Prior visits Yocum and Andrews; THT on Prior's Mechanics

[Magnetic Curses]

We're going to go through the Old Timer McGee threw 400 innings a season argument again, I guess?

 

Players in previous eras had much less talented hitters, and required less effort to make it through the non-dangerous portions of the lineup. They also in some instances had a higher mound, played a talent pool that didn't have blacks and/or foreign players. It's a poor, poor comparison.

 

but warren spahn used to work on a farm in the offseason! why can't more players be like that?

[Soul]

Read that article. There's a misperception that the pitchers of yore somehow used to be able to pitch way more than today without problems. It's not necessarily true, and I think the BP article does a good job of explaining possible reasons why.

[Tracer Bullet]

Prior was not cut out to be a reliable major league pitcher, and we have 4 years of history to prove it. 07, IMO, was his last hurrah with the Cubs, and you can stick a fork in him.

 

That's quite a stretch.

 

Am I the only one who sees a pattern here? Tell me why a young pitcher, can't make it out of ST for four straight seasons ready to pitch in a big league game? Every year, he has had 5 months to rest, rehab, strengthen whatever, and he still can't get ready. How do the other guys do it? Please don't tell me he was overused by Dusty, that is the lamest excuse I have ever heard, and was 4 years ago. There are many pitchers, that have pitched 200+ innings year after year, and he has only done it once.

 

This guy is missing something, and it isn't talent, but talent doesn't matter if you can't take the ball.

 

He was overused by Dusty. Really overused.

 

Then your saying one year of 211 innings fried this guy? If that is the case, he was not meant to be a starting pitcher in the bigs.

 

It wasn't that long ago, starting pitchers would pitch every 4th day, compile 300+ innings per year, and complete 20+ games per year. Today, if you throw 200+, and have 4-5 complete games, you are abused.

 

As several others have said, it's not just total innings (though you're leaving out playoffs). It's more about pitches per game - and there were a lot of them for Prior in '03. He was also quite young at the time and this was what, his second full year in the majors?

 

And in terms of changes in the game, it's been a long time since guys threw every 4th day, 300+ IP and 20+ CG. That's just insane. TT addressed that one pretty well, so I won't add more to it.

[jersey cubs fan]

This reminds me of a post made by a great American philosopher who went by the name of goony's evil twin, where he broke down, in great detail, just how much Baker abused Prior in his first 2 years of professional baseball. If I could find it I'd love to quote it here, but I'm not sure I'm worthy of attaching my name to that genius's work.

[neely crenshaw]

face it..he was probably on the juice. it's not wear that broke him, it's that he is clean. ncaa baseball does not test. mlb did not test. please tell me how a forearm contact injury and a calf injury drops your mph over 10 points?

if it was wear and tear it would have gradually gone down not dropped instantly.

look at wood. he has faced worse abuse. he has had arm injuries and his mph's have not dropped like prior's. i know everybodies different but we need to look at this is very possibly the answer.

[hitamprun]

 

Then your saying one year of 211 innings fried this guy? If that is the case, he was not meant to be a starting pitcher in the bigs.

 

It wasn't that long ago, starting pitchers would pitch every 4th day, compile 300+ innings per year, and complete 20+ games per year. Today, if you throw 200+, and have 4-5 complete games, you are abused.

 

It's not the amount of innings, but the amount of pitches.

 

In 2003, Prior ranked third in Pitcher Abuse Points. Want to know who was first? That's right, Kerry Wood!

 

And that was through September. It doesn't include Prior's post season starts that further put strain on his arm.

 

You can read about pitcher abuse points here.

 

So, it's much more than innings pitched. It's the way those innings were accumulated and the amount of pitches in those innings.

 

Ok, let's go down that path. He has basically had one year when he pitched several games of 100+ pitches. Do you recall him going into the offseason in 03 with any significant injury? He pitched in October with no problem, and then had 5 months to rest. There was not a single event in which he blew out his arm, nor has any dr or diagnostic exam found anything structurally wrong, so where is the damage? If he was damaged by 03, why haven't they found anything of any significance over the last few years?

 

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

[3Dog]

Can Mark Prior sue Dusty Baker?

[Soul]

face it..he was probably on the juice. it's not wear that broke him, it's that he is clean. ncaa baseball does not test. mlb did not test. please tell me how a forearm contact injury and a calf injury drops your mph over 10 points?

if it was wear and tear it would have gradually gone down not dropped instantly.

look at wood. he has faced worse abuse. he has had arm injuries and his mph's have not dropped like prior's. i know everybodies different but we need to look at this is very possibly the answer.

 

Unreal.

[USSoccer]

 

Then your saying one year of 211 innings fried this guy? If that is the case, he was not meant to be a starting pitcher in the bigs.

 

It wasn't that long ago, starting pitchers would pitch every 4th day, compile 300+ innings per year, and complete 20+ games per year. Today, if you throw 200+, and have 4-5 complete games, you are abused.

 

It's not the amount of innings, but the amount of pitches.

 

In 2003, Prior ranked third in Pitcher Abuse Points. Want to know who was first? That's right, Kerry Wood!

 

And that was through September. It doesn't include Prior's post season starts that further put strain on his arm.

 

You can read about pitcher abuse points here.

 

So, it's much more than innings pitched. It's the way those innings were accumulated and the amount of pitches in those innings.

 

Ok, let's go down that path. He has basically had one year when he pitched several games of 100+ pitches. Do you recall him going into the offseason in 03 with any significant injury? He pitched in October with no problem, and then had 5 months to rest. There was not a single event in which he blew out his arm, nor has any dr or diagnostic exam found anything structurally wrong, so where is the damage? If he was damaged by 03, why haven't they found anything of any significance over the last few years?

 

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

 

Guess who threw the second most innings in professional baseball in 2003, despite it being his first full major league season?

 

Guess who threw the most innings in professional baseball in 2003, including 147 in a game in May?

 

Seriously, your argument is just wrong on so many levels. If you want to ignore mountains of evidence that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood were broken beyond repair in 2003, knock yourself out.

[UK1679666180]

Prior was fatigued and injured when he pitched in the playoffs of '03, bad things can happen and they did. It probably got progressively worse by pitching when it wasn't healed properly and the line drive from Hawpe.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Then your saying one year of 211 innings fried this guy? If that is the case, he was not meant to be a starting pitcher in the bigs.

 

It wasn't that long ago, starting pitchers would pitch every 4th day, compile 300+ innings per year, and complete 20+ games per year. Today, if you throw 200+, and have 4-5 complete games, you are abused.

 

It's not the amount of innings, but the amount of pitches.

 

In 2003, Prior ranked third in Pitcher Abuse Points. Want to know who was first? That's right, Kerry Wood!

 

And that was through September. It doesn't include Prior's post season starts that further put strain on his arm.

 

You can read about pitcher abuse points here.

 

So, it's much more than innings pitched. It's the way those innings were accumulated and the amount of pitches in those innings.

 

Ok, let's go down that path. He has basically had one year when he pitched several games of 100+ pitches. Do you recall him going into the offseason in 03 with any significant injury? He pitched in October with no problem, and then had 5 months to rest. There was not a single event in which he blew out his arm, nor has any dr or diagnostic exam found anything structurally wrong, so where is the damage? If he was damaged by 03, why haven't they found anything of any significance over the last few years?

 

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

 

He was also third in PAP in 2005 . I think it's highly probable that the abuse placed on Prior is the reason for his injuries.

 

While there are pitchers who can take that level of abuse, it is a rare breed. Furthermore, the younger the pitcher when he experiences the high levels of abuse, the greater the chance for significant injury.

 

And the injuries that result from abuse aren't always immediate. The stress and strain placed on the pitchers body early on often have a cumulative effect and damage the pitcher down the road.

[jersey cubs fan]

Ok, let's go down that path. He has basically had one year when he pitched several games of 100+ pitches. Do you recall him going into the offseason in 03 with any significant injury? He pitched in October with no problem, and then had 5 months to rest.

 

He had several extremely high pitch count games in 2002 and 2003. And he did go into 2003 with a calf issue. That was revealed the next spring. He also injured his shoulder in 2003 and went on to pitch despite the problem. That 5 months of rest is meaningless.

 

 

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box.

 

There have been very few that did what Prior did at the age he did it.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

This reminds me of a post made by a great American philosopher who went by the name of goony's evil twin, where he broke down, in great detail, just how much Baker abused Prior in his first 2 years of professional baseball. If I could find it I'd love to quote it here, but I'm not sure I'm worthy of attaching my name to that genius's work.

 

Shameless. Nice but shameless.

[CubColtPacer]

I'm not sure we'll ever know the cause of Prior's injuries for sure. There are simply too many variables. The overuse is a very reasonable explanation for at least part of his injuries. He also has had a couple injuries that he came back very fast from in 03 and 05-if they didn't find everything that was wrong (especially in 05) it is certainly possible that it was just a matter of time after the injury before his arm gave out. There also is the minor injury/changed mechanics argument. Do I think Prior is injured because of the overuse? No, not necessarily directly. Do I believe that the overuse contributed to the extent of his injuries and his inability to heal as well when he was otherwise injured? Yes. It's just hard to know for sure how much all the factors came into the equation.

[Banedon]

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

 

Please provide an example of these "many pitchers" that had similar loads. Remember, we aren't talking IP, we're talking pitches.

[YearofDaCubs]

This was aways great..

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AvhGgcuUyp458wg1ydgGkSOFCLcF?gid=231003116

 

133 pitches CG against the Braves.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AjYI2Z90xb_TuImNqgsJ53GFCLcF?gid=230927216

 

133 against the Pirates.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AkK8bc66UXsYddvcYYSl8P6FCLcF?gid=230921123

 

131 against the Pirates.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AqtUGYVfbfGshFTHCcs.q7.FCLcF?gid=230916116

 

124 against the Mets.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AhsFpXu8R6IdL.mcCscIaKSFCLcF?gid=230906108

 

129 against the Brewers.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AgWO1O_Pwxp9MxFD4uu17IOFCLcF?gid=230901116

 

130 against the Cardinals.

 

I don't feel like going any further but damn that is a lot of pitches per outing. There's actually over 110 pitches. I remember people chattering about pitch counts because Baker was using these guys so much. And just like ABuck said, sure enough they both go down and now will never be the same again.

[Mephistopheles]

you can quickly see with BR

 

CarGm TmG Date       Opp DR GmReslt Pitcher Result  IP   H  R ER BB SO HR   ERA  BF Pit Str GmSc IR IS Situat. In/Out Inn Rnr O Scr  SB CS Pk AB 2B 3B IW HB SH SF RE DP
+-----+---+---------+----+--+-------+--------------+----+--+--+--+--+--+--+------+--+---+---+----+--+--+--------------+--------------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
   20   3 Apr  3    @NYM  - W  6-3  GS-6  ,W  1-0   6    4  1  1  2  7  0   1.50 24 105  70   65        1b start a 2   6b 3 out a 4   0  0  0 22  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0 
   21   8 Apr  9     MON  5 W  3-0  SHO9  ,W  2-0   9    4  0  0  0 12  0   0.60 31 112  88   91        1t start tie   9t 3 out a 3   0  0  0 31  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0 
   22  13 Apr 14     CIN  4 L  3-11 GS-6  ,L  2-1   6    5  5  3  2  6  0   1.71 25  95  65   50        1t start tie   6t 3 out d 4   0  1  1 21  3  0  0  0  2  0  1  0 
   23  18 Apr 19    @PIT  4 W  6-1  GS-9  ,W  3-1   9    6  1  1  2  6  0   1.50 33 112  80   75        1b start tie   9b 3 out tie   0  0  1 31  2  0  0  0  0  0  0  2 
   24  23 Apr 25    @COL  5 W 11-7  GS-8  ,W  4-1   7    5  2  2  1  7  0   1.70 28 116  79   65        1b start tie   8b 1-- 0 a 7   1  0  0 26  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0 
   25  28 May  1    @SFG  5 W  5-1  GS-6            6    6  1  1  3  7  0   1.67 27  97  63   60        1b start tie   6b 3 out tie   0  1  0 22  1  1  1  1  0  1  1  0 
   26  33 May  6     MIL  4 L  6-9  GS-6            6    5  3  1  2  7  0   1.65 28 105  65   59        1t start tie   7t 1-- 0 a 2   0  0  0 24  0  1  0  1  0  1  2  0 
   27  37 May 12    @MIL  5 W 11-5  GS-6  ,W  5-1   6    7  4  4  4 11  2   2.13 29 124  83   49        1b start a 1   6b 3 out a 6   1  0  0 25  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0 
   28  42 May 17    @STL  4 W  2-1  GS-8            7.1  6  1  1  2  6  1   2.02 30 104  66   66        1b start tie   8b --- 1 tie   0  1  0 26  0  0  0  0  2  0  1  0 
   29  47 May 23    @HOU  5 L  5-7  GS-7  ,L  5-2   6.2  7  7  6  3  6  1   2.61 31 111  68   37        1b start a 2   7b 1-- 2 d 3   0  0  1 28  1  0  0  0  0  0  2  1 
   30  52 May 28     PIT  4 W  5-4  GS-8  ,W  6-2   7.2  8  4  4  0  8  0   2.82 31 123  84   55        1t start tie   8t -2- 2 a 1   0  0  1 31  4  0  0  0  0  0  0  0 
   31  56 Jun  3     TBD  5 W  3-2  GS-8            8    8  2  2  1  5  0   2.76 32 124  77   62        1t start tie   8t 3 out d 1   1  1  1 30  1  0  0  1  0  0  0  1 
   32  61 Jun  8     NYY  4 W  8-7  GS-6  ,W  7-2   6    7  3  3  1 10  2   2.88 27 107  71   55        1t start tie   6t 3 out a 3   0  0  0 24  3  0  0  2  0  0  0  1 
   33  66 Jun 14    @TOR  5 W  4-2  GS-6  ,W  8-2   5.2  7  2  0  2  8  1   2.71 27 119  74   57        1b start a 3   6b --3 2 a 2   0  0  2 25  0  1  0  0  0  0  1  0 
   34  71 Jun 19    @CIN  4 L  1-3  GS-6  ,L  8-3   6    7  2  1  1  5  0   2.64 25 107  70   56        1b start tie   6b 3 out d 1   0  1  0 23  2  0  0  0  1  0  1  1 
   35  77 Jun 26     MIL  6 L  3-5  GS-8            8    4  2  2  0 16  1   2.61 27 127  86   82        1t start tie   8t 3 out a 1   0  1  1 27  1  0  0  0  0  0  0  0 
   36  82 Jul  1    @PHI  4 L  3-4  GS-7            6.2  9  3  1  2  7  0   2.54 31 115  67   53        1b start tie   7b 12- 2 tie   0  0  0 29  2  0  1  0  0  0  1  1 
   37  87 Jul  6     STL  4 L  1-4  GS-7  ,L  8-4   7    5  4  4  3 11  1   2.69 29 114  76   59        1t start tie   7t 3 out d 4   0  0  0 26  1  0  1  0  0  0  0  0 
   38  92 Jul 11     ATL  4 L  5-9  GS-5  ,L  8-5   4.2  6  6  6  3  5  2   3.01 23  95  56   30        1t start tie   5t 1-- 2 d 5   0  0  0 19  2  0  0  1  0  0  0  1 
   39 111 Aug  5    @SDP 24 W  3-0  GS-6  ,W  9-5   6    2  0  0  1  6  0   2.87 20  79  52   73        1b start tie   6b 3 out a 1   0  1  0 19  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1 
+-----+---+---------+----+--+-------+--------------+----+--+--+--+--+--+--+------+--+---+---+----+--+--+--------------+--------------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
CarGm TmG Date       Opp DR GmReslt Pitcher Result  IP   H  R ER BB SO HR   ERA  BF Pit Str GmSc IR IS Situat. In/Out Inn Rnr O Scr  SB CS Pk AB 2B 3B IW HB SH SF RE DP
+-----+---+---------+----+--+-------+--------------+----+--+--+--+--+--+--+------+--+---+---+----+--+--+--------------+--------------+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
   40 116 Aug 10    @LAD  4 W  3-1  CG 9  ,W 10-5   9    5  1  1  1  9  0   2.76 31 116  84   81        1b start a 2   9b 3 out a 2   1  1  0 29  1  0  0  0  1  0  0  1 
   41 121 Aug 15     LAD  4 W  2-1  CG 9  ,W 11-5   9    7  1  1  0  5  0   2.65 34 118  82   74        1t start tie   9t 3 out a 1   0  0  0 33  1  1  0  1  0  0  0  1 
   42 125 Aug 20    @HOU  4 W  6-0  GS-7  ,W 12-5   7    4  0  0  1  9  0   2.54 26 100  71   77        1b start tie   7b 3 out a 6   0  0  0 24  1  0  0  0  1  0  0  0 
   43 130 Aug 26    @STL  5 W  7-4  GS-8  ,W 13-5   8    3  1  1  1  6  1   2.47 28 116  76   77        1b start tie   8b 3 out a 6   1  0  0 27  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0 
   44 136 Sep  1     STL  5 W  7-0  GS-8  ,W 14-5   8    5  0  0  3  8  0   2.36 31 131  88   77        1t start tie   8t 3 out a 7   0  0  0 27  1  0  0  0  1  0  0  1 
   45 142 Sep  6    @MIL  4 W  8-4  GS-7  ,W 15-5   7   10  3  3  1  7  1   2.41 30 129  86   51        1b start a 2   7b 3 out a 2   0  0  0 29  2  0  0  0  0  0  0  1 
   46 146 Sep 11    @MON  4 L  2-3  GS-6  ,L 15-6   5.2 10  3  3  3  8  0   2.48 31 109  74   42        1b start tie   6b 12- 2 d 3   1  0  1 27  3  1  1  0  1  0  1  0 
   47 151 Sep 16     NYM  4 W  3-2  GS-9  ,W 16-6   8.2  8  2  2  1 13  1   2.47 35 124  82   72        1t start tie   9t -2- 2 a 1   0  0  0 33  3  0  0  1  0  0  0  1 
   48 156 Sep 21    @PIT  4 W  4-1  GS-8  ,W 17-6   7.2  6  1  1  2 14  0   2.42 30 131  91   75        1b start a 2   8b 123 2 a 3   0  1  0 28  2  1  0  0  0  0  0  0 
   49 160 Sep 27(1)  PIT  5 W  4-2  GS-7  ,W 18-6   6.2  7  2  2  2 10  1   2.43 29 133  92   60        1t start tie   7t 1-- 2 a 2   1  0  0 27  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0 

[YearofDaCubs]

So he had only 4games which he didn't go over the 100 pitch mark, wow.

[Mephistopheles]

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

 

Please provide an example of these "many pitchers" that had similar loads. Remember, we aren't talking IP, we're talking pitches.

 

Every pitcher in the 1960s?

[soapy]

This is one of the saddest threads ever. :(

 

People can deny that Prior and Wood were injured by Baker's abuse all they want (and Wood even before Baker got there), but I've yet to see anything close to any other reasonable explination other than saying "they're soft".

 

In my mind, the evidence is pretty overwhelming. I'm sorry, but I just think those who deny it just aren't looking close enough.

[Derwood]

There have been many pitchers who have had similar loads that Prior and Wood (for only one season) and did not fold up like a cardboard box. Wood, is a different story, his mechanics have caused big time issues, and he has caused damage over time. Prior, is another deal, and I don't buy 03 ruined him, and if it somehow did, he doesn't have the physical capability to hold up as a starter.

 

Please provide an example of these "many pitchers" that had similar loads. Remember, we aren't talking IP, we're talking pitches.

 

Every pitcher in the 1960s?

 

if you think every pitcher in the 1960's threw as hard with as much torque on their arms as Wood and Prior you are truly fooling yourself

[soapy]

That September stretch of pitch counts is mind-numbing.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

That September stretch of pitch counts is mind-numbing.

 

QFT

[hitamprun]

Seriously, your argument is just wrong on so many levels. If you want to ignore mountains of evidence that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood were broken beyond repair in 2003, knock yourself out.

 

 

Ok, let's assume your are correct. Prior was signficantly damaged by the 2003 season. I think we would agree the damage was significant, because he has failed to make it out of 4 straight spring trainings and has had several trips to the DL.

 

Now, I know a little about sportsmedicine, because I have been in that field for 15 years, and I know what diagnostic tests and orthopaedic dr's are capable of finding. If Prior had something going on, that was significant enouph to cause his past 4 years of history, it is incredibly unlikely, he would have had a clean structural bill of health from numerous MRI's and many different physicians, time and time again.

 

That's why I don't believe in the lingering effect of 03 abuse theory. Anything causing him so much trouble, is not going undectable for this long.

[Outshined_One]

So he had only 4games which he didn't go over the 100 pitch mark, wow.

 

One of those games was cut short by the midget second baseman shoulder injury and the other was a rehab start, to boot.

 

Ugh, this thread is making me depressed and angry.