Moreno on Mitchell Report: "There's going to be names"

[imb]

The only thing I would care about is if one of our guys were suspended. Other than that, I really don't care who was/wasn't using steroids, other than out of just random curiosity.

[Abe Frohman]

That's why some of us love baseball. It's Americana.

[jersey cubs fan]

Don't any of you realize that the "Old-Timeyness" is what separates the game from other sports and makes it special?

 

No. The old timeyness is the worst part. Every Bob Costas and Billy Crystal who can't get out of the 50's is what makes this game so boring to so many people. I don't care about the "hallowed numbers" or the old time greats. They are meaningless. The game itself is great. If people could stop living in, and romanticizing the past, many more people would realize how great it is, right now.

 

But steroids are still bad.

[Outshined_One]

Don't any of you realize that the "Old-Timeyness" is what separates the game from other sports and makes it special?

 

It's one thing to have a rich history adding to the game in a variety of ways.

 

It's another thing when people get shrill because they think someone has dared violate their delusional dream about what the game once was and supposedly still is. It cuts both ways.

[USSoccer]

Oh, they'll do their best to beat the "sanctity of the game" drum and plenty of people will buy it.

 

They'll all be stupid people, but still.

 

So baseball fans who care if players use/used steroids and other PED's are "stupid" because they care about the history of the game?

 

They're stupid if they think it should make a difference in how they view their sport, especially if they don't apply the same standard to other sports, especially considering that many of the substances abused either weren't against the rules in baseball, or weren't being tested for.

 

Don't any of you realize that the "Old-Timeyness" is what separates the game from other sports and makes it special?

 

Baseball's special-ness has nothing to do with it's age. I don't care who did what decades ago, and no one else really should. It's not as if rules haven't evolved over the decades in baseball, but no one points out the higher mound that existed as a reason to devalue the dominant pitchers of yesteryear.

[jersey cubs fan]

Do San Diego fans burn Luis Castillo and Shawne Merriman in effigy?

 

Quite the contrary; Castillo is one of the NFL's biggest spokesman to the Latino community.

 

The double standard for PED use in baseball and football is laughable and arbitrary. I'll never be able to understand why it's a career-staining and career-ending thing in baseball, but in football, people simply don't give a crap.

 

How in the world is it career ending? People give a crap in football. I'll grant you, ESPN still goes along pimping the guys it chooses. But the fact is that steroids and Merriman will forever be linked. There are baseball players playing right now who have come off steroid suspension and are still playing. The only way it's career ending is if your career was over anyway, Palmeiro, or you sucked enough with the steroids that nobody had any interest in taking you after the steroids.

 

I guarantee that the next time some quality 28 year old player goes under suspension, he'll come right back and be worshipped by his fans, if he produces. Baseball will get to the point that the NFL is now, where there is forgiveness, once they actually start acting like the NFL. Everybody knows Giambi did it. When he came back and stunk, he was villified. But he apologized, got good again, and was worshipped. If Peyton Manning signed as a free agent with another team, played well, then got suspended, the reaction would be about how he came back.

[Jon]

 

Exactly. And this isn't the only place that Old-Timeyness gets in the way of baseball becoming what it's capable of.

 

What it's capable of?? Like what? I suppose getting in the way of even MORE rampant abuse of illegal substances....which aren't just illegal in baseball, but illegal in the "real world" as well.

 

Don't any of you realize that the "Old-Timeyness" is what separates the game from other sports and makes it special?

The old-timeyness also keeps us horribly depressed that our general manager can't utilize new thinking and put together a decent team despite a large payroll. And it also drives a lot of people crazy because of how the mainstream media and most baseball fans think about the game. The worst, perhaps, is the paradox of promoting individual sacrifices for the team despite it being a largely individual sport and the occasionally disturbing obsession baseball has with individual records. We're so far away from having any sort of intelligent discussion about baseball on a national level that it's just sad.

 

There's a lot about baseball's past that is important to our culture, but that doesn't we have to obsess about it. When sports fans and the media care about steroid abuse in baseball only because of "sacred" individual records, yet don't care about it other sports, there's something wrong. And besides, the baseball obsession over steroids mostly just clouds what PEDs actually do and who they're mostly used by.

[Abe Frohman]

Oh, they'll do their best to beat the "sanctity of the game" drum and plenty of people will buy it.

 

They'll all be stupid people, but still.

 

So baseball fans who care if players use/used steroids and other PED's are "stupid" because they care about the history of the game?

 

They're stupid if they think it should make a difference in how they view their sport, especially if they don't apply the same standard to other sports, especially considering that many of the substances abused either weren't against the rules in baseball, or weren't being tested for.

 

It makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in how I view MLB, not the sport of baseball. Unfortunately, the way MLB and the owners (who did nothing to put restrictions on PED's because the "benefits" put meat in the seats) handled rampant drug abuse indirectly has an affect on the sport of baseball, as Professional baseball players all the way down to High School baseball players are tempted by using drugs so that they can keep up with the standouts who also use.

 

I love the game of baseball. I love the Cubs. I also believe that MLB is corrupt and takes advantage of those who love the game enough to pay the ridiculous prices to watch it professionally. Steriods/PED's are not the only problem with MLB, and I seperate MLB from the game of baseball. The History is affected as the playing field is not level (nor has it ever really been level), and the records are not comparable between eras. It's like apples/oranges if you think about it. One time it was the exclusion of minorities, now it is drugs.

 

We should all care.

[Dirt Dog Sparly]

Oh, they'll do their best to beat the "sanctity of the game" drum and plenty of people will buy it.

 

They'll all be stupid people, but still.

 

So baseball fans who care if players use/used steroids and other PED's are "stupid" because they care about the history of the game?

 

They're stupid if they think it should make a difference in how they view their sport, especially if they don't apply the same standard to other sports, especially considering that many of the substances abused either weren't against the rules in baseball, or weren't being tested for.

 

It makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in how I view MLB, not the sport of baseball. Unfortunately, the way MLB and the owners (who did nothing to put restrictions on PED's because the "benefits" put meat in the seats) handled rampant drug abuse indirectly has an affect on the sport of baseball, as Professional baseball players all the way down to High School baseball players are tempted by using drugs so that they can keep up with the standouts who also use.

 

I love the game of baseball. I love the Cubs. I also believe that MLB is corrupt and takes advantage of those who love the game enough to pay the ridiculous prices to watch it professionally. Steriods/PED's are not the only problem with MLB, and I seperate MLB from the game of baseball. The History is affected as the playing field is not level (nor has it ever really been level), and the records are not comparable between eras. It's like apples/oranges if you think about it. One time it was the exclusion of minorities, now it is drugs.

 

We should all care.

 

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

[OleMissCub]

Baseball's special-ness has nothing to do with it's age.

 

That's completely wrong. The era in which it was created and the fact that the most fundamental aspects of the game haven't changed in 160 years has everything to do with it. The most important example of this is the lack of a game clock. This "old timey" aspect of the game is what creates the most drama, perhaps more than any other sport.

 

In baseball there is no way to run out the clock against an opponent, so to speak; the other team will always get their chance to make a comeback, no matter what. In football and basketball, there is also a play clock, so we essentially know when some dramatic action is about to occur. The beauty of baseball, to me, is in its untimed inaction i.e. the pitcher standing on the mound with the ball, etc. The drama that exists during those suspenseful moments is perhaps greater than in any other sport.

[Jon]

Do San Diego fans burn Luis Castillo and Shawne Merriman in effigy?

 

Quite the contrary; Castillo is one of the NFL's biggest spokesman to the Latino community.

 

The double standard for PED use in baseball and football is laughable and arbitrary. I'll never be able to understand why it's a career-staining and career-ending thing in baseball, but in football, people simply don't give a crap.

But that's the problem with steroid discussion. There's no context. Castillo never used steroids while playing. He used them after his college career was over to recover from nagging injuries that weren't healing on their own and stopped well before the draft. But we still don't know what effect such drugs have on pitchers, the primary culprits in baseball Along with minor leaguers, use that 99% of people won't blink an eye at. Sure the media largely ignores it, perhaps implicitly acknowledging the context (or, more likely, ignoring it because it doesn't effect HR records), but there's no dialogue at all. If steroids don't make pitches throw harder, but rather really just help in their recovery time/longevity, just how bad is such use?

 

If not for home run records, an artibrary and useless context for discussing steroid use, baseball steroid use would be seen just like in any other sport.

[Outshined_One]

Do San Diego fans burn Luis Castillo and Shawne Merriman in effigy?

 

Quite the contrary; Castillo is one of the NFL's biggest spokesman to the Latino community.

 

The double standard for PED use in baseball and football is laughable and arbitrary. I'll never be able to understand why it's a career-staining and career-ending thing in baseball, but in football, people simply don't give a crap.

 

How in the world is it career ending? People give a crap in football. I'll grant you, ESPN still goes along pimping the guys it chooses. But the fact is that steroids and Merriman will forever be linked. There are baseball players playing right now who have come off steroid suspension and are still playing. The only way it's career ending is if your career was over anyway, Palmeiro, or you sucked enough with the steroids that nobody had any interest in taking you after the steroids.

 

I guarantee that the next time some quality 28 year old player goes under suspension, he'll come right back and be worshipped by his fans, if he produces. Baseball will get to the point that the NFL is now, where there is forgiveness, once they actually start acting like the NFL. Everybody knows Giambi did it. When he came back and stunk, he was villified. But he apologized, got good again, and was worshipped. If Peyton Manning signed as a free agent with another team, played well, then got suspended, the reaction would be about how he came back.

 

I think I used a poor choice of words when I went with "career-ending" since I was trying to encompass something a bit bigger than just getting smacked with a suspension.

 

In baseball, the moment this shadow has been cast over baseball's biggest stars, it becomes a giant black spot on their careers. We've seen the effects of this. Guys like Mark McGwire, Raffy Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds might never make the Hall of Fame. Guys lose the good faith of the public. They lose endorsement contracts. Opposing fans crucify them whenever their team comes to visit their fields. In extreme cases, they've faced threats of federal prosecution. I'm not totally sure how GMs feel about signing these guys. Baseball players stand to lose millions of dollars. In plenty of cases, they've been disgraced.

 

But, with football, it's nothing. Shawne Merriman still has lucrative endorsements. Luis Castillo is a freaking spokesman! If these guys get busted for steroid use, it's like no one cares; not even the NFL itself. People are happy to sit around and tear baseball to shreds on the speculation that steroids is a rampant problem staining baseball. But, with football? Nobody says a word. If a guy gets busted for steroid use, it's forgotten within weeks. It doesn't hurt their careers at all.

 

Numerous former athletes have come out and said that PEDs are a problem in the sport. If you don't think PEDs are just as big of a problem in football as it is in baseball, then I have a bridge to sell you.

[USSoccer]

Baseball's special-ness has nothing to do with it's age.

 

That's completely wrong. The era in which it was created and the fact that the most fundamental aspects of the game haven't changed in 160 years has everything to do with it. The most important example of this is the lack of a game clock. This "old timey" aspect of the game is what creates the most drama, perhaps more than any other sport.

 

In baseball there is no way to run out the clock against an opponent, so to speak; the other team will always get their chance to make a comeback, no matter what. In football and basketball, there is also a play clock, so we essentially know when some dramatic action is about to occur. The beauty of baseball, to me, is in its untimed inaction i.e. the pitcher standing on the mound with the ball, etc. The drama that exists during those suspenseful moments is perhaps greater than in any other sport.

 

You're describing the way the game is played, ie, the basic structure, which has nothing to do with how old it is or how much history is in it.

 

Jon is right. This has everything to do with sportswriters agahst at how their cherished records from when they were a kid are being broken by people (or person) that they don't like. Without the context of records being broken, no one cares, but because baseball records hold a totemlike voodoo power over people, we now have wasted the time of the US Government so people can feel better about what they loved when they were kids.

[USSoccer]

Oh, they'll do their best to beat the "sanctity of the game" drum and plenty of people will buy it.

 

They'll all be stupid people, but still.

 

So baseball fans who care if players use/used steroids and other PED's are "stupid" because they care about the history of the game?

 

They're stupid if they think it should make a difference in how they view their sport, especially if they don't apply the same standard to other sports, especially considering that many of the substances abused either weren't against the rules in baseball, or weren't being tested for.

 

It makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in how I view MLB, not the sport of baseball. Unfortunately, the way MLB and the owners (who did nothing to put restrictions on PED's because the "benefits" put meat in the seats) handled rampant drug abuse indirectly has an affect on the sport of baseball, as Professional baseball players all the way down to High School baseball players are tempted by using drugs so that they can keep up with the standouts who also use.

 

I love the game of baseball. I love the Cubs. I also believe that MLB is corrupt and takes advantage of those who love the game enough to pay the ridiculous prices to watch it professionally. Steriods/PED's are not the only problem with MLB, and I seperate MLB from the game of baseball. The History is affected as the playing field is not level (nor has it ever really been level), and the records are not comparable between eras. It's like apples/oranges if you think about it. One time it was the exclusion of minorities, now it is drugs.

 

We should all care.

 

So...basically you agree with me.

[Guest]

Baseball's special-ness has nothing to do with it's age.

 

That's completely wrong. The era in which it was created and the fact that the most fundamental aspects of the game haven't changed in 160 years has everything to do with it. The most important example of this is the lack of a game clock. This "old timey" aspect of the game is what creates the most drama, perhaps more than any other sport.

 

In baseball there is no way to run out the clock against an opponent, so to speak; the other team will always get their chance to make a comeback, no matter what. In football and basketball, there is also a play clock, so we essentially know when some dramatic action is about to occur. The beauty of baseball, to me, is in its untimed inaction i.e. the pitcher standing on the mound with the ball, etc. The drama that exists during those suspenseful moments is perhaps greater than in any other sport.

 

Having no play clock = old timey-ness?

[OleMissCub]

Without the context of records being broken, no one cares.

 

I'll agree with you that the casual fan is probably pissed off because of records being broken in part because of PED's, but regardless of records, I still care. I don't want the Cubs to lose or win in part because of a criminal act, which abusing steroids IS.

[USSoccer]

Without the context of records being broken, no one cares.

 

I'll agree with you that the casual fan is probably pissed off because of records being broken in part because of PED's, but regardless of records, I still care. I don't want the Cubs to lose or win in part because of a criminal act, which abusing steroids IS.

 

So...presumably you don't want the New Orleans Saints to win because Reggie Bush illegally accepted money and benefits while at USC?

[OleMissCub]

 

Having no play clock = old timey-ness?

 

Shouldn't that be obvious?

 

When American football and basketball were first formalized, they had accurate means of easily keeping time....Baseball, not so much.

[OleMissCub]

Without the context of records being broken, no one cares.

 

I'll agree with you that the casual fan is probably pissed off because of records being broken in part because of PED's, but regardless of records, I still care. I don't want the Cubs to lose or win in part because of a criminal act, which abusing steroids IS.

 

So...presumably you don't want the New Orleans Saints to win because Reggie Bush illegally accepted money and benefits while at USC?

 

Do the Saints win or lose because of that, or even in part of that?

 

Terrible example.

[USSoccer]

Without the context of records being broken, no one cares.

 

I'll agree with you that the casual fan is probably pissed off because of records being broken in part because of PED's, but regardless of records, I still care. I don't want the Cubs to lose or win in part because of a criminal act, which abusing steroids IS.

 

So...presumably you don't want the New Orleans Saints to win because Reggie Bush illegally accepted money and benefits while at USC?

 

Do the Saints win or lose because of that, or even in part of that?

 

Terrible example.

 

Not really. Not only is it an event in the past (as everything in the Mitchell Report will be), but even if all 25 guys on the 2007 Red Sox are on the list, can you definitively say that that's why they won, considering the data will be at least 2 years old?

 

My point is this: Nothing in this report is new. This will be "Who Used PED's", not "Who is using PED's". It has no direct impact on the 2008 season on the field (or at least it shouldn't). This is an attempt at "cleaning up the record of baseball" by exposing people who bent rules that weren't really there when it was happening. It's all after the fact reporting.

 

So, considering that it's all after the fact, ask yourself what the real point is.

[OleMissCub]

I'm not even talking about the Mitchell Report when I'm bitching about PED's and my problem with player's using them. I just think it's wrong to gain an on field advantage using criminal means.

 

You are right about the Mitchell Report not doing much good, as it's purely a retroactive report that will have no real consequences on the present or the future, other than public opinion.

[Mizzou]

As a baseball fan, how can you honestly say that you don't care who has been cheating over the last X amount of years? That just boggles my mind.

[BigbadB]

Yep. I wanna know who done did it.

 

Especially the one's who did it and still sucked. :D

[SouthSideRyan]

Without the context of records being broken, no one cares.

 

I'll agree with you that the casual fan is probably pissed off because of records being broken in part because of PED's, but regardless of records, I still care. I don't want the Cubs to lose or win in part because of a criminal act, which abusing steroids IS.

 

So...presumably you don't want the New Orleans Saints to win because Reggie Bush illegally accepted money and benefits while at USC?

 

Do the Saints win or lose because of that, or even in part of that?

 

Terrible example.

 

I would bet my entire tiny bank account that somebody on the Saints uses steroids.

[Abe Frohman]

 

So...basically you agree with me.

 

Maybe I just misunderstood you. Not a hard task.