Fox Sports: Ramirez SIGNS WITH CUBS!

[BigbadB]

Aramis very quietly put up an awesome season. If he had a couple of "decent" OBP guys leading off, nevermind a couple of "excellent" OBP guys, Aramis would have had some staggering RBI numbers this year.

 

I guess we can thank Dusty for batting Pierre and Neifi 1/2 most of the year to hide just how good Aramis really was this year.

 

Can we even imagine how good Aramis' numbers might have looked with a couple of really good OBP guys batting 1/2 AND a healthy Derrek Lee hitting in front of him?

 

Actually, I'm not worried if we lose Aramis. We can always bring back Vance Law, Luis Salazar, Gary Scott, Kevin Orie, Keith Moreland, etc....

[Soul]

Surely quite a few other teams can imagine what ARam's numbers on the worst team in the NL would translate to when plugged into their lineups.

 

He's going to draw some serious offers. I'm sensing Jim Hendry with egg on his face here. ARam may love playing in Chicago, but when that kind of money starts flying I'm not convinced Hendry is going to be willing to man up with the $$$$ to keep this kid.

 

This could be the great Maddux redux. Happening right here, right now, before our very eyes.

 

I'm aware I'm being highly critical and negative right now, but what has Hendry done to justify feeling any differently? He's drained this team and the minor leagues in the process. Why would anyone, much less Lou Piniella, think he's going to be able to build this team back up? The mountain of evidence suggests he will fail to bring in the players necessary.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Soul

[Outshined_One]

I'm hoping that people are being chicken littles in this thread with all my heart and soul. I really want to believe that Hendry will be able to retain Aramis Ramirez.

 

However, if this spirals out of control and Rammy jumps ship, all hell will break loose. I'm not looking forward to that.

[USSoccer]

 

This could be the great Maddux redux. Happening right here, right now, before our very eyes.

 

I agree completely.

 

The only difference is that 90% of the Chicago media are either indifferent or can't wait for Hendry to let him walk, which is absolutely baffling. Ramirez doesn't have many advocates in the media, despite being nothing but productive in his 3.5 seasons here.

 

Boers and Bernstein have the best view on it I've heard from a media outlet. Either Hendry should have dealt him in July, or should give him market value and make sure he stays put.

[BigbadB]

I'm hoping that people are being chicken littles in this thread with all my heart and soul. I really want to believe that Hendry will be able to retain Aramis Ramirez.

 

However, if this spirals out of control and Rammy jumps ship, all hell will break loose. I'm not looking forward to that.

 

Nah. We're not worried. If Aramis is too expensive, Hendry will have just that much more money to throw at Juan Pierre. :roll:

[daske17]

Since Ramirez is the best FA bat available, why wouldn't you overpay to keep him, instead of overpaying for the overrated Carlos Lee?

 

You have 3 "premier" offensive FA's: Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. If you were going to overpay one of them, Ramirez would be the one to do it with. He's far and away superior to Lee, and he's better than Soriano as well.

 

My hope is that Hendry overpays for Ramirez, but a lot factors into whether he wants to return or not. Should Ramirez go elsewhere, Hendry would have to overpay for anyone to fill that gap. Not only because he would have to in this market, but because any suitors would clearly see that the Cubs would be in desperate need for offense.

[Neuby]

Hendry didn't trade Ramirez when he could have gotten a boatload for him, now it's time to bite the bullet and give the man his money.

 

Do we know that for a fact? Ramirez had no trade protection according to today's papers - maybe he vetoed a trade.

 

I like Aramis. But, you can put me in the group that believes the Cubs will be fine even if he signs with somebody else.

 

Based on what? He's the best FA bat out there. He walks, you need 2 bats to make up for it and improve. I've heard Gary Sheffield's name bandied about. You'd rather have a broken down Sheffield than Ramirez? Carlos Lee? He's wildly overrated, and can only play LF, which is a position that id ably filled by a cheap, good young player. Soriano? I'd like him in CF or 2B, but he's going to cost more than Ramirez, is older, and not as good. Trade for ARod? We don't have the parts to compete with Anaheim and the White Sox, if it comes to that.

 

Ramirez is the best offensive player on the team. You just don't find guys to replace him laying around. He leaves, and we will not compete in 2007.

Players that could interest the Yankees

 

White Sox- Uribe/Garcia/Buerhle/Crede

Angels- Prospects/bullpen help/

Cubs- Jones/Izzy/Dempster/Howry/Eyre/Pie/Hill/

 

I left Vazquez's name off the list as he was not well thought of in New York his first stint there. The Cubs and White Sox could match up well with New Yorkin terms of players to create a package to net ARod .Too bad A-Rod to the White Sox has no chance of happening. ARod and Ozzie hate each other. Scott Boras does not work well with Reinsdorf and Williams. Why wouldn't AROD waive his no trade clause to play for Uncle Lou? He gets to play in a major market and a chance to remake his image.

[BigbadB]

Why would the Yankees be interested in Jacque Jones? Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui are 3 outfielders they already have that are better than Jones. If they can't move Sheffield, that makes 4.

[USSoccer]

Players that could interest the Yankees

 

White Sox- Uribe/Garcia/Buerhle/Crede

Angels- Prospects/bullpen help/

Cubs- Jones/Izzy/Dempster/Howry/Eyre/Pie/Hill/

 

I left Vazquez's name off the list as he was not well thought of in New York his first stint there. The Cubs and White Sox could match up well with New Yorkin terms of players to create a package to net ARod .Too bad A-Rod to the White Sox has no chance of happening. ARod and Ozzie hate each other. Scott Boras does not work well with Reinsdorf and Williams. Why wouldn't AROD waive his no trade clause to play for Uncle Lou? He gets to play in a major market and a chance to remake his image.

 

Brian Cashman isn't stupid. He's not going to take our garbage for a top 5 player making a reasonable amount of money. Even Pie/Hill/Eyre wouldn't get it done, and that's the best combo possible using those players.

 

And even if they accept a deal like that, and you lose Ramirez, the upgrade you get isn't so signifigant as to justify the loss you your 3 best trading chips. You've made a marginal upgrade at a steep player cost, and you still have holes to fill, only now you have fewer assets with which to improve.

Edited October 31, 2006 by USSoccer

[CubFanPhilly]

If Ramirez walks, the Lou Piniella signing is a disaster.

 

Signing Lou (and the related hoopla) means Hendry will be obligated to overpay for marginal talent in the hope of scraping together a contender in '07, instead of doing what's best for the team (playing the young guys one more year to build trade value and figure out the holes to fill for a run in 2008).

 

I have to assume that either Ramirez and his agent are playing hardball right now, or ARAM has decided he has no intention of returning to the Cubs. If it's the former, all Hendry has to do is match the best offer. If it's the latter, a big offer might not make any difference.

 

CFP

[Neuby]

Why would the Yankees be interested in Jacque Jones? Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui are 3 outfielders they already have that are better than Jones. If they can't move Sheffield, that makes 4.

 

Reports have had the Yankee's splitting time with Giambi and Matsui at

1B/DH when Sheffield is dealt.

[RynoRules]

In a strange way I think his leaving might be better for the team in the long run (i.e., Hendry would be forced to agreessively pursue several replacement parts, like Minaya in NY), but I think its more prudent to make sure he is back in the fold.

[da bears]

If Ramirez walks, the Lou Piniella signing is a disaster.

 

Signing Lou (and the related hoopla) means Hendry will be obligated to overpay for marginal talent in the hope of scraping together a contender in '07, instead of doing what's best for the team (playing the young guys one more year to build trade value and figure out the holes to fill for a run in 2008).

 

I have to assume that either Ramirez and his agent are playing hardball right now, or ARAM has decided he has no intention of returning to the Cubs. If it's the former, all Hendry has to do is match the best offer. If it's the latter, a big offer might not make any difference.

 

CFP

 

Well, unfortunately for the Cubs I'm with you on this one. Losing Ramirez basically crushes any momentum the Cubs could have had going into the offseason. Hendry better get this done, or he's looking at a huge backlash from Cubs fans.

[USSoccer]

Why would the Yankees be interested in Jacque Jones? Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui are 3 outfielders they already have that are better than Jones. If they can't move Sheffield, that makes 4.

 

Reports have had the Yankee's splitting time with Giambi and Matsui at

1B/DH when Sheffield is dealt.

 

So you stil have Cabrera, Damon, and Abreu in the OF.

[USSoccer]

If Ramirez walks, the Lou Piniella signing is a disaster.

 

Signing Lou (and the related hoopla) means Hendry will be obligated to overpay for marginal talent in the hope of scraping together a contender in '07, instead of doing what's best for the team (playing the young guys one more year to build trade value and figure out the holes to fill for a run in 2008).

 

I have to assume that either Ramirez and his agent are playing hardball right now, or ARAM has decided he has no intention of returning to the Cubs. If it's the former, all Hendry has to do is match the best offer. If it's the latter, a big offer might not make any difference.

 

CFP

 

Well, unfortunately for the Cubs I'm with you on this one. Losing Ramirez basically crushes any momentum the Cubs could have had going into the offseason. Hendry better get this done, or he's looking at a huge backlash from Cubs fans.

 

Will he? It seems like the media outlets have really been downplaying ARam's signifigance to the team.

[garsky]

If ARam does indeed leave--and I think he will--do we get compensation?

 

I'm not going to panic if (when?) he leaves. But it'll require a lot more faith in Hendry than I've had to this point to be optimistic about 2007.

 

There are a few decent options to replace ARam. The Cubs could sign Japanese gold glover Akinori Iwamura. Or, better yet, trade for Morgan Ensberg, who would give you power, OBP, and an outstanding glove. Or, if they could entice Boston to pay at least half his salary, Mike Lowell could be had pretty cheaply in a trade.

 

There are also a couple of second-tier free agent 3Bs out there we can grab as a stopgap--guys like the aforementioned Mark DeRosa, whose 296/357/456 line isn't terrible. Or how about someone like Wes Helms? He hit 329/390/575 in part-time action for Florida last year. Jeff Cirillo hit 319/369/414 for the Brewers, and he can pick it pretty well at the hot corner.

 

And the money we save can go right into 2 decent pitchers. Remember, the Cubs' biggest problem last year wasn't necessarily hitting--they finished 5th in the NL in BA (1 point behind the World Champs). But they finished 3rd from last in team ERA last year, giving up 65 more walks than the NEXT worst team. Substitute league-average OBP guys at the 1 and 2 spots in the order for Pierre and whoever Dusty happened to trot out there, and they'll score a lot more runs. And with, at worst, a middle-of-the-pack finish in team ERA, you're looking at the very LEAST a .500 finish.

 

Take the $15 million ARam's going to get, add $2 mill and you have Soriano. Sign Schmidt for 4/48, and you have enough left for another good FA starter. Or to trade for a high-priced one.

 

Like I said, it'll take a lot of confidence in Hendry, but I could envision a lineup like:

 

2B Theriot

LF Murton

CF Soriano

1B Lee

3B Ensberg

C Barrett

RF Jones

SS Izturis

P

 

with a rotation of

Zambrano

Schmidt

Hill

Lilly, Meche, Padilla, Miguel Batista

Prior/Marshall etc.

 

That's good enough to win the NL Central.

[Neuby]

Players that could interest the Yankees

 

White Sox- Uribe/Garcia/Buerhle/Crede

Angels- Prospects/bullpen help/

Cubs- Jones/Izzy/Dempster/Howry/Eyre/Pie/Hill/

 

I left Vazquez's name off the list as he was not well thought of in New York his first stint there. The Cubs and White Sox could match up well with New Yorkin terms of players to create a package to net ARod .Too bad A-Rod to the White Sox has no chance of happening. ARod and Ozzie hate each other. Scott Boras does not work well with Reinsdorf and Williams. Why wouldn't AROD waive his no trade clause to play for Uncle Lou? He gets to play in a major market and a chance to remake his image.

 

Brian Cashman isn't stupid. He's not going to take our garbage for a top 5 player making a reasonable amount of money. Even Pie/Hill/Eyre wouldn't get it done, and that's the best combo possible using those players.

 

And even if they accept a deal like that, and you lose Ramirez, the upgrade you get isn't so signifigant as to justify the loss you your 3 best trading chips. You've made a marginal upgrade at a steep player cost, and you still have holes to fill, only now you have fewer assets with which to improve.

 

Ramirez will return for a huge paycheck , I think that if Arod gets dealt that it will be to the Cubs.

I was just pointing out that word in New York is there is no way that arod returns there and everything your hearing now is a smokescreen similar to when his trade to Boston fell through and it looked like he was going to remain a Texan. Cashman won't be able to get top dollar for Arod because of his NTC and bridges have been burned in the clubhouse.

[BigbadB]

2B Theriot

LF Murton

CF Soriano

1B Lee

3B Ensberg

C Barrett

RF Jones

SS Izturis

P

 

with a rotation of

Zambrano

Schmidt

Hill

Lilly, Meche, Padilla, Miguel Batista

Prior/Marshall etc.

 

That's good enough to win the NL Central.

 

So, the Cubs will get 3 of the top 6 or 7 free agents available and trade with a team within their own division for a top replacement for Ramirez?

 

It's definitely wishful thinking, but 29 other teams are not going to be happy with their offseasons when the Cubs clean up. Unfortunately, my optimism that the Cubs could pull off a haul like that just isn't there.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

If the Cubs could then shock us all and bring either Tejada or A-Rod to Chicago, no one will miss Aramis Ramirez.

 

I will. Replacing Aramis with either of those two is simply treading water offensively. It will be a huge deal in the media, but we will be improving marginally if at all. It will make us older, however.

 

Hendry didn't trade Ramirez when he could have gotten a boatload for him, now it's time to bite the bullet and give the man his money.

 

The only way i would approve of letting him go is if a deal was in place to get Cabrera. Even then, we still need another bat and we likely have no prospects left.

 

Ramirez is not a high OBP guy, never has been, and he has absolutely no speed. None. Tejada and especially, A-Rod, would be DEMONSTRABLY superior players that improve the team incrementally, without even considering that both play a harder position to fill.

 

Tejada makes $12MM/year, A-Rod makes $16MM/year net (the Yankees payment). Ramirez likely wants $13MM to $14MM/year? No way.

[soapy]

I'm really shocked at the number of people that think the Cubs will be fine or okay if Ramirez walks. I just don't see how that's possible. They would need add at least two bats in that scenario, plus pitching. That's going to cost money and/or players. Picking up someone like ARod, Tejada, etc. (hell, even Ensberg) is going to require giving up talent in return. That will limit the Cubs options to make necessary additions in other areas besides what they lose in Ramirez. He's been the most productive offensive player for the team over the last three years, his defense has improved to being solid, and he (supposedly) worked extra hard this past off season in a hope to avoid the leg injuries that plagued him in the past (which worked).

 

I don't believe there's any hope of making this team a contender in 2007 without Ramirez. None.

 

I'm not panicking about him opting out, yet, but they simply have to re-sign him.

[USSoccer]

If the Cubs could then shock us all and bring either Tejada or A-Rod to Chicago, no one will miss Aramis Ramirez.

 

I will. Replacing Aramis with either of those two is simply treading water offensively. It will be a huge deal in the media, but we will be improving marginally if at all. It will make us older, however.

 

Hendry didn't trade Ramirez when he could have gotten a boatload for him, now it's time to bite the bullet and give the man his money.

 

The only way i would approve of letting him go is if a deal was in place to get Cabrera. Even then, we still need another bat and we likely have no prospects left.

 

Ramirez is not a high OBP guy, never has been, and he has absolutely no speed. None. Tejada and especially, A-Rod, would be DEMONSTRABLY superior players that improve the team incrementally, without even considering that both play a harder position to fill.

 

Tejada makes $12MM/year, A-Rod makes $16MM/year net (the Yankees payment). Ramirez likely wants $13MM to $14MM/year? No way.

 

Miguel Tejada is on the downslope of his career, and I can make a very strong case that Aramis is a better player right now. ARod is better, but the odds of matching up with NY in a deal are very, very low. Add to that the player cost of ARod and the fact that you aren't *that* much better with ARod over ARam, and you get a bad 2007 team.

 

Add Tejada or ARod to a team with Lee and Aramis, and now you have something.

 

And FYI, Aramis's OBP is comparable to Tejada's. Without the high strikeout total.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

If Ramirez walks, the Lou Piniella signing is a disaster.

 

Signing Lou (and the related hoopla) means Hendry will be obligated to overpay for marginal talent in the hope of scraping together a contender in '07, instead of doing what's best for the team (playing the young guys one more year to build trade value and figure out the holes to fill for a run in 2008).

 

I have to assume that either Ramirez and his agent are playing hardball right now, or ARAM has decided he has no intention of returning to the Cubs. If it's the former, all Hendry has to do is match the best offer. If it's the latter, a big offer might not make any difference.

 

CFP

 

I think Hendry would do this whether or not Piniella was the manager. Hendry's job is on the line, he's going to feel obligated to do whatever he feels will save his job which is win this year - signing Piniella was part of that plan.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Ramirez is not a high OBP guy, never has been, and he has absolutely no speed. None. Tejada and especially, A-Rod, would be DEMONSTRABLY superior players that improve the team incrementally, without even considering that both play a harder position to fill.

 

Tejada makes $12MM/year, A-Rod makes $16MM/year net (the Yankees payment). Ramirez likely wants $13MM to $14MM/year? No way.

 

Miguel Tejada is on the downslope of his career, and I can make a very strong case that Aramis is a better player right now. ARod is better, but the odds of matching up with NY in a deal are very, very low. Add to that the player cost of ARod and the fact that you aren't *that* much better with ARod over ARam, and you get a bad 2007 team.

 

Add Tejada or ARod to a team with Lee and Aramis, and now you have something.

 

And FYI, Aramis's OBP is comparable to Tejada's. Without the high strikeout total.

 

Tejada is older, that is true. But he offers similar production, is LESS expensive in $$, and he fills a more difficult position. I'd rather have Tejada at SS and Iwamura at 3B than Ramirez at 3B and Izturis at SS, for example.

 

I'm not on a "Hate Aramis" mission, I just recognize the many holes on this team and I'm struggling with whether (1) Aramis is really part of the long-term solution, and/or (2) whether the money he'll demand is a wise investment. The guy HAS shown a tendency to persistent, nagging injuries.

 

And BTW, I have no idea what you're talking about on "high strikeout totals." Tejada the last three seasons has K'd 73, 83, and 79 times, and that's with 650 ABs/year. Ramirez is at 62,62 and 63 times, but on average roughly 100 less ABs per year, too. I'd say they're both pretty good at making contact, and Tejada is not more prone to the strikeout.

[USSoccer]

Ramirez is not a high OBP guy, never has been, and he has absolutely no speed. None. Tejada and especially, A-Rod, would be DEMONSTRABLY superior players that improve the team incrementally, without even considering that both play a harder position to fill.

 

Tejada makes $12MM/year, A-Rod makes $16MM/year net (the Yankees payment). Ramirez likely wants $13MM to $14MM/year? No way.

 

Miguel Tejada is on the downslope of his career, and I can make a very strong case that Aramis is a better player right now. ARod is better, but the odds of matching up with NY in a deal are very, very low. Add to that the player cost of ARod and the fact that you aren't *that* much better with ARod over ARam, and you get a bad 2007 team.

 

Add Tejada or ARod to a team with Lee and Aramis, and now you have something.

 

And FYI, Aramis's OBP is comparable to Tejada's. Without the high strikeout total.

 

 

I'm not on a "Hate Aramis" mission, I just recognize the many holes on this team and I'm struggling with whether (1) Aramis is really part of the long-term solution, and/or (2) whether the money he'll demand is a wise investment. The guy HAS shown a tendency to persistent, nagging injuries.

 

#1-A 28 yr old Aramis is more likely part of the long term solution than a 31 year old Tejada.

 

#2-Aramis stayed healthy all of 2006.

 

#3-Aramis' production shows no indication that a long term, expensive contract is a big risk.

[soapy]

The simple solution here is to re-sign Ramirez AND trade for Tejada. Now everyone is happy and the Cubs can concentrate on pitching.