you never know.

I can't really go into details on that one, but I know they covet Derosa, like ABTY said.

I'm a little skeptical because of the price tag on Burnett money wise, but DeRosa's salary would reduce it some, and of course they've been linked to Dempster alot, so maybe.

[David]

Does anyone else wish Soriano hadn't gotten hurt and had stuck in CF? Then we could go Murton, Soriano, Fuku this year. Sori's bat would be much more valuable as a CF. Oh, well.

[inari]

I'm quite confident Soriano would have been an adequate defender in center. It's a shame we pulled the plug so quickly.

[Bote McBoteface]

Macphail covets Pie.

 

 

So does Hendry.

 

 

 

 

(because he's fat.)

[ctcf]

I'd be pumped if Burnett and Roberts were the rest of our off season.

[SouthSideRyan]

I would say with just about 100% certainty we would add another starter. Whether or not it's a good starter, I don't know, but it's already been said that Lou is very hesitant on Dempster in the rotation, so i'm sure him and Jim have something else in store. Keep in mind if the rumored deal happened, we still have Murton and EPatt to use in trade bait while only trading a whopping one prospect in the previous deal.

 

Eric Patterson doesn't have much trade value right now. While Marshall isn't a prospect anymore, his value is really high...it's quite a bit to give up for an improvement at an already steady position (giving up two potential starters and our only hedge against a full year of Theriot at SS).

You don't think Beane might take the slightest of interest in Murton or Patterson (considering they might deal Ellis, and Beane isn't crazy about defense)?

 

Yeah, they've kept Mark Kotsay around for his awesome bat.

I'm sure teams were dying to add his 8 million salary to their payroll. I'm sure you've read the book, Beane will sacrifice defense for certain hitting characteristics.

 

Kotsay was acquired by Beane at one point, primarily for his defense. Jay Payton, Mark Ellis, Marco Scutaro, Milton Bradley, Chris Singleton. They've played quite a few guys primarily for their defense.

[Guest]

O's insider (BigBird):

 

 

It will most likely be a Cedeno, Gallagher, and Marshall with a good chance of it getting done in the next few days. We are trying to get them to take Payton in the deal and include Murton but that's probably not going to happen.

 

I know everyone will continue the skepticism of them, but don't act like you're not interested :wink:

 

Personally, people will probably complain about Marshall being included as well, but he's nothing more than a number 4 starter at best. We can find back of the rotation guys that will be similar, and let's face it, he's probably not in our rotation anyways next season. Even with his good year last season, his WHIP was still going to be in the 1.40 range and he was on pace for giving up a bunch of homers. I'd rather do this deal than the Murton/Patterson one.

 

What an awful trade that would be.

I tend to agree. It seems we'd be giving up our (current) best options for starting SS and #4/#5 starter so that we'd get a guy who would provide a moderate boost to 2B production. Then there's the unhappy possibility that the trade could bump Derosa into a super-sub role that could siphon PAs away from the likes of Lee, Ramirez, Fukudome, and Soriano. In my estimation the negatives outweigh the positives in this scenario.

[erik316wttn]

Cedeno, Gallagher, and Marshall would be crappy.

[David]

Whether the proposed deal for Roberts is crappy really depends on what we would do thereafter. Marshall and Gallagher only have that much value to us because we're rounding out the rotation with Marquis and Dempster if we get rid of them.

 

If we pick up another starter, i.e. Burnett (possibly using DeRosa, who would become expendable because of a Roberts trade), then that changes everything.

[Guest]

Yay, BK is around!

[RynoHawk23]

Long time reader, first time poster. Be gentle. :D

 

I think this is a move that has to be made. It vastly improves the top of the lineup and gives us more versatility in the field with DeRosa being the supersub with the ability to fill in/spell Aramis, DLee, Roberts, Theriot, or even Soriano if needed. Roberts is a quality defender and a threat on the basepaths. I don't see his downside, especially coming to the NL.

 

Just from reading, many of you value our prospects waaay to highly. Hendry would be dealing from a position of strength - and really organizational strength - we can usually grow pitching, we struggle with the positional players. I think Marshall has proven to be a 5th starter - and lets face it, not a guy Lou/Hendry trusts, right or wrong. Gallagher might be something, maybe not. But Angel Guzman was once an untouchable. Mark Prior absolutely could not be dealt for Miguel Tejada. Sometimes you have to pull the trigger, and screw what you gave up - worry about what you are getting to improve your team. The Orioles are buried in the AL East for the forseeable future. How are these guys going to haunt us? - at least in the next year or two? At worst Cedeno is the piece that I would regret giving up, just because I feel like he is the one that we haven't given a fair shot and is probably a more viable SS than Theriot - but let's face it, he's not a guy Lou/Hendry is going to trust. So reality is you have to give up value to get value.

 

We're taking a shot at a World Championship. We saw how far the team as constructed got us last year - not far enough. Fukudome was a nice addition, but it just replaces what Jones/Floyd produced. We haven't added much yet. And everyone seems to be assuming that Soto is reliable. Pie will be serviceable. I don't hold that opinion. Especially with no viable backup solutions. Keep adding Jim. And yes, I do think we need a realistic #2 starter. I don't know if we will start the season with that player, but may be a trade dead line addition. Keep adding Jim.

 

I am TIRED of falling short because of weak spots and just waiting for the next season, aren't you? I have no problem trading 3 pieces that are essentially not in our plans for one that is essential for a championship.

[Andy]

One possible positive side effect to this is having the ability to plug in a DeRosa when Aramis inevitably gets a gimpy knee and for other injuries to other people.

 

However, for the price, I don't think it's worth it. We'll see how it turns out though.

[Flames24Rulz]

I'd be pumped if Burnett and Roberts were the rest of our off season.

 

Ugh. Just say no to Burnett.

 

If we're going to get an arm, let's go after Blanton.

[Guest]

Whether the proposed deal for Roberts is crappy really depends on what we would do thereafter. Marshall and Gallagher only have that much value to us because we're rounding out the rotation with Marquis and Dempster if we get rid of them.

 

If we pick up another starter, i.e. Burnett (possibly using DeRosa, who would become expendable because of a Roberts trade), then that changes everything.

I'm not sure trading for a Burnett-type pitcher would be the wisest follow-up to the proposed Roberts trade. As you point out, Gallagher and Marshall are currently quite valuable to the Cubs as options/depth for the back end of the rotation. If those two leave we'll have few (if any) attractive options to fill in the rotation if/when one of our starters goes down, and in Burnett's case "when" is probably a better bet than "if." (Burnett has only exceeded 180 IP once in the past five years.)

 

As it stands, I just see Cedeno/Gallagher/Marshall having more combined value for the 2008 Cubs than Roberts does. If the Cubs can work out a couple deals beforehand that would push Marquis/Dempster out of the rotation or Theriot out of the lineup I'd be much more open to giving up the proposed package. Until that happens, however, I'm just not comfortable making the team's (arguably) biggest holes even bigger on the hope we can work out deals to fill them in after the fact.

 

EDIT: Howdy, Raisin. What's new with you?

Edited January 7, 2008 by Anonymous

[David]

I'm pretty sure I'd take Burnett over Blanton seven days a week, injury risks be damned.

[inari]

I'd be pumped if Burnett and Roberts were the rest of our off season.

 

Ugh. Just say no to Burnett.

 

If we're going to get an arm, let's go after Blanton.

 

Agreed 110%. Quite frankly, Burnett is as big of a guarantee to miss substantial time as there is. As good as he can be, I'd rather stay away.

[David]

Whether the proposed deal for Roberts is crappy really depends on what we would do thereafter. Marshall and Gallagher only have that much value to us because we're rounding out the rotation with Marquis and Dempster if we get rid of them.

 

If we pick up another starter, i.e. Burnett (possibly using DeRosa, who would become expendable because of a Roberts trade), then that changes everything.

I'm not sure trading for a Burnett-type pitcher would be the wisest follow-up to the proposed Roberts trade. As you point out, Gallagher and Marshall are currently quite valuable to the Cubs as options/depth for the back end of the rotation. If those two leave we'll have few (if any) attractive options to fill in the rotation if/when one of our starters goes down, and in Burnett's case "when" is probably a better bet than "if." (Burnett has only exceeded 180 IP once in the past five years.)

 

As it stands, I just see Cedeno/Gallagher/Marshall having more combined value for the 2008 Cubs than Roberts does. If the Cubs can work out a couple deals beforehand that would push Marquis/Dempster out of the rotation or Theriot out of the lineup I'd be much more open to giving up the proposed package. Until that happens, however, I'm just not comfortable making the team's (arguably) biggest holes even bigger on the hope we can work out deals to fill them in after the fact

 

Burnett & Marquis/Dempster > Marquis, Dempster, Gallagher, Marshall

 

No?

 

In other words, if dealing Marshall and Gallagher for Roberts allows us to deal DeRo in a trade for Burnett, we're left with Burnett in the 4 spot, and then either Marquis (most likely) or Dempster for the 5th spot. If, and only if, (and I suppose when) Burnett gets hurt, you'll see the other of the two (most likely Dempster) in the rotation. I'd rather have Burnett and Marquis with Dempster backing them up than what would inevitably turn out to be Marquis and Dempster with Marshall and Gallagher in the wings (the slightly more than marginal upgrade at 2B that this series of deals brings doesn't hurt, either).

 

I think it's doubtful that if the roster were to stay as it is, Marshall or Gallagher would have much of a shot to take Dempster's rotation spot, and there's no way they'd take Marquis's. As much as Lou isn't in love with the idea of Demp as a starter, I don't think he's too high on Marshall either. I'm really not sure where they stand with Gallagher.

[Mephistopheles]

Long time reader, first time poster. Be gentle. :D

 

I think this is a move that has to be made. It vastly improves the top of the lineup and gives us more versatility in the field with DeRosa being the supersub with the ability to fill in/spell Aramis, DLee, Roberts, Theriot, or even Soriano if needed. Roberts is a quality defender and a threat on the basepaths. I don't see his downside, especially coming to the NL.

 

Just from reading, many of you value our prospects waaay to highly. Hendry would be dealing from a position of strength - and really organizational strength - we can usually grow pitching, we struggle with the positional players. I think Marshall has proven to be a 5th starter - and lets face it, not a guy Lou/Hendry trusts, right or wrong. Gallagher might be something, maybe not. But Angel Guzman was once an untouchable. Mark Prior absolutely could not be dealt for Miguel Tejada. Sometimes you have to pull the trigger, and screw what you gave up - worry about what you are getting to improve your team. The Orioles are buried in the AL East for the forseeable future. How are these guys going to haunt us? - at least in the next year or two? At worst Cedeno is the piece that I would regret giving up, just because I feel like he is the one that we haven't given a fair shot and is probably a more viable SS than Theriot - but let's face it, he's not a guy Lou/Hendry is going to trust. So reality is you have to give up value to get value.

 

We're taking a shot at a World Championship. We saw how far the team as constructed got us last year - not far enough. Fukudome was a nice addition, but it just replaces what Jones/Floyd produced. We haven't added much yet. And everyone seems to be assuming that Soto is reliable. Pie will be serviceable. I don't hold that opinion. Especially with no viable backup solutions. Keep adding Jim. And yes, I do think we need a realistic #2 starter. I don't know if we will start the season with that player, but may be a trade dead line addition. Keep adding Jim.

 

I am TIRED of falling short because of weak spots and just waiting for the next season, aren't you? I have no problem trading 3 pieces that are essentially not in our plans for one that is essential for a championship.

 

 

roberts is not essential for a championship, duh. i am the resident ass know-it-all and you should take my opinions as facts.

[Bote McBoteface]

Long time reader, first time poster. Be gentle. :D

 

I think this is a move that has to be made. It vastly improves the top of the lineup and gives us more versatility in the field with DeRosa being the supersub with the ability to fill in/spell Aramis, DLee, Roberts, Theriot, or even Soriano if needed. Roberts is a quality defender and a threat on the basepaths. I don't see his downside, especially coming to the NL.

 

Just from reading, many of you value our prospects waaay to highly. Hendry would be dealing from a position of strength - and really organizational strength - we can usually grow pitching, we struggle with the positional players. I think Marshall has proven to be a 5th starter - and lets face it, not a guy Lou/Hendry trusts, right or wrong. Gallagher might be something, maybe not. But Angel Guzman was once an untouchable. Mark Prior absolutely could not be dealt for Miguel Tejada. Sometimes you have to pull the trigger, and screw what you gave up - worry about what you are getting to improve your team. The Orioles are buried in the AL East for the forseeable future. How are these guys going to haunt us? - at least in the next year or two? At worst Cedeno is the piece that I would regret giving up, just because I feel like he is the one that we haven't given a fair shot and is probably a more viable SS than Theriot - but let's face it, he's not a guy Lou/Hendry is going to trust. So reality is you have to give up value to get value.

 

We're taking a shot at a World Championship. We saw how far the team as constructed got us last year - not far enough. Fukudome was a nice addition, but it just replaces what Jones/Floyd produced. We haven't added much yet. And everyone seems to be assuming that Soto is reliable. Pie will be serviceable. I don't hold that opinion. Especially with no viable backup solutions. Keep adding Jim. And yes, I do think we need a realistic #2 starter. I don't know if we will start the season with that player, but may be a trade dead line addition. Keep adding Jim.

 

I am TIRED of falling short because of weak spots and just waiting for the next season, aren't you? I have no problem trading 3 pieces that are essentially not in our plans for one that is essential for a championship.

 

 

I would not say that Brian Roberts is essential, but aside from that, nice first post. Welcome to the board.

[Butterscup1679666578]

Long time reader, first time poster. Be gentle. :D

 

I think this is a move that has to be made. It vastly improves the top of the lineup and gives us more versatility in the field with DeRosa being the supersub with the ability to fill in/spell Aramis, DLee, Roberts, Theriot, or even Soriano if needed. Roberts is a quality defender and a threat on the basepaths. I don't see his downside, especially coming to the NL.

 

Just from reading, many of you value our prospects waaay to highly. Hendry would be dealing from a position of strength - and really organizational strength - we can usually grow pitching, we struggle with the positional players. I think Marshall has proven to be a 5th starter - and lets face it, not a guy Lou/Hendry trusts, right or wrong. Gallagher might be something, maybe not. But Angel Guzman was once an untouchable. Mark Prior absolutely could not be dealt for Miguel Tejada. Sometimes you have to pull the trigger, and screw what you gave up - worry about what you are getting to improve your team. The Orioles are buried in the AL East for the forseeable future. How are these guys going to haunt us? - at least in the next year or two? At worst Cedeno is the piece that I would regret giving up, just because I feel like he is the one that we haven't given a fair shot and is probably a more viable SS than Theriot - but let's face it, he's not a guy Lou/Hendry is going to trust. So reality is you have to give up value to get value.

 

We're taking a shot at a World Championship. We saw how far the team as constructed got us last year - not far enough. Fukudome was a nice addition, but it just replaces what Jones/Floyd produced. We haven't added much yet. And everyone seems to be assuming that Soto is reliable. Pie will be serviceable. I don't hold that opinion. Especially with no viable backup solutions. Keep adding Jim. And yes, I do think we need a realistic #2 starter. I don't know if we will start the season with that player, but may be a trade dead line addition. Keep adding Jim.

 

I am TIRED of falling short because of weak spots and just waiting for the next season, aren't you? I have no problem trading 3 pieces that are essentially not in our plans for one that is essential for a championship.

 

 

roberts is not essential for a championship, duh. i am the resident ass know-it-all and you should take my opinions as facts.

 

perfect response :lol:

[badnews]

100% of the time when people say "This is a trade that has to get done" it is NOT a trade that has to get done.

 

I'm still waiting for a logical, reasonable explanation as to why Brian Roberts should be worth more in trade than Renteria. Price was mentioned - Renteria's price for a shortstop is more reasonable than Roberts' price for a 2b.

[inari]

100% of the time when people say "This is a trade that has to get done" it is NOT a trade that has to get done.

 

I'm still waiting for a logical, reasonable explanation as to why Brian Roberts should be worth more in trade than Renteria. Price was mentioned - Renteria's price for a shortstop is more reasonable than Roberts' price for a 2b.

 

We have The Riot, dude.

[Mephistopheles]

100% of the time when people say "This is a trade that has to get done" it is NOT a trade that has to get done.

 

I'm still waiting for a logical, reasonable explanation as to why Brian Roberts should be worth more in trade than Renteria. Price was mentioned - Renteria's price for a shortstop is more reasonable than Roberts' price for a 2b.

 

We have The Riot, dude.

 

 

riot - n, 6. Slang. An irresistibly funny person or thing

 

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/32/328441m.jpg

[RynoHawk23]

Thanks guys for welcoming me.

 

I would argue that Roberts is an essential piece of the championship puzzle. I would say that if we acquire Roberts, we are at 2004 level of expectations as the National League favorite. We would have the best balance of pitching and hitting in the NL - disagree? With the Mets, Phillies, Rockies and Dbacks right behind us with obvious deficiencies.

 

I don't think we have too many left handed hitting table setters that could deliver 50 steals and play good defense. That is our need. I don't really care what Renteria pulled in as trade. We are not the Braves nor the Detroit Tigers. The Chicago Cubs need more versatility in their lineup and Brian Roberts is a very solid solution. And trading 3 non-essential pieces for 2008 to try to win it all in 2008 is worth the price.

[Mephistopheles]

steals are pointless. we need a shortstop, not another s2b. batting left or right does not matter. brian roberts would be a minimal upgrade. it's not essential.