Marmol and his slider

[Warren Brusstar]

I can tell people are BSing because they keep talking up his sinker when his sinker wasn't even what the thorn in the Cubs' side. Everyone who said "His sinker was nasty" or "his sinker was full of movement" or "his sinker was falling off the table" is bluffing that they actually know or just making excuses for the team. Webb was up much more often than he was, and it wasn't the movement, it was our hitters.

 

Go back and watch the game, and tell me about how filthy Webb was with all of those dead straight changeups taken right down the middle of the plate.

 

I'm simply not buying up to this defeatist attitude that we're helpless against good pitching or the idea that we looked bad because Webb was good.

 

I'm sure Webb is going to say in the post-game "I didn't have best stuff, so I was surprised when they showed no strike zone judgement." He was being professional.

 

1. Pitchers say they "didn't have their best stuff" all the freaking time. Of course he's not going to say "I was surprised when they showed no strike zone judgment."

 

2. It's spelled "judgment" not "judgement"

 

3. No one said we're "helpless" against good pitching. I thought we looked significantly better as the game went on and had some good swings the last 4-5 innings. I think we're going to shell Doug Davis tonight.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Warren Brusstar

[Peoriaman]

I can tell people are BSing because they keep talking up his sinker when his sinker wasn't even what the thorn in the Cubs' side. Everyone who said "His sinker was nasty" or "his sinker was full of movement" or "his sinker was falling off the table" is bluffing that they actually know or just making excuses for the team. Webb was up much more often than he was, and it wasn't the movement, it was our hitters.

 

Go back and watch the game, and tell me about how filthy Webb was with all of those dead straight changeups taken right down the middle of the plate.

 

I'm simply not buying up to this defeatist attitude that we're helpless against good pitching or the idea that we looked bad because Webb was good.

 

I'm sure Webb is going to say in the post-game "I didn't have best stuff, so I was surprised when they showed no strike zone judgement." He was being professional.

 

 

His stuff was very good last night. It is what it is. He handled us. Why are you so angry?

[badnews]

Webb didn't rub it in the Cubs' faces that he didn't have his best stuff, so obviously you're right. How much sense does that make? What else is he going to say?

 

I'm sorry you didn't pick up on the clearly satirical tone of my statement that this board seems content to just accept when the Cubs do badly it's the pitching.

 

Good pitchers can succeed with poor stuff against undisciplined teams without being great. I guess you can't accept that so I'll leave you to your "LOLs" and "ROFTHFLFSJFLMAJAJOs" and such.

[Peoriaman]

Webb didn't rub it in the Cubs' faces that he didn't have his best stuff, so obviously you're right. How much sense does that make? What else is he going to say?

 

I'm sorry you didn't pick up on the clearly satirical tone of my statement that this board seems content to just accept when the Cubs do badly it's the pitching.

 

Good pitchers can succeed with poor stuff against undisciplined teams without being great. I guess you can't accept that so I'll leave you to your "LOLs" and "ROFTHFLFSJFLMAJAJOs" and such.

 

 

We have a choice not to "accept it"? What difference does it make. A # 1 pitcher threw well against us. On to game 2.

[fromthestretch]

Webb didn't rub it in the Cubs' faces that he didn't have his best stuff, so obviously you're right. How much sense does that make? What else is he going to say?

 

I'm sorry you didn't pick up on the clearly satirical tone of my statement that this board seems content to just accept when the Cubs do badly it's the pitching.

 

Good pitchers can succeed with poor stuff against undisciplined teams without being great. I guess you can't accept that so I'll leave you to your "LOLs" and "ROFTHFLFSJFLMAJAJOs" and such.

 

Go have a Coke and a smile.

Edited October 4, 2007 by grassbass

[Warren Brusstar]

Webb didn't rub it in the Cubs' faces that he didn't have his best stuff, so obviously you're right. How much sense does that make? What else is he going to say?

 

I'm sorry you didn't pick up on the clearly satirical tone of my statement that this board seems content to just accept when the Cubs do badly it's the pitching.

 

Good pitchers can succeed with poor stuff against undisciplined teams without being great. I guess you can't accept that so I'll leave you to your "LOLs" and "ROFTHFLFSJFLMAJAJOs" and such.

 

1. Do you consider the 90% of pitchers that routinely say they didn't have their best stuff to be "rubbing it in"? Of course not.

 

2. Good pitchers can succeed with good or bad stuff. So what? Last night, Webb had good stuff.

[badnews]

Pitchers usually say they didn't have their best stuff when they go out there and get roughed up a little. He was being professional. I don't think it proves anything.

 

No, "judgement" is an accepted spelling of the word. We can have differing opinions about "stuff" but why don't you check your facts before you correct me.

 

Webb didn't have his best stuff. On other message boards people have agreed with that statement, and there's another topic on this board where someone dared expressed this sentiment before they saw they would be trampled by the herd.

 

Webb was pitching up in the zone. I'll buy his change and curve were "on" way before I'll buy his sinker was nasty.

Edited October 4, 2007 by badnews

[Warren Brusstar]

No, "judgement" is an accepted spelling of the word. We can have differing opinions about "stuff" but why don't you check your facts before you correct me.

 

If you're British? Yes.

[badnews]

It's accepted in the U.S. This is pedantic.

[nilodnayr]

I can tell people are BSing because they keep talking up his sinker when his sinker wasn't even what the thorn in the Cubs' side. Everyone who said "His sinker was nasty" or "his sinker was full of movement" or "his sinker was falling off the table" is bluffing that they actually know or just making excuses for the team. Webb was up much more often than he was, and it wasn't the movement, it was our hitters.

 

Go back and watch the game, and tell me about how filthy Webb was with all of those dead straight changeups taken right down the middle of the plate.

 

I'm simply not buying up to this defeatist attitude that we're helpless against good pitching or the idea that we looked bad because Webb was good.

 

I'm sure Webb is going to say in the post-game "I didn't have best stuff, so I was surprised when they showed no strike zone judgement." He was being professional.

 

I never said his SINKER was falling off the table, because (I and everyone else in the free world not named badnews (how appropriate)) believe that his sinker was at least adequate tonight, but his off-speed stuff was absolutely filthy. Thus he was able to keep us off balance.

 

I don't think we are helpless against good pitching, but I emplore YOU to go back and watch the game and see how far our swings were from the pitches. Of course it plays two to tango, but when you are making 3 of the better hitters in the league look like fools, you must be doing something right.

[kente777]

Webb didn't rub it in the Cubs' faces that he didn't have his best stuff, so obviously you're right. How much sense does that make? What else is he going to say?

 

I'm sorry you didn't pick up on the clearly satirical tone of my statement that this board seems content to just accept when the Cubs do badly it's the pitching.

 

Good pitchers can succeed with poor stuff against undisciplined teams without being great. I guess you can't accept that so I'll leave you to your "LOLs" and "ROFTHFLFSJFLMAJAJOs" and such.

 

Badnews,

 

My assessment last night was that Webb pitched a good game, but not great. I felt like we had our chances. After the 3rd inning, Webb's sinker was not as good as in the earlier innings....and I felt like the Cubs took many "right over the plate" pitches.

 

I think Webb was hitable last night, and I felt like we blew an opportunity.

[nilodnayr]

Webb didn't rub it in the Cubs' faces that he didn't have his best stuff, so obviously you're right. How much sense does that make? What else is he going to say?

 

I'm sorry you didn't pick up on the clearly satirical tone of my statement that this board seems content to just accept when the Cubs do badly it's the pitching.

 

Good pitchers can succeed with poor stuff against undisciplined teams without being great. I guess you can't accept that so I'll leave you to your "LOLs" and "ROFTHFLFSJFLMAJAJOs" and such.

 

Well that proves you clearly have poor judgment.

 

Have there been any LOLs in this thread? I think you need to go to an eye doctor.

[badnews]

It does not take a good pitcher to make Soriano swing at bad pitches. He's a free swinging hacker.

 

Derrek Lee's strike zone discipline has been a lot worse since the ASB. He's not making good decisions. He's taking more clear strikes than before. I'm not saying he's veering into Ben Grieve territory, but it's not the best I've seen Lee.

 

Aramis will chase pitches. If we were talking about hitters with great discipline who walk a lot and don't chase anything, I'd be more given to agree. But saying that Soriano chasing garbage is proof Webb was good is a flawed theory. Same with Lee as of late. Aramis is a little different story.

[badnews]

What proves I have bad judgement, or judgment? You're coming off like an opportunistic pile-on type concerning yourself with just picking and not being interested in the discussion.

 

Maybe you need the eye doctor. Check out post: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:06 am. Next time double check before you try and do the "show you up" thing although I'd prefer you didn't bother with that at all.

Edited October 4, 2007 by badnews

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Soriano's always been a lousy postseason hitter, and no, that's not just a sample size thing. His propensity to swing at utter garbage nowhere near the plate needs to end, fast.

[fromthestretch]

Derrek Lee's strike zone discipline has been a lot worse since the ASB.

 

The same bad strike zone discipline that led him to a .302/.386/.554 line in the second half?

 

Derrek Lee first half:

5.6 PA/K

9.1 PA/BB

 

Derrek Lee second half:

5.8 PA/K

9.2 PA/BB

 

I'm not seeing the poor second-half discipline.

[badnews]

I simply get exasperated at the "tip the cap" mentality and honestly feel that Webb did have his best stuff. Comments about his nasty sinker when I saw with my own eyes how more than usual he was up in the zone had me thinking some posters were being less than genuine commenting on his stuff. Finally, when too many hitters take meatballs right down the heart of the plate I think the problem is more than Webb. I also think people don't often bother to differentiate between a good pitcher who is untouchable, and a good pitcher on an off day against a team that fails to take advantage.

 

When Webb's stuff is good we don't even have baserunners to strand.

 

I actually remember days when people used to "tip their cap" in a non-satiric way to Victor Santos. "Santos just pitched the best game of his life," I actually remember that.

[nilodnayr]

What proves I have bad judgement, or judgment? You're coming off like an opportunistic pile-on type concerning yourself with just picking and not being interested in the discussion.

 

Maybe you need the eye doctor. Check out post: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:06 am. Next time double check before you try and do the "show you up" thing although I'd prefer you didn't bother with that at all.

 

Opportunistic pile on? I have 7 posts in this thread.

 

That LOL was not at your thoughts about Webb, it was at this ridiculous statement

 

I can't wait to hear about "Electric" Doug Davis and "Nasty" Livan Hernandez.

 

Reading comprehension is fundemental.

[badnews]

I've noticed it a lot with RISP. Check out Lee with RISP 1st half vs. 2nd half. August in particular he struggled.

 

I can admit when a pitcher beats the Cubs with good stuff. That day Jason Schmidt 1-hit the Cubs he had "filthy" stuff. I don't think Webb had it today. I think the Cubs helped him a lot.

[nilodnayr]

I simply get exasperated at the "tip the cap" mentality and honestly feel that Webb did have his best stuff. Comments about his nasty sinker when I saw with my own eyes how more than usual he was up in the zone had me thinking some posters were being less than genuine commenting on his stuff. Finally, when too many hitters take meatballs right down the heart of the plate I think the problem is more than Webb. I also think people don't often bother to differentiate between a good pitcher who is untouchable, and a good pitcher on an off day against a team that fails to take advantage.

 

When Webb's stuff is good we don't even have baserunners to strand.

 

I actually remember days when people used to "tip their cap" in a non-satiric way to Victor Santos. "Santos just pitched the best game of his life," I actually remember that.

 

I haven't said "tip your cap", maybe others have, I didn't see it. We could have won that game. Webb was wearing down a bit and losing some control towards the end. That doesnt mean that I don't think he was pitching quite well in totality. But even if I think hes pitching quite well, that doesnt excuse our hitters. No one here is taking it to the extreme that you are. We could have hit Webb better for sure, but that doesnt mean he had an off game.

 

Your saying, when Webb is good he pitches a perfect game. Well, maybe your definition of good, is just a smidge different than everyone else.

[nilodnayr]

I've noticed it a lot with RISP. Check out Lee with RISP 1st half vs. 2nd half. August in particular he struggled.

 

I can admit when a pitcher beats the Cubs with good stuff. That day Jason Schmidt 1-hit the Cubs he had "filthy" stuff. I don't think Webb had it today. I think the Cubs helped him a lot.

 

 

Ahh, so when what you've "noticed" is proven untrue with facts, you change the story.

 

Again, there are shades of gray, pitchers can be good, or have filthy stuff and not throw a 1-hitter.

[badnews]

You said there were no "LOLs." There were. So you're wrong. In any event this argument is stupid.

 

You could call my statement ridiculous if unfortunately I didn't see people give props to the mediocre pitching great games.

 

If reading is "fundamental," so is spelling.

 

At least the other people are arguing legitimately. You're just playing this petulant little game of one-upsmanship.

[nolanwood]

I though Webb had great stuff for the first few innings - but he faded fast. He left alot of pitches up in the zone, and we couldn't capitalize - stranding multiple runners at 2nd base.

 

We lost the game last night because Lou was playing for Game 4 - a game that we might not even get a chance to see.

[CubColtPacer]

I simply get exasperated at the "tip the cap" mentality and honestly feel that Webb did have his best stuff. Comments about his nasty sinker when I saw with my own eyes how more than usual he was up in the zone had me thinking some posters were being less than genuine commenting on his stuff. Finally, when too many hitters take meatballs right down the heart of the plate I think the problem is more than Webb. I also think people don't often bother to differentiate between a good pitcher who is untouchable, and a good pitcher on an off day against a team that fails to take advantage.

 

When Webb's stuff is good we don't even have baserunners to strand.

 

I actually remember days when people used to "tip their cap" in a non-satiric way to Victor Santos. "Santos just pitched the best game of his life," I actually remember that.

 

So does most of the board. If somebody went back and read through all the game logs and all the rants pages after the Cubs struggled on offense this year, you'll see many rants about tip your cap. This board is very much one to blame the offense and probably not give as much credit to the pitcher as is sometimes due. When they actually do give credit, it then makes you sit up and notice because it doesn't happen very often.

 

Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing to focus on what our offense is doing right/doing wrong rather than what the pitcher is doing. I'm just saying that these posts crediting Webb are not common for most pitchers, and the board is not nearly as quick to tip the cap as you're implying.

 

As for the sinker, I think some people are confusing his sinker (which was only ok last night) with the nasty changeup that he was striking quite a few out with low in the zone. Here's a quote from Lee:

 

"His ball just disappears," Lee said in front of his locker. "He really had great movement, and he was throwing a changeup off that sinker. It was really hard to pick up. You just don't see many right-handed pitchers throwing that to right-handed hitters. You think it's a sinker, but [it's a changeup and] it never gets here."

 

And an add on from Webb:

 

Basically my offspeed pitches were as good as I've had them probably this year

 

When Lee sounds mystified even after the game, and Webb states that he had the best offspeed stuff of the year (which certainly he doesn't say very often) it's pretty certain the players all think he had good stuff.

[badnews]

I wasn't changing my story. Those are just situations within the second half. It still feels like you're trying to play a game of "gotcha" or something.

 

When Webb is on he looks better than he did against the Cubs. I don't use the word "filthy" or "nasty" lightly.