MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[OleMissCub]

Nothing's been out of line yet, but let's keep it civil...

 

yet another case of "let's pile on the newbie". you'd think it would get old (but some people just can't help it)

 

alot of that going around lately...

[rchap24]

Nothing's been out of line yet, but let's keep it civil...

He is clearly trying to outdue or whatever he think hes doing and make me feel dumb so im sorry if im out of line, but hes really offended

[Geech]

i realize that, but people put too much into post count as far as whose opinions they do/don't respect

 

I'm pretty sure that's not what's going on here.

[ThePenguin11]

I think it could get done for marshall, murton, epatt and veal. At least that seems fair to me.

Am I thinking of a different Brian Roberts? That's awfully steep.

 

Done without a second thought.

I must be thinking of a different Brian Roberts too, because that is one lopsided trade. He's basically Matt Murton playing 2nd.

 

That is basically a ridiculous statement.

.281 .351 .409 Roberts

.296 .365 .455 Murton

 

Sorry, a tad bit worse than Murton.

 

I disagree. Those three statistics aren't the only three you can use to make blanket judgements with. Murton is also a butcher defensively in my opinion. Plus you are comparing statistics of players who play positions with drastically different offensive positions. I don't see Murton as ever being an above average everyday outfielder. He's a nice 4th outfielder type. He doesn't project for power and I don't think he's got enough speed in the field or on the paths to make up for his warning track power.

Your opinion means a lot more than the numbers.

 

Here's the deal for me, it doesn't matter where you get the offense it matters how much offense you get. I'd love to see the Cubs upgrade in RF. Hopefully they get Fukudome. However, nothing happens in a vacuum. Currently, the Cubs have a hole in RF, SS, and CF. Brian Roberts plays none of those positions and, if the rumors are true will take three tradable players to get. So, if they don't get Fukudome and Roberts moves DeRosa all over the diamond and they lose Cedeno, Murton, and another players. They've upgraded slightly at 2nd and have "shot their wad" so to speak.

 

I see your point. I don't totally agree with it, but you are also entitled to your opinion. I just think that Roberts overall game is being undervalued here. I saw much of the same dissecting of Alfonso Soriano in a thread the '05 trade deadline I was looking at earlier today. Everybody was talking about how he was barely any better than what we had on the roster and that he wouldn't make the team any better. A year later he was on the team and we were considerably better. Even with him batting out of order in the lineup. I'm glad I saved the old thread, it's hilarious to look at what we were all saying about scenarios back then and how ridiculously off they could be. And the best part is how much coveting of 'prize prospects' goes on. Most of the guys people didn't want to trade flamed out somewhere else or are stinking it up in our system. Interesting reading material.

[Burtonbell]

Nothing's been out of line yet, but let's keep it civil...

 

yet another case of "let's pile on the newbie". you'd think it would get old (but some people just can't help it)

rchap's not a newbie. He/she just doesn't post much.

 

i realize that, but people put too much into post count as far as whose opinions they do/don't respect

 

So wait, that raisin guy isn't all he's cracked out to be???? :P

 

I'm so lost right now!

[Derwood]

either way, it's unnecessary

[Guest]

 

"leadoff" isn't much of a designation no matter how you slice it, that was the point. You need eight hitters, and batting order has been proven to be fairly inconsequential.

 

Respectfully, that really is only an opinion.

 

I guess, though I've never understood the dissenting view.

 

I understand. I just appreciate the art that made Rickey Henderson so great. I just haven't really studied all of the "mathmatical" analysis of the game - just what I learned on the field. I like to think the "leadoff hitter" has a pretty defined role - and I mean the first batter of the game, as each inning literally has a different "leadoff hitter" if one wants to be technical.

And that's part of what people denigrate about making such a big deal about leadoff hitter. He's typically only the leadoff hitter for the first inning. Chances are he comes up in other situations during the game. So why go out of your way to find someone who fits that stereotype instead of just worrying about finding the best eight hitters you can?

[Outshined_One]

For my 16,000th post, I have decided to post something that is thought-provoking and deep compared to the current discussions going on. You will find it is quite relevant to this thread.

 

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2964/walrusbucketum7.jpg

[Electron Blue]

 

"leadoff" isn't much of a designation no matter how you slice it, that was the point. You need eight hitters, and batting order has been proven to be fairly inconsequential.

 

Respectfully, that really is only an opinion.

 

I guess, though I've never understood the dissenting view.

 

I understand. I just appreciate the art that made Rickey Henderson so great. I just haven't really studied all of the "mathmatical" analysis of the game - just what I learned on the field. I like to think the "leadoff hitter" has a pretty defined role - and I mean the first batter of the game, as each inning literally has a different "leadoff hitter" if one wants to be technical.

 

Fair enough - we're hardly disagreeing, if at all, I think. Henderson probably would have been just as good hitting 2-8, though, I guess is the mathematical point. He got on base very well and stole a ton of bases efficiently. That's good whenever/wherever you get it.

 

The idea of a leadoff hitter having a certain role... i was gonna jump on you there, until saying that each inning had a leadoff hitter. That's a good point, though it's an aside to most "leadoff hitter" debates.

[BigbadB]

what is up with Ussoccer giving me so much trouble for saying lead off position?

 

You'll get that from most of us here. There aren't many NSBBers that believe in the "prototypical lead off hitter" theory.

 

I just had this discussion in another thread earlier today. The best lead off hitter the Cubs have had in the last few generations is Mark Bellhorn. He isn't speedy and he didn't make good contact on every swing, but he scored runs like they were going out of style. How? He got on base.

 

It's nice if you can get a speedy guy who makes good contact on every pitch and gets on base 40% of the time, but they have yet to clone Rickey Henderson.

 

The Red Sox did just fine with fatty Kevin Youkilis leading off for them for a short spell that first time they won the World Series in the 2000's.

 

Theriot should be batting 8th on the Cubs team. He doesn't provide a good enough OBP to bat at the top of the order. His speed is worthless when he's walking back to the bench after making an out.

 

If Soriano and Theriot are the options to lead off, I'll take Soriano everytime. Why? Because Soriano should come to the plate more often than Theriot. They have approximately the same OBP, but Soriano brings a nifty SLG along with it.

 

Brian Roberts? Yeah, I'd bat him lead off. But only because his OBP meets my approval to bat lead off, not how many bases he stole last year.

 

One of the worst lead off hitters the Cubs have had (excluding Corey Patterson) in the 2000's is Juan Pierre. He's the very definition of the "prototypical lead off guy". And he sucks.

 

That's why USSoccer gave you a hard time. There really isn't such a thing as a "lead off hitter". There is such a thing as putting a good player in the lead off spot, however. Murton would have been a more capable lead off guy than Theriot or Pierre. He would have scored more runs than either of them, also.

[Wrigley Rat]

For my 16,000th post, I have decided to post something that is thought-provoking and deep compared to the current discussions going on. You will find it is quite relevant to this thread.

 

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2964/walrusbucketum7.jpg

Nicely played.

[Guest]

Nothing's been out of line yet, but let's keep it civil...

He is clearly trying to outdue or whatever he think hes doing and make me feel dumb so im sorry if im out of line, but hes really offended

Well, technically it wasn't against the rules of the forum. But I did see what was going on and asked everyone to keep it civil.

[Post Count Padder]

For my 16,000th post, I have decided to post something that is thought-provoking and deep compared to the current discussions going on. You will find it is quite relevant to this thread.

 

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2964/walrusbucketum7.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I'm still laughing at this.

[justlikethecubs]

For my 16,000th post, I have decided to post something that is thought-provoking and deep compared to the current discussions going on. You will find it is quite relevant to this thread.

 

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2964/walrusbucketum7.jpg

 

You found a picture of hendry and MacPhail at lunch? That's nice.

[weis21]

For my 16,000th post, I have decided to post something that is thought-provoking and deep compared to the current discussions going on. You will find it is quite relevant to this thread.

 

 

I wish everyone could have heard seal's voice as I heard it in my head. Hilarious.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

For my 16,000th post, I have decided to post something that is thought-provoking and deep compared to the current discussions going on. You will find it is quite relevant to this thread.

 

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2964/walrusbucketum7.jpg

 

Excellent work, I must say!

[Post Count Padder]

The Baltimore Sun believes the Cubs could be offering Sean Gallagher and Matt Murton in return for Brian Roberts.

 

That's not nearly as attractive as the packages ESPN was kicking around. We like Murton, but he's not a difference maker, and Gallagher lacks top-of-the-rotation upside. The Orioles have no reason to move Roberts unless it gets them a top talent, and neither Gallagher nor Murton qualifies. Felix Pie does, but he's not on the table right now, says the Sun.

Source: Baltimore Sun

[OleMissCub]

Tim, please check your PM's.

[UK1679666180]

And that's part of what people denigrate about making such a big deal about leadoff hitter. He's typically only the leadoff hitter for the first inning. Chances are he comes up in other situations during the game. So why go out of your way to find someone who fits that stereotype instead of just worrying about finding the best eight hitters you can?

 

But apply it to the Cubs, they had Soriano at the top, in front of Theriot for much of the season.

 

If they don't get someone like Roberts, it'll be costing them runs as Soriano isn't their best overall hitter so it doesn't utilize the lineup theory of giving your best hitter the most PAs and it puts a lower OBP guy in front of your best hitters.

 

The Cubs need hitter(s) to get on base and another middle of the order hitter, hopefully Roberts and Fukudome answer the need of OBP and shifting Soriano down to the 5th spot (hopefully) solves the bat in the middle.

Edited December 6, 2007 by UK

[CUBZ99]

K well this is for multiple discussions.

First off: The Murton thing don't be a jerk and be a smart alec because I said lead off position. he is a lead off hitter which would be nice to have. You cant factor in throwing arm to compare Brian Roberts and Matt Murton they play infield and outfield. Murton is a horrible fielder so don't try to tell me which I don't know how good he is that Roberts can be equal or worse than him.

 

secondly: Sorry for saying you guys just know that a few of you use that with Murton every time there is a post about him

 

thirdly: Pie he might be great in the minors, but you are making an assumption that he is better than 31 other CF's in baseball outside of Taveras that can not possibly be made right now in his career.

 

Leadoff hitter is not a position in the game of baseball.

what is your problem, I made a mistake on saying that if thats your best comeback on trying to make me look bad then u obviously have no case in that argument

 

Ok, now it's on.

 

Matt Murton is a pre-prime, cheap OF who's proven he can be a decent, cheap OF. We currently have no RF. Brian Roberts is a 30 year old 2B who's marginally better than our current 2B and makes $4.2m. He would cost the Cubs 2 or 3 good trading chips. Thus, Matt Murton has more value to the Cubs than this trade for Brian Roberts.

 

Second, leadoff hitter isn't a position. It's an old timey way of looking at a lineup's composition (which really doesn't matter much when you look at it). Offense is offense, regardless if it is hitting 1st, 6th or 8th.

 

Finally, baseballs don't travel differently in the minors as opposed to the majors. Pie's minor league career is a perfectly justified method of evaluating his defensive ability. And for what it's worth, 40 ML games isn't that small of a sample size.

 

First, if Matt Murton played 2B his production would be above average and the Cubs likely wouldn't be looking for a replacement in the first place. He doesn't he plays LF, and the Cubs already have a LF that put up an OPS of approx. .100 pts higher than he did.

 

Second, you can label it is "old timey" or whatever other snide putdown you can come up with, but the idea of putting a guy with a good OBP and speed at the top of the lineup to be a "leadoff hitter" is in fact a position and fills a role on the team. With a guy that steals 50 bases a year, that is the equivalent of taking 50 singles and making them doubles. Unfortunately that doesn't factor into his OPS so that you can compare OPS cleanly. Murton provides very little stolen bases. Further, a leadoff hitter is the guy on your team who is going to get the most at bats during a game. What a concept to have a guy that can actually get on base and make things happen.

 

Finally, I agree with you on Pie.

[Burtonbell]

The Baltimore Sun believes the Cubs could be offering Sean Gallagher and Matt Murton in return for Brian Roberts.

 

That's not nearly as attractive as the packages ESPN was kicking around. We like Murton, but he's not a difference maker, and Gallagher lacks top-of-the-rotation upside. The Orioles have no reason to move Roberts unless it gets them a top talent, and neither Gallagher nor Murton qualifies. Felix Pie does, but he's not on the table right now, says the Sun.

Source: Baltimore Sun

 

Quit the whinning, make up for the debacle that was the Sammy trade.

[weis21]

And that's part of what people denigrate about making such a big deal about leadoff hitter. He's typically only the leadoff hitter for the first inning. Chances are he comes up in other situations during the game. So why go out of your way to find someone who fits that stereotype instead of just worrying about finding the best eight hitters you can?

 

But apply it to the Cubs, they had Soriano at the top, in front of Theriot for much of the season.

 

If they don't get someone like Roberts, it'll be costing them runs as Soriano isn't their best overall hitter so it doesn't utilize the lineup theory of giving your best hitter the most PAs and it puts a lower OBP guy in front of your best hitters.

 

The Cubs need hitter to get on base and another middle of the order hitter, hopefully Roberts and Fukudome answer the need of OBP and shifting Soriano down to the 5th spot (hopefully) sloves the bat in the middle.

 

I understand both sides, but this is the angle I see it as well.

[Guest]

And that's part of what people denigrate about making such a big deal about leadoff hitter. He's typically only the leadoff hitter for the first inning. Chances are he comes up in other situations during the game. So why go out of your way to find someone who fits that stereotype instead of just worrying about finding the best eight hitters you can?

 

But apply it to the Cubs, they had Soriano at the top, in front of Theriot for much of the season.

 

If they don't get someone like Roberts, it'll be costing them runs as Soriano isn't their best overall hitter so it doesn't utilize the lineup theory of giving your best hitter the most PAs and it puts a lower OBP guy in front of your best hitters.

 

The Cubs need hitter to get on base and another middle of the order hitter, hopefully Roberts and Fukudome answer the need of OBP and shifting Soriano down to the 5th spot (hopefully) sloves the bat in the middle.

I consider that more of a management issue than talent issue.

 

I realize that management isn't going to change their stereotypes anytime soon, but I hate using resources in a non-optimal fashion because of thick-headedness.

[VanceJergins]

The Baltimore Sun believes the Cubs could be offering Sean Gallagher and Matt Murton in return for Brian Roberts.

 

That's not nearly as attractive as the packages ESPN was kicking around. We like Murton, but he's not a difference maker, and Gallagher lacks top-of-the-rotation upside. The Orioles have no reason to move Roberts unless it gets them a top talent, and neither Gallagher nor Murton qualifies. Felix Pie does, but he's not on the table right now, says the Sun.

Source: Baltimore Sun

 

I like Gallagher's chances of being a good major leaguer better than Pie's....but Pie has more perceived value...So I'd want more if Pie was involved.

[Guest]

Tim, please check your PM's.

It's being discussed in the mod forum.