Marmol and his slider

[Peoriaman]

I continue to say that Marmol throws way too many sliders. He is almost afraid to throw his fastball, unless he is behind in the count. Hitters are now laying off his slider or waiting for the hanger.

[gruberted]

Definitely over throwing the slider tonight and looked nervous out there.

[XZero771679666304]

He was just over-amped and couldn't command his slider at all at first, allowing Reynolds to sit on a heater.

 

That was why I was hoping Carlos could work his butterflies out in a situation other than a late inning tie game.

[Peoriaman]

well, experience does help, regardless of what many say.

[bsucubsfan]

lou shoulda used the "experience" factor himself. He had pre-determined Zambrano goin 3 days rest. But you have to let him go if he's dominating like he was. He wasn't laboring at all, and was makin the best contact on the team. His movement was awesome tonight. if we take game 1 the dbacks would have been demoralized. I know marmol has been really good this year but the dbacks seemed pumped to see anyone but Zambrano in there. Gotta let him go and worry about the "if necessary" game IF it gets here later.

[TBone]

I agree w/ pulling Z at that point. He was at 80 some pitches or so? I think you'll see Z pulling another nice performance in Game 4 now. I really like the way Z's been pitching lately. Outside of his 3-day rest start which I think he was just too amped and overthinking himself, he's looked really, really good. If you ask me, he outpitched Webb tonight. Webb got lucky we stranded so many. Z made just one mistake.

 

Marmol was way overthrowing tonight. Bummer. I don't think he throws too many sliders when he's pitching well, but tonight he was just too amped. There's a place where a Kendall (don't throw tomatoes yet) may have been able to help, although thta would be negated by the 15 SB against him prior to that.

 

Personally, I thought that spot screemed for Woody. He's been there, been pitching very well out of the pen, and would give Marmol a chance at another time when perhaps there's not so much on the line. (for his first postseason experience)

 

I don't feel like we "lost anything" in this game as I thought Webb might pitch them to a win. Unfortunately, we had a great opportunity to steal that game and didn't pull through. Tomorrow night we even it up.

 

It'll just be a little tougher now, but I still feel we've got the tools. Just excecute guys and don't be over-anxious.

 

T

[CubmanPi]

I agree w/ pulling Z at that point. He was at 80 some pitches or so? I think you'll see Z pulling another nice performance in Game 4 now. I really like the way Z's been pitching lately. Outside of his 3-day rest start which I think he was just too amped and overthinking himself, he's looked really, really good. If you ask me, he outpitched Webb tonight. Webb got lucky we stranded so many. Z made just one mistake.

 

Marmol was way overthrowing tonight. Bummer. I don't think he throws too many sliders when he's pitching well, but tonight he was just too amped. There's a place where a Kendall (don't throw tomatoes yet) may have been able to help, although thta would be negated by the 15 SB against him prior to that.

 

Personally, I thought that spot screemed for Woody. He's been there, been pitching very well out of the pen, and would give Marmol a chance at another time when perhaps there's not so much on the line. (for his first postseason experience)

 

I don't feel like we "lost anything" in this game as I thought Webb might pitch them to a win. Unfortunately, we had a great opportunity to steal that game and didn't pull through. Tomorrow night we even it up.

 

It'll just be a little tougher now, but I still feel we've got the tools. Just excecute guys and don't be over-anxious.

 

T

You make valid points all the way through, except for the part about that spot screaming for Wood. Marmol's on however many days of rest, so using him there is exactly why he's been so valuable this season. He was the only choice. Anyone else in that spot who had the same bad inning would have people raging pissed at Lou for not using Marmol. I personally don't think pulling Z was the right move, but if it had to be done, Marmol was the right guy in the pen to come up.

[Butterscup1679666578]

If this was a 7 game series I wouldn't have been against pulling Z then at all, because there's a guaranteed game four. I'm not a big fan of the move because it seemed like Lou was seceding the game. Not that the offense had been doing anything, but still, Z was lights out tonight.

 

Whatever, if we win 1 or 2 of the next 2 and Z pitches a gem in Game 4 it'll look like a great move.

[TBone]

You make valid points all the way through, except for the part about that spot screaming for Wood. Marmol's on however many days of rest, so using him there is exactly why he's been so valuable this season. He was the only choice. Anyone else in that spot who had the same bad inning would have people raging pissed at Lou for not using Marmol. I personally don't think pulling Z was the right move, but if it had to be done, Marmol was the right guy in the pen to come up.

 

Lou was essentially saying our pen could better or equal theirs in the game by pulling Z and saving him for game 4, and in most cases I would agree...up to the closer. Unfortunately, Marmol had a bad night. He'll be back later in the series, and hopefully he'll pitch like he has something to prove.

 

But you're right, bring in Woodie or anyone else and give up a run and the second-guessing begins. As it was, the second-guessing has already started.

 

I still feel good w/ Lilly and Hill going in games 2 & 3. Lilly is the stopper of our starters and I think Hill is capable of pitching a better game than Hernandez.

 

Regardless, if we split in Arizona, we should be feeling good about our chances. Now, let's hope the top of the order can get things going tomorrow night.

 

I fully blame tonight's loss to my having to play a volleyball match starting at 8:15. I was unable to wear my Cubs jersey or my lucky pants, although I put the jersey on right about the time the Cubs tied it up. Tomorrow, Cubs jersey and lucky pants for the whole game. Hopefully my clothes stink by the time I show up in Chicago for game 3, as that would mean we won game 2 and I'm wearing the same stuff.

[kente777]

If this was a 7 game series I wouldn't have been against pulling Z then at all, because there's a guaranteed game four. I'm not a big fan of the move because it seemed like Lou was seceding the game. Not that the offense had been doing anything, but still, Z was lights out tonight.

 

Whatever, if we win 1 or 2 of the next 2 and Z pitches a gem in Game 4 it'll look like a great move.

 

For crying out loud, he brought in our most dominant reliever.....he wasn't conceding the game. He wasn't trying to lose the game.

 

I wish people would stop those types of comments. If Marmol goes 1-2-3 in this inning, this is a non-issue. If it were me, I probably would have left him in for one more inning, but I don't think it was a terrible blunder to take him out. I understand why Lou did it. If we have a decent 4th starter, then Lou definitely keeps him in. Thanks Marquis.

 

This series will go at least 4....you can bank on it, and a fresh Z on 3 days rest will be important.

 

The only glaring mistake, IMO, was not having Z bunt with a man on 2nd nobody out. You're down 1-0 to a really tough pitcher where runs are hard to come by....you bunt. As it turned out, Theriot would have scored on Sori's fly ball.

[ArthurVandalay]

 

For crying out loud, he brought in our most dominant reliever.....he wasn't conceding the game.

 

Zambrano was on auto-pilot, there was no reason to pull him. You don't pull a starter that YOU KNOW is dominant AT THAT TIME, even if it's for your best reliever. You don't know whether Marmol has his stuff or not that night, but you KNOW Zambrano does.

[kente777]

 

For crying out loud, he brought in our most dominant reliever.....he wasn't conceding the game.

 

Zambrano was on auto-pilot, there was no reason to pull him. You don't pull a starter that YOU KNOW is dominant AT THAT TIME, even if it's for your best reliever. You don't know whether Marmol has his stuff or not that night, but you KNOW Zambrano does.

 

Ok, I understand what you're saying and we can debate that.

 

But to say that Lou was trying to lose or concede the game, that's just plain assinine.

[Warren Brusstar]

well, experience does help, regardless of what many say.

 

Way to slay the strawman. Care to link me to a single post in the history of this board where someone opined that experience is irrelevant?

 

All other things being equal, I'll take the more experienced guy. But major league baseball teams generally overemphasize "experience." So when there's actually a decision between an experienced guy and an inexpercinced guy, rarely are "all other things equal." (If they were, the inexperienced guy wouldn't even be considered)

 

And I'll take the more talented, inexperienced guy every.single.time.

[kente777]

well, experience does help, regardless of what many say.

 

Way to slay the strawman. Care to link me to a single post in the history of this board where someone opined that experience is irrelevant?

 

All other things being equal, I'll take the more experienced guy. But major league baseball teams generally overemphasize "experience." So when there's actually a decision between an experienced guy and an inexpercinced guy, rarely are "all other things equal." (If they were, the inexperienced guy wouldn't even be considered)

 

And I'll take the more talented, inexperienced guy every.single.time.

 

Uh, people say that on this board all the time. In fact, there was a recent thread where I brought this up -- defending playoff experience -- and I was viciously attacked. Ok, maybe not viciously, but posters said that experience is not an issue in the playoffs.

Edited October 4, 2007 by kente777

[Warren Brusstar]

well, experience does help, regardless of what many say.

 

Way to slay the strawman. Care to link me to a single post in the history of this board where someone opined that experience is irrelevant?

 

All other things being equal, I'll take the more experienced guy. But major league baseball teams generally overemphasize "experience." So when there's actually a decision between an experienced guy and an inexpercinced guy, rarely are "all other things equal." (If they were, the inexperienced guy wouldn't even be considered)

 

And I'll take the more talented, inexperienced guy every.single.time.

 

Uh, people say that on this board all the time.

 

Link? People say inexperience is vastly overvalued. And it is. I've yet to see anyone make a serious case for experience being irrelevant.

[kente777]

well, experience does help, regardless of what many say.

 

Way to slay the strawman. Care to link me to a single post in the history of this board where someone opined that experience is irrelevant?

 

All other things being equal, I'll take the more experienced guy. But major league baseball teams generally overemphasize "experience." So when there's actually a decision between an experienced guy and an inexpercinced guy, rarely are "all other things equal." (If they were, the inexperienced guy wouldn't even be considered)

 

And I'll take the more talented, inexperienced guy every.single.time.

 

Uh, people say that on this board all the time.

 

Link? People say inexperience is vastly overvalued. And it is. I've yet to see anyone make a serious case for experience being irrelevant.

 

We just had a discussion a few days ago. I got rebuked for mentioning that I thought experience in the playoffs was a factor. Can't remember the link, but I'll try to find it.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Interesting that we're now playing the inexperienced angle after losing to a bunch of 24-year olds.

[CuseCubFan69]

Marmol looked tight. I don't know if he was nervous or just not warmed up enough. Edited October 4, 2007 by CuseCubFan69

[kente777]

well, experience does help, regardless of what many say.

 

Way to slay the strawman. Care to link me to a single post in the history of this board where someone opined that experience is irrelevant?

 

All other things being equal, I'll take the more experienced guy. But major league baseball teams generally overemphasize "experience." So when there's actually a decision between an experienced guy and an inexpercinced guy, rarely are "all other things equal." (If they were, the inexperienced guy wouldn't even be considered)

 

And I'll take the more talented, inexperienced guy every.single.time.

 

Uh, people say that on this board all the time.

 

Link? People say inexperience is vastly overvalued. And it is. I've yet to see anyone make a serious case for experience being irrelevant.

 

Here's your link:

viewtopic.php?t=44592

 

And btw, just because people don't use the word irrelevant, doesn't mean they don't think it is. If someone says experience is not a factor (which the link will show), that is the same as saying it is relevant. Something that is not a factor, is irrelevant -- same thing.

 

Listen, I'm not here to prove or disprove what people said about certain things. Most of the posters on this board, do not really value experience. I do. I think it is an intangible. No, you cannot objectively measure it, but it is a factor. I think it was a factor with Marmol last night. Hopefully, he got the butterfly's out of the way and he'll be dominant from here on out.

[kente777]

Interesting that we're now playing the inexperienced angle after losing to a bunch of 24-year olds.

 

No, we lost last night because our hitters couldn't hit Webb....no big surprise from me. I was hoping that somehow we could pull it out, but in my heart I knew the Cubs would look like little girls at the plate....and little girls they did look like. We had our chances, but we didn't capitalize.

[badnews]

Please, none of this "Tip your cap to Webb" stuff. He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch and the Cubs could've done a lot more damage than they did.

 

Furthermore, I think saving your ace pitcher for a game you may never play is preposterous. Lastly, in a 1-1 game where runs are at a scarcity, it doesn't behoove you to get into your bullpen too soon.

[CuseCubFan69]

Please, none of this "Tip your cap to Webb" stuff. He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch and the Cubs could've done a lot more damage than they did.

 

Furthermore, I think saving your ace pitcher for a game you may never play is preposterous. Lastly, in a 1-1 game where runs are at a scarcity, it doesn't behoove you to get into your bullpen too soon.

 

He had some hittable pitches but I thought he did a very nice job.

[rawaction]

Interesting that we're now playing the inexperienced angle after losing to a bunch of 24-year olds.

 

No, we lost last night because our hitters couldn't hit Webb....no big surprise from me. I was hoping that somehow we could pull it out, but in my heart I knew the Cubs would look like little girls at the plate....and little girls they did look like.

 

Hopefully, tonight we'll look like men.

 

Actually had a lot of good swings against him. None fell in. I thought the approach was ok, other than the inning of the Zambrano double.

 

Also, did anyone think after Theriot reached 2B on the error, that the Cubs should have bunt w/ Zambrano? Granted he had the hardest hit ball to that point and hit it hard again, but if he puts a bunt down, Soriano's line drive to CF, probably scores Theriot.

[kente777]

Interesting that we're now playing the inexperienced angle after losing to a bunch of 24-year olds.

 

No, we lost last night because our hitters couldn't hit Webb....no big surprise from me. I was hoping that somehow we could pull it out, but in my heart I knew the Cubs would look like little girls at the plate....and little girls they did look like.

 

Hopefully, tonight we'll look like men.

 

Actually had a lot of good swings against him. None fell in. I thought the approach was ok, other than the inning of the Zambrano double.

 

Also, did anyone think after Theriot reached 2B on the error, that the Cubs should have bunt w/ Zambrano? Granted he had the hardest hit ball to that point and hit it hard again, but if he puts a bunt down, Soriano's line drive to CF, probably scores Theriot.

 

Biggest blunder by Lou, IMO, was not bunting. You got a tough pitcher who's not gonna give up a lot of runs. Man on 3rd with 1 out would have been nice, especially since Sori hit it out of the infield.

[Warren Brusstar]

He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch.

 

Nonsense. He was filthy. I'm reasonably optimistic about doing better against him in Game 5 because the Cubs looked much better as the game went on. But he was really good.