Geovany Soto

[Peoriaman]

the switch-a-roo so many have done on the need for defense out of catcher has been rather nauseating.

 

the benefit of defense out of a catcher was one of the most intense debates on this board in May, June, and July. Hendry acquires a catcher who's not too handy with the glove and arm, and suddenly there is no debate. suddenly everyone seems to agree that we need good defense out of our catcher.

 

For the millionth time, it's a matter of degrees. Barrett was below average in most defensive aspects and occasionally made some dumb decisions. He was also one of the best offensive catchers in baseball. Kendall is physically incapable of throwing anyone, anyone, out on the basepaths, and at his best he provides plus OBP with zero XBH. They are different situations.

 

I actually think Kendall is a better "receiver" than Barrett. I also trust his leadership more, which is crucial in a catcher.

 

He'd better have leadership coming out of his ears for it to be worth turning every walk and base hit into a double for our pitchers.

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. That may be the worst exaggeration on this board all week. I will apologize if someone can produce the stat which backs this up. You don't make your case very well when you make silly statements like this.

 

His CS% as a Cub is pretty easily the worst of any catcher who's gotten regular time(save Josh Bard, and he's catching several of the most notoriously "slow to the plate" SP in baseball). He's given up 50 steals in 47 starts. More than once a game teams are taking a free base off of him, and he throws out a pathetic < 10% of them. It's not an exaggeration to say that Kendall's presence compared to Soto is going to cost the team multiple bases, considering in his short stint Soto has been 3 times more effective throwing people out.

 

 

Giving up some stolen bases hardly turns "every base hit and walk" into a double. I never said he was anything but a bad thrower, but the exaggeration there had to be pointed out.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Peoriaman

[CuseCubFan69]

the switch-a-roo so many have done on the need for defense out of catcher has been rather nauseating.

 

the benefit of defense out of a catcher was one of the most intense debates on this board in May, June, and July. Hendry acquires a catcher who's not too handy with the glove and arm, and suddenly there is no debate. suddenly everyone seems to agree that we need good defense out of our catcher.

 

For the millionth time, it's a matter of degrees. Barrett was below average in most defensive aspects and occasionally made some dumb decisions. He was also one of the best offensive catchers in baseball. Kendall is physically incapable of throwing anyone, anyone, out on the basepaths, and at his best he provides plus OBP with zero XBH. They are different situations.

 

I actually think Kendall is a better "receiver" than Barrett. I also trust his leadership more, which is crucial in a catcher.

 

He'd better have leadership coming out of his ears for it to be worth turning every walk and base hit into a double for our pitchers.

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. That may be the worst exaggeration on this board all week. I will apologize if someone can produce the stat which backs this up. You don't make your case very well when you make silly statements like this.

 

His CS% as a Cub is pretty easily the worst of any catcher who's gotten regular time(save Josh Bard, and he's catching several of the most notoriously "slow to the plate" SP in baseball). He's given up 50 steals in 47 starts. More than once a game teams are taking a free base off of him, and he throws out a pathetic < 10% of them. It's not an exaggeration to say that Kendall's presence compared to Soto is going to cost the team multiple bases, considering in his short stint Soto has been 3 times more effective throwing people out.

 

And what were Barretts numbers throwing out runners this year?

[Banedon]

He'd better have leadership coming out of his ears for it to be worth turning every walk and base hit into a double for our pitchers.

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. That may be the worst exaggeration on this board all week. I will apologize if someone can produce the stat which backs this up. You don't make your case very well when you make silly statements like this.

 

 

Combined with Oakland and the Cubs this year, he has allowed a league leading (and staggering!) 110 stolen bases. He's caught 20.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&split=78&sortColumn=catcherStolenBasesAllowed

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Giving up some stolen bases hardly turns "every single" into a double.

 

I'm not going to turn this into semantics. No other catcher in baseball is even close when it comes to giving up SB, especially Kendall's performance as a Cub. He gets run on the most often, he throws out the fewest, and it's because everyone knows he simply doesn't have the arm to do it any more. To ignore the very tangible effect that will have over Soto, who's done everything you could possibly ask out of a catcher, is insanity.

 

Bonus fun fact: Kendall's also in the bottom 5 in passed balls.

[brinoch]

That's not good.

[Soul]

the switch-a-roo so many have done on the need for defense out of catcher has been rather nauseating.

 

the benefit of defense out of a catcher was one of the most intense debates on this board in May, June, and July. Hendry acquires a catcher who's not too handy with the glove and arm, and suddenly there is no debate. suddenly everyone seems to agree that we need good defense out of our catcher.

 

For the millionth time, it's a matter of degrees. Barrett was below average in most defensive aspects and occasionally made some dumb decisions. He was also one of the best offensive catchers in baseball. Kendall is physically incapable of throwing anyone, anyone, out on the basepaths, and at his best he provides plus OBP with zero XBH. They are different situations.

 

I actually think Kendall is a better "receiver" than Barrett. I also trust his leadership more, which is crucial in a catcher.

 

He'd better have leadership coming out of his ears for it to be worth turning every walk and base hit into a double for our pitchers.

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. That may be the worst exaggeration on this board all week. I will apologize if someone can produce the stat which backs this up. You don't make your case very well when you make silly statements like this.

 

His CS% as a Cub is pretty easily the worst of any catcher who's gotten regular time(save Josh Bard, and he's catching several of the most notoriously "slow to the plate" SP in baseball). He's given up 50 steals in 47 starts. More than once a game teams are taking a free base off of him, and he throws out a pathetic < 10% of them. It's not an exaggeration to say that Kendall's presence compared to Soto is going to cost the team multiple bases, considering in his short stint Soto has been 3 times more effective throwing people out.

 

And what were Barretts numbers throwing out runners this year?

 

To be honest I'm not getting the focus on comparisons with Barrett. Who cares? We weren't 3 wins/losses away from clinching back then, it's not the same situation. With Barrett, no matter how you felt about the guy there were many, many games left to be played where he could possibly play better, or worse.

 

Now it's all about who will give us a better chance to win over the course of 4 games. That's just completely and totally different, so digging into someone for a not treating this situation the same as the Barrett situation rings hollow to me.

 

Does Kendall really give us a better chance in the short term, regardless of matchups, just because he is more experienced than Soto? That's the question. And to me the answer is clearly no.

[jjgman21]

His career does mean something, as well as how he has played since he got here. I can live with either, but it isn't as cut and dried as many think. Personally, I would always go with experience, esp at catcher, if it is close.

 

Even if the experience tells you definitively that you are playing one of the weakest defensive catchers in the league?

 

I'm not with you [-(

 

This year Barrett did worse than Kendall and I didn't see too many people yell about that and Barrett may be worse defensively than Kendall too.

 

the switch-a-roo so many have done on the need for defense out of catcher has been rather nauseating.

 

the benefit of defense out of a catcher was one of the most intense debates on this board in May, June, and July. Hendry acquires a catcher who's not too handy with the glove and arm, and suddenly there is no debate. suddenly everyone seems to agree that we need good defense out of our catcher.

 

For the millionth time, it's a matter of degrees. Barrett was below average in most defensive aspects and occasionally made some dumb decisions. He was also one of the best offensive catchers in baseball. Kendall is physically incapable of throwing anyone, anyone, out on the basepaths, and at his best he provides plus OBP with zero XBH. They are different situations.

 

oh puh-leez. saying Kendall is worse than Barrett at defense to any degree is garbage. maybe he's slightly worse, but I doubt that. Barrett's about as bad as it gets.

 

Barrett was below average in most defensive aspects...the past couple of years. this year he was just horrendous. believe me, as I was one who defended Barrett's defensive abilities the past couple years, but after middle May 2007, I could not longer continue to do so. and Barrett WAS one of the best offensive catchers in baseball. now suddenly we want to diminish the importance of OBP over SLG, where as in any other context you and any of the other switch a roos would argue the opposite.

 

no context was needed, and they are not different situations. this went from a board ranting that we traded for Rob Bowen and had Koyie Hill because defense out of a catcher was over-rated (despite Barrett continuing to stink it up offensively in SD), to the board ranting about how horrible Kendall was at defense the instant he was acquired.

 

it was literally overnight that many had a change of opinion on the importance of defense out of a catcher. the very night that Kendall played his first game, many who previously went on and on about the lack of importance out of catcher's defense, who only weeks earlier were excusing Barrett for not catching the four hopper from rightfield, were suddenly blaming the loss of that game on catcher's defense.

 

I want Soto to be starting as bad as anyone, but let's stop reinventing history in order to make the point.

[Peoriaman]

Giving up some stolen bases hardly turns "every single" into a double.

 

I'm not going to turn this into semantics. No other catcher in baseball is even close when it comes to giving up SB, especially Kendall's performance as a Cub. He gets run on the most often, he throws out the fewest, and it's because everyone knows he simply doesn't have the arm to do it any more. To ignore the very tangible effect that will have over Soto, who's done everything you could possibly ask out of a catcher, is insanity.

 

Bonus fun fact: Kendall's also in the bottom 5 in passed balls.

 

 

Nice laydown. That isn't "semantics", but a gross exaggeration.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And what were Barretts numbers throwing out runners this year?

 

As a Cub:

 

Barrett gave up 32 steals, 7 CS, for a 17.9 CS% in 52 starts

 

Kendall gave up 50 steals, 5 CS, for a 9.1 CS% in 47 starts

[Banedon]

Giving up some stolen bases hardly turns "every single" into a double.

 

I'm not going to turn this into semantics. No other catcher in baseball is even close when it comes to giving up SB, especially Kendall's performance as a Cub. He gets run on the most often, he throws out the fewest, and it's because everyone knows he simply doesn't have the arm to do it any more. To ignore the very tangible effect that will have over Soto, who's done everything you could possibly ask out of a catcher, is insanity.

 

Bonus fun fact: Kendall's also in the bottom 5 in passed balls.

 

 

Nice laydown. That isn't "semantics", but a gross exaggeration.

 

Did you see the stat I posted? 110 SB allowed. No other catcher in baseball is close.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Giving up some stolen bases hardly turns "every single" into a double.

 

I'm not going to turn this into semantics. No other catcher in baseball is even close when it comes to giving up SB, especially Kendall's performance as a Cub. He gets run on the most often, he throws out the fewest, and it's because everyone knows he simply doesn't have the arm to do it any more. To ignore the very tangible effect that will have over Soto, who's done everything you could possibly ask out of a catcher, is insanity.

 

Bonus fun fact: Kendall's also in the bottom 5 in passed balls.

 

 

Nice laydown. That isn't "semantics", but a gross exaggeration.

 

Good grief, did you really think I meant that every single baserunner we allow with Kendall catching gets to second? I've reiterated the point several times now. He's the worst catcher in baseball at throwing out runners, teams know this, and they are running on him more than any other catcher in baseball because of it. This leads to a lot of people getting free trips to second base. A lot more than Soto, who's shown an ability to throw more than 1 out of every 11 baserunners out, and who's also pounded the crap out of the ball for the last 6 months. It's a very easy decision on who should be catching.

[Soul]

Barrett: offense without D

Kendall: offense without D

 

Bowen: D with no O

Hill: D with no O

 

Soto: some of both.

 

 

Soto should receive some consideration to play a couple games just based on that, if the matchup doesn't favor Kendall's bat. Hey -- maybe we play Kendall, I actually don't hate the guy I think he's done well for us. I'm happy he's here.

 

I'm just a little irked that Lou seems to be throwing some of his managerial options out the window, that's all.

 

I'll still root like hell for Kendall, don't get me wrong. I'll be pulling for him every bit of the way.

 

As for Barrett, for my part that's still a very painful memory. I really wanted him to succeed as well, and was pretty upset when things turned out the way they did.

[Peoriaman]

Giving up some stolen bases hardly turns "every single" into a double.

 

I'm not going to turn this into semantics. No other catcher in baseball is even close when it comes to giving up SB, especially Kendall's performance as a Cub. He gets run on the most often, he throws out the fewest, and it's because everyone knows he simply doesn't have the arm to do it any more. To ignore the very tangible effect that will have over Soto, who's done everything you could possibly ask out of a catcher, is insanity.

 

Bonus fun fact: Kendall's also in the bottom 5 in passed balls.

 

 

Nice laydown. That isn't "semantics", but a gross exaggeration.

 

Good grief, did you really think I meant that every single baserunner we allow with Kendall catching gets to second? I've reiterated the point several times now. He's the worst catcher in baseball at throwing out runners, teams know this, and they are running on him more than any other catcher in baseball because of it. This leads to a lot of people getting free trips to second base. A lot more than Soto, who's shown an ability to throw more than 1 out of every 11 baserunners out, and who's also pounded the crap out of the ball for the last 6 months. It's a very easy decision on who should be catching.

 

 

Nope, I didn't believe it because it wasn't true. It was a gross exaggeration and those kind of statements don't help your arguments. it just makes you seem overly emotional and less rational.

[Banedon]

Nope, I didn't believe it because it wasn't true. It was a gross exaggeration and those kind of statements don't help your arguments. it just makes you seem overly emotional and less rational.

 

But you dismiss rational arguments because "Lou knows best."

[Peoriaman]

Barrett: offense without D

Kendall: offense without D

 

Bowen: D with no O

Hill: D with no O

 

Soto: some of both.

 

 

Soto should receive some consideration to play a couple games just based on that, if the matchup doesn't favor Kendall's bat. Hey -- maybe we play Kendall, I actually don't hate the guy I think he's done well for us. I'm happy he's here.

 

I'm just a little irked that Lou seems to be throwing some of his managerial options out the window, that's all.

 

I'll still root like hell for Kendall, don't get me wrong. I'll be pulling for him every bit of the way.

 

As for Barrett, for my part that's still a very painful memory. I really wanted him to succeed as well, and was pretty upset when things turned out the way they did.

 

 

Very well said.

[Peoriaman]

Nope, I didn't believe it because it wasn't true. It was a gross exaggeration and those kind of statements don't help your arguments. it just makes you seem overly emotional and less rational.

 

But you dismiss rational arguments because "Lou knows best."

 

 

I don't "dismiss" any arguments. I just think it is a close enough call that I trust Lou on this one. Lou has played Soto quite a bit and I suspect will play him some more.

 

As an aside, with what little I know, I would play Soto at least 2 of the remaining games, but I don't think Lou is a flaming idiot for playing Kendall.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Giving up some stolen bases hardly turns "every single" into a double.

 

I'm not going to turn this into semantics. No other catcher in baseball is even close when it comes to giving up SB, especially Kendall's performance as a Cub. He gets run on the most often, he throws out the fewest, and it's because everyone knows he simply doesn't have the arm to do it any more. To ignore the very tangible effect that will have over Soto, who's done everything you could possibly ask out of a catcher, is insanity.

 

Bonus fun fact: Kendall's also in the bottom 5 in passed balls.

 

 

Nice laydown. That isn't "semantics", but a gross exaggeration.

 

Good grief, did you really think I meant that every single baserunner we allow with Kendall catching gets to second? I've reiterated the point several times now. He's the worst catcher in baseball at throwing out runners, teams know this, and they are running on him more than any other catcher in baseball because of it. This leads to a lot of people getting free trips to second base. A lot more than Soto, who's shown an ability to throw more than 1 out of every 11 baserunners out, and who's also pounded the crap out of the ball for the last 6 months. It's a very easy decision on who should be catching.

 

 

Nope, I didn't believe it because it wasn't true. It was a gross exaggeration and those kind of statements don't help your arguments. it just makes you seem overly emotional and less rational.

 

The idea that me using a hyperbolic statement to help illustrate(with statistics and comparisons to other players) the nature of just how awful Kendall is at throwing out baserunners makes me look overemotional and irrational is hilarious. You're making strawman arguments and when prodded to the point you don't have an argument other than "Lou made the decision and I trust him".

[Peoriaman]

Giving up some stolen bases hardly turns "every single" into a double.

 

I'm not going to turn this into semantics. No other catcher in baseball is even close when it comes to giving up SB, especially Kendall's performance as a Cub. He gets run on the most often, he throws out the fewest, and it's because everyone knows he simply doesn't have the arm to do it any more. To ignore the very tangible effect that will have over Soto, who's done everything you could possibly ask out of a catcher, is insanity.

 

Bonus fun fact: Kendall's also in the bottom 5 in passed balls.

 

 

Nice laydown. That isn't "semantics", but a gross exaggeration.

 

Good grief, did you really think I meant that every single baserunner we allow with Kendall catching gets to second? I've reiterated the point several times now. He's the worst catcher in baseball at throwing out runners, teams know this, and they are running on him more than any other catcher in baseball because of it. This leads to a lot of people getting free trips to second base. A lot more than Soto, who's shown an ability to throw more than 1 out of every 11 baserunners out, and who's also pounded the crap out of the ball for the last 6 months. It's a very easy decision on who should be catching.

 

 

Nope, I didn't believe it because it wasn't true. It was a gross exaggeration and those kind of statements don't help your arguments. it just makes you seem overly emotional and less rational.

 

The idea that me using a hyperbolic statement to help illustrate(with statistics and comparisons to other players) the nature of just how awful Kendall is at throwing out baserunners makes me look overemotional and irrational is hilarious. You're making strawman arguments and when prodded to the point you don't have an argument other than "Lou made the decision and I trust him".

 

 

Simply admit you made a gross exaggeration and move on. Or don't, whatever. But stop being silly about your statement.

[brinoch]

I find this "debate" entertaining. Soto is better than Kendall both behind and at the plate. Whether or not you believe a catcher's defense is critical, Soto's still an upgrade over Kendall.

 

Personally, I believe that defense tends to be important -- or a reason to play another player -- only when someone is so glaringly awful that their offensive contributions cannot sufficiently offset their defensive shortcomings. Alternatively, if two players are more or less the same offensively, but one is better defensively, I'd play the better defensive player.

 

I'd be curious to see how many additional bases Kendall's given up (stolen bases and passed balls) while with the Cubs as compared to his total number of offensive bases. Moreover, I think Kendall's responsible for a bunch of wild pitches that other catchers would stop, so I'd be curious to see if our pitchers' WP percentage is higher with Kendall than without. If I have time this afternoon, I'll try and determine this -- unless someone else wants to take it on.

[inari]

Does anyone know if Soto will be starting today? The trend seems to be that he starts versus left handers.

[Peoriaman]

see my other posts about my argument on catcher. Close call, I trust Lou's judgment. I realize it is heresy to trust the judgment of someone more knowledgable than you, but so be it.

[wolf stansson]

I don't think Lou is a flaming idiot for playing Kendall.

His team is in a pennant race. Lou may not be a flaming idiot, but playing Kendall over Soto is a flamingly idiotic move.

[abuck1220]

Does anyone know if Soto will be starting today? The trend seems to be that he starts versus left handers.

 

lou said that kendall is going to be the starter the rest of the way...possibly for all five games. so i doubt soto is starting. look forward to lots of infield groundballs and stolen bases by the opponent.

[Banedon]

see my other posts about my argument on catcher. Close call, I trust Lou's judgment. I realize it is heresy to trust the judgment of someone more knowledgable than you, but so be it.

 

Again, my main argument is that it's not a close call.

[wolf stansson]

Simply admit you made a gross exaggeration and move on. Or don't, whatever. But stop being silly about your statement.

Or maybe stop being so condescending to someone who has a better laid out and more reasoned argument and could ban you.