Lou Piniella veering into Dusty Baker Territory

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm actually starting to miss Dusty Baker. At least his mistakes were made once, and you knew what they were after you saw the lineup card... and you always knew he'd bugger the pitch count. But at least as we went in to close games, you didn't know he'd be doing his best to proactively ruin our chances come the sixth inning.

 

I'm mad at this paragraph.

 

Dusty only made mistakes once? Wrong.

 

Dusty didn't sabotage the team late in the game? Wrong.

 

Dusty routinely made mistakes over and over, and when it came to late in the game, his double switching often hurt the team, as was his "one step behind" timing of getting relievers warmed. His excuse for not having the best matchup was always that the reliever wasn't warmed up yet, because he couldn't think more than one at bat in advance. At least Lou doesn't suffer that problem.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Dusty only made mistakes once? Wrong.

 

I interpreted that to mean when Dusty screwed something up, it stayed screwed up.

[Derwood]

Dusty only made mistakes once? Wrong.

 

I interpreted that to mean when Dusty screwed something up, it stayed screwed up.

 

he just made one mistake over and over and over and over

[jersey cubs fan]

Dusty only made mistakes once? Wrong.

 

I interpreted that to mean when Dusty screwed something up, it stayed screwed up.

 

he just made one mistake over and over and over and over

 

Showing up?

[Derwood]

Dusty only made mistakes once? Wrong.

 

I interpreted that to mean when Dusty screwed something up, it stayed screwed up.

 

he just made one mistake over and over and over and over

 

Showing up?

 

you read my mind

[Soriano12]

I nominate General Zod for next Cubs manager

 

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/adc/10101814A~Terence-Stamp-General-Zod-Posters.jpg

 

That's actually a pretty good idea.

 

It would probably get old quick the way he would ask the other managers to kneel before the game at the lineup swaps, though.

 

He wouldn't have to ask. It would just be done.

[Rob]

Dusty only made mistakes once? Wrong.

 

I interpreted that to mean when Dusty screwed something up, it stayed screwed up.

 

Yeah, that's what I was shooting for. Dusty may have stuck it to us, but at no point were we uncertain it was coming... it was just what he had been doing for the last few weeks.

[hardcorecubfan]

I miss Jim Riggleman then, if anyone is missing dusty

[TheDude]

i know you guys are frusturated, but it's quite sophmoric to think any of this is Lou's fault.

 

Your taking the players inadequacies out on him.

 

I must have missed the part where Lou didn't actually make any of the mistakes I listed on the first page. How sophomoric of me.

 

They aren't mistakes, they are nitpicks using the benefit of hind-sight. This thread doesn't exist if Izturis or Jones gets a hit.

 

Expecting Lou to pinch-hit for Izturis is wrong. How many current managers would have pinch-hit in that situation? Any? Izturis isn't a good hitter, but that situation is just fine for him. All you want is the ball in play to score a run, even just a ground ball, and Izturis does that fairly well.

 

Marshall was under 100 pitches and in control of the game. I don't understand why he should have been taken out because someone reached base. People would then cry that Lou doesn't have faith in his younger players and isn't giving them a shot.

 

And why would Ward be a better choice than Jones in the 9th? Both are lefties and Jones had better numbers than Ward against the pitcher (albeit in such a small sample). This "mistake" is just fan disapproval for Jones showing up.

[Soriano12]

on a serious note, I do agree with the poster who said we should have hired Fredi Gonzales. I'm tired of the retread managers. I had high hopes for Piniella, but it is the same crap.

 

Kissing veteran's asses day after day, and throwing young players under the bus. It needs to stop.

[killthegoat06]

Can you guys recap the problems from yesterday? Recaps of games are surf controlled at school.

[jersey cubs fan]

i know you guys are frusturated, but it's quite sophmoric to think any of this is Lou's fault.

 

Your taking the players inadequacies out on him.

 

I must have missed the part where Lou didn't actually make any of the mistakes I listed on the first page. How sophomoric of me.

 

They aren't mistakes, they are nitpicks using the benefit of hind-sight. This thread doesn't exist if Izturis or Jones gets a hit.

 

Expecting Lou to pinch-hit for Izturis is wrong. How many current managers would have pinch-hit in that situation? Any? Izturis isn't a good hitter, but that situation is just fine for him. All you want is the ball in play to score a run, even just a ground ball, and Izturis does that fairly well.

 

Marshall was under 100 pitches and in control of the game. I don't understand why he should have been taken out because someone reached base. People would then cry that Lou doesn't have faith in his younger players and isn't giving them a shot.

 

And why would Ward be a better choice than Jones in the 9th? Both are lefties and Jones had better numbers than Ward against the pitcher (albeit in such a small sample). This "mistake" is just fan disapproval for Jones showing up.

 

Lou has pinch hit for Izturis before. Lots of managers have, and would. A ground ball causes a DP so that's exactly what you don't want? That makes no sense.

 

Marshall is coming off rehab and hasn't gone very deep into games.

[Rob]

i know you guys are frusturated, but it's quite sophmoric to think any of this is Lou's fault.

 

Your taking the players inadequacies out on him.

 

I must have missed the part where Lou didn't actually make any of the mistakes I listed on the first page. How sophomoric of me.

 

They aren't mistakes, they are nitpicks using the benefit of hind-sight. This thread doesn't exist if Izturis or Jones gets a hit.

 

Expecting Lou to pinch-hit for Izturis is wrong. How many current managers would have pinch-hit in that situation? Any? Izturis isn't a good hitter, but that situation is just fine for him. All you want is the ball in play to score a run, even just a ground ball, and Izturis does that fairly well.

 

Marshall was under 100 pitches and in control of the game. I don't understand why he should have been taken out because someone reached base. People would then cry that Lou doesn't have faith in his younger players and isn't giving them a shot.

 

And why would Ward be a better choice than Jones in the 9th? Both are lefties and Jones had better numbers than Ward against the pitcher (albeit in such a small sample). This "mistake" is just fan disapproval for Jones showing up.

 

Ummm,

 

1. I didn't nitpick about any particular in-game decision from last night.

 

2. Lou's been lucky to get a free pass from a thread like this so far. It was past due time.

 

3. And the benefits of hindsight? We all blasted those particular (from my earlier post, not yours) decisions the moments he made them, and he's been wrong about the lot of them. Hindsight has nothing to do with it; it's just good baseball sense and Lou couldn't have less of a grasp on it.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Rob

[Amazing_Grace]

I think this thread is a little premature. I think you need more than 2 months to evaluate a manager's tenure. Every manager is going to make decisions that we, as fans, disagree with.

 

I personally would have pinch hit for Izturis last night also, but I can understand why he waited. We had a 1-0 lead and Lou thought he needed Izturis's defense. All Izturis has to do is hit a chopper or a fly ball and the run scores. Worst case, he strikes out and you bring in the PH for Marshall, who was due up next. You don't expect Izturis to ground into a DP. Lou may very well have been saving Theriot for the bases loaded 2 outs scenario, thinking they would leave a tired Wells out there rather than bring in a right hander who would then have to face Jones/Floyd/Ward.

 

Lou hasn't abused the pitchers with big 120+ pitch outings, so he's already corrected what was, by far, the biggest problem with Dusty's tenure. He recognizes splits. He has tried to sit Jones against lefties, though Hendry's personnel decisions and having Soriano have to move to left haven't made that easy. He's played Theriot at SS or 2b most of the time for the past 3 weeks. Dusty would NEVER have benched Izturis at all. He's had enough sense to put Jones in CF rather than keep him in left to try to get his best possible lineup, again, trying to make the best of Hendry's stupid offseason moves. He has kept Wade Miller out of the starting rotation after it became apparent his ST success would not continue. He seems to appreciate the need to have guys get on base at the top of the lineup; why else would he have put Theriot second and then leadoff when Lee was injured. Dusty would have had Pagan or Izturis leading off (or he wouldn't have moved Soriano).

 

To say Lou is a worse manager than Dusty is extreme overreaction. He has his faults as all managers do. His handling of the bullpen has been questionable, and I don't agree with the decision to move Guzman to the pen. Howver, blaming a guy who's only been the team's manager for 6 months, only 2 of which have been regular season, is unfair. Give him a season before we come down too hard on him. If you want to know why this team is bad, look at who has been making personnel decisions for the past 5 years.

[jersey cubs fan]

One thing Lou has surpassed Baker in is that gut. I don't know if it was the jacket or not, but when I saw him go get Wuertz, he looked as fat as I've ever seen a baseball manager. That thing was a good 3 feet in front of his face. My lord. Is the old man's body wearing down under the stress?

[Soriano12]

Can you guys recap the problems from yesterday? Recaps of games are surf controlled at school.

 

Confirming our suspicisions, some random, fat, 50 year old drunk, shut down the Cubs offense.

 

Thats about it. Hendry and Piniella blamed Sean Marshall for the loss following the game and traded him for Chone Figguns who brings alot of tools and "grit" to the Cubs.

[abuck1220]

 

Expecting Lou to pinch-hit for Izturis is wrong. How many current managers would have pinch-hit in that situation? Any? Izturis isn't a good hitter, but that situation is just fine for him. All you want is the ball in play to score a run, even just a ground ball, and Izturis does that fairly well.

 

actually a ground ball was about the last thing you wanted.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'll blame him for not pinch hitting for Izturis for sure, but I'm fine with Marshall staying in the game(he was dealing and was under 100 pitches), and Jones pinch hitting. Jacque took a good approach in the AB and hit the ball hard.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'll blame him for not pinch hitting for Izturis for sure, but I'm fine with Marshall staying in the game(he was dealing and was under 100 pitches), and Jones pinch hitting. Jacque took a good approach in the AB and hit the ball hard.

 

But wasn't he at about 95 and wasn't that about the limit during his rehab? 4 of the previous 6 outs were in the air, and a couple balls went pretty deep. It wasn't inevitable, but I know I wasn't expecting much more out of him.

[CubColtPacer]

I'll blame him for not pinch hitting for Izturis for sure, but I'm fine with Marshall staying in the game(he was dealing and was under 100 pitches), and Jones pinch hitting. Jacque took a good approach in the AB and hit the ball hard.

 

But wasn't he at about 95 and wasn't that about the limit during his rehab? 4 of the previous 6 outs were in the air, and a couple balls went pretty deep. It wasn't inevitable, but I know I wasn't expecting much more out of him.

 

He had thrown 92 pitches in his previous start, but that was a strong 8 innings of a blowout game. The start before that, he threw 97 pitches. By my count, he was at 87 pitches through 6 and had retired 10 Padres in a row. I don't see any reason why he couldn't be trusted to go another inning.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'll blame him for not pinch hitting for Izturis for sure, but I'm fine with Marshall staying in the game(he was dealing and was under 100 pitches), and Jones pinch hitting. Jacque took a good approach in the AB and hit the ball hard.

 

But wasn't he at about 95 and wasn't that about the limit during his rehab? 4 of the previous 6 outs were in the air, and a couple balls went pretty deep. It wasn't inevitable, but I know I wasn't expecting much more out of him.

 

He had thrown 92 pitches in his previous start, but that was a strong 8 innings of a blowout game. The start before that, he threw 97 pitches. By my count, he was at 87 pitches through 6 and had retired 10 Padres in a row. I don't see any reason why he couldn't be trusted to go another inning.

 

My bad, I was subtracting the pitches leading up to the HR away from his 100+ total, forgetting that he stayed in the game after that.

 

I wasn't keeping track during the game, but I thought it was time to pull him.

 

Regardless, I'm still pissed Izturis swung on 3-1. A K and Marshall is out of the game. A walk and the Cubs are up 2-0. I really wish somebody hit for him there. If anything you need a deep fly there, and Izturis is not good at those.

[CubColtPacer]

I'll blame him for not pinch hitting for Izturis for sure, but I'm fine with Marshall staying in the game(he was dealing and was under 100 pitches), and Jones pinch hitting. Jacque took a good approach in the AB and hit the ball hard.

 

But wasn't he at about 95 and wasn't that about the limit during his rehab? 4 of the previous 6 outs were in the air, and a couple balls went pretty deep. It wasn't inevitable, but I know I wasn't expecting much more out of him.

 

He had thrown 92 pitches in his previous start, but that was a strong 8 innings of a blowout game. The start before that, he threw 97 pitches. By my count, he was at 87 pitches through 6 and had retired 10 Padres in a row. I don't see any reason why he couldn't be trusted to go another inning.

 

My bad, I was subtracting the pitches leading up to the HR away from his 100+ total, forgetting that he stayed in the game after that.

 

I wasn't keeping track during the game, but I thought it was time to pull him.

 

Regardless, I'm still pissed Izturis swung on 3-1. A K and Marshall is out of the game. A walk and the Cubs are up 2-0. I really wish somebody hit for him there. If anything you need a deep fly there, and Izturis is not good at those.

 

Yeah, that's where the Cubs need an extra right-handed bat against left-handers. Floyd and Jones have been huge ground ball hitters this year, and they are also prime strikeout candidates against a LHP. Blanco is not really a great candidate for that job. Theriot was being saved for Marshall's spot. Ward might have been the best option, but he's not good against LHP either and so wastes your best pinch hitter for what is at best a marginal improvement. I would have wanted Izturis to take on 3-1 as well though with the bases loaded-Wells is going to have to throw him a similar pitch on 3-2 anyway because he can't afford to walk him.

[gflore34]

I'll blame him for not pinch hitting for Izturis for sure, but I'm fine with Marshall staying in the game(he was dealing and was under 100 pitches), and Jones pinch hitting. Jacque took a good approach in the AB and hit the ball hard.

 

But wasn't he at about 95 and wasn't that about the limit during his rehab? 4 of the previous 6 outs were in the air, and a couple balls went pretty deep. It wasn't inevitable, but I know I wasn't expecting much more out of him.

 

He had thrown 92 pitches in his previous start, but that was a strong 8 innings of a blowout game. The start before that, he threw 97 pitches. By my count, he was at 87 pitches through 6 and had retired 10 Padres in a row. I don't see any reason why he couldn't be trusted to go another inning.

 

My bad, I was subtracting the pitches leading up to the HR away from his 100+ total, forgetting that he stayed in the game after that.

 

I wasn't keeping track during the game, but I thought it was time to pull him.

 

Regardless, I'm still pissed Izturis swung on 3-1. A K and Marshall is out of the game. A walk and the Cubs are up 2-0. I really wish somebody hit for him there. If anything you need a deep fly there, and Izturis is not good at those.

 

I agree, Izturis should have been taking, in fact, if Wells was missing by as much as I've read (didn't see the game). He should have never swung the bat, chances are Wells would have thrown a ball before throwing two strikes. Even if he K's, a pinch hitter was on deck...

[jersey cubs fan]

I agree, Izturis should have been taking, in fact, if Wells was missing by as much as I've read (didn't see the game). He should have never swung the bat, chances are Wells would have thrown a ball before throwing two strikes. Even if he K's, a pinch hitter was on deck...

 

That inning was the proverbial "pitcher fighting himself" inning. Wells would throw a first pitch curve to the perfect spot on the outside corner. Or he'd let one fly that ends up looking like a pitch out. He wasn't just nibbling when he walked two guys, he was missing by a wide margin, which is pretty much the only way you can walk the always jumpy Michael Barrett late in a close game. Very high and outside, very low and inside. He was all over the place. I actually got excited thinking there was a good chance he'd throw such a bad pitch that even Izturis couldn't try and swing. To be fair, the DP pitch was probably a strike, but I still think you have to make him throw 2 in that situation.

[Derwood]

if lou had pinch hit Theriot for Izturis, wouldn't the Padres have pulled Wells for Linebrink?