Ryan Howard is a beast

[Andy]

Has Joe Morgan seen the Phillies play? I was just wondering if he thought Ryan Howard was any good or if he was waiting to form an opinion.

He's a good player. We haven't gotten to do many Phillies games for me to see him for myself, but his numbers alone indicate he is very good. Still, I think Pujols is much better because of all he provides for his team defensively as well as leadership ability. Neither of those guys would have cut it in the days I played, though. The game is much easier to play now.

[TruffleShuffle]

Actually the best argument for him being MVP is the projected finish of 62 HR, around 160 RBI and an OPS of 1.060. Regardless of whether the Phillies make the playoffs, those stats are ridiculous.

Howard: 591 AB, 105 R, 183 H, 21 2B, 62 HR, 158 RBI .403/.665/1.068

174 AB with RISP, 284 AB with runners on

 

projected over the same # of ABs...

 

Pujols: 591 AB, 136 R, 190 H, 50 2B, 58 HR, 155 RBI .423/.681/1.104

139 AB with RISP, 267 AB with runners on

 

Same ridiculous pace, but he's giving better production with more limited opportunities.

 

Yes, but the problem is, if they both are healthy the rest of the year, Pujols won't have the same number of ABs. While it's not his fault that he got hurt, he'll likely finish the season having played about 15 games fewer than Howard. In a close race, that can and should make a difference.

[daske17]

Has Joe Morgan seen the Phillies play? I was just wondering if he thought Ryan Howard was any good or if he was waiting to form an opinion.

He's a good player. We haven't gotten to do many Phillies games for me to see him for myself, but his numbers alone indicate he is very good. Still, I think Pujols is much better because of all he provides for his team defensively as well as leadership ability. Neither of those guys would have cut it in the days I played, though. The game is much easier to play now.

 

Please tell me he didn't say that. . . :shock:

[CuseCubFan69]

Has Joe Morgan seen the Phillies play? I was just wondering if he thought Ryan Howard was any good or if he was waiting to form an opinion.

He's a good player. We haven't gotten to do many Phillies games for me to see him for myself, but his numbers alone indicate he is very good. Still, I think Pujols is much better because of all he provides for his team defensively as well as leadership ability. Neither of those guys would have cut it in the days I played, though. The game is much easier to play now.

 

Please tell me he didn't say that. . . :shock:

 

No way even Morgan could say something that goofy....tell me it ain't so Joe!

Edited September 5, 2006 by CuseCubFan69

[Andy]

Has Joe Morgan seen the Phillies play? I was just wondering if he thought Ryan Howard was any good or if he was waiting to form an opinion.

He's a good player. We haven't gotten to do many Phillies games for me to see him for myself, but his numbers alone indicate he is very good. Still, I think Pujols is much better because of all he provides for his team defensively as well as leadership ability. Neither of those guys would have cut it in the days I played, though. The game is much easier to play now.

 

Please tell me he didn't say that. . . :shock:

 

No way even Morgan could say something that goofy....tell me it ain't so Joe!

No, it's a joke. :)

[TheDude]

Ryan Howard is going to make the 50 HR mark matter again, a mark worthy of awe.

[EastonBlues22]

Yes, but the problem is, if they both are healthy the rest of the year, Pujols won't have the same number of ABs. While it's not his fault that he got hurt, he'll likely finish the season having played about 15 games fewer than Howard. In a close race, that can and should make a difference.

Why? Looking at FRAR/VORP, Pujols is about two full marginal wins (9 to 7) better than Howard is, at the same position, even with the decreased playing time. Even if you throw out the FRAR and ignore defense completely, Pujols still has the higher VORP by about half a game.

 

In a close race, shouldn't the player who contributes more to his team come out ahead of the guy who plays more games? :wink:

 

Just teasing...I understand your point. I'm really looking forward to the next month as the MVP and playoff races sort themselves out. IMO, this is one of the most exciting baseball Septembers in recent memory.

[soccer10k]

Why are the numbers post ASB anymore important than the ones pre ASB? Every game counts the same.

 

I bet if Pujols were having the great second half, you'd have argued differently :D

 

What I am saying is that with the Phillies one game over .500 and one and a half out of the WC, it's a bit early to be calling him the clear favorite since so much of the argument for him rests on the Phillies actually getting in.

 

Actually the best argument for him being MVP is the projected finish of 62 HR, around 160 RBI and an OPS of 1.060. Regardless of whether the Phillies make the playoffs, those stats are ridiculous.

 

Pujols OPS = 1.104.

[YearofDaCubs]

Yes, but the problem is, if they both are healthy the rest of the year, Pujols won't have the same number of ABs. While it's not his fault that he got hurt, he'll likely finish the season having played about 15 games fewer than Howard. In a close race, that can and should make a difference.

IMO, this is one of the most exciting baseball Septembers in recent memory.

Not if you're a Cubs fan :)

[Soriano12]

Someone get Howard a pee-cup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hehe..j/k

[Soul]

Ryan Howard is going to make the 50 HR mark matter again, a mark worthy of awe.

 

Really?

 

I hate to bring this up, but are we sure we're seeing what we think we're seeing (if you know what I mean)?

[soccer10k]

Ryan Howard is going to make the 50 HR mark matter again, a mark worthy of awe.

 

Really?

 

I hate to bring this up, but are we sure we're seeing what we think we're seeing (if you know what I mean)?

 

It sucks that everytime a professional athlete does something remarkable, we as fans instantly think about whether or not the player is taking steroids?

[NorthsideAvenger]

IMO, atleast this yr, Howard is more important to the Phillies then Albert is to the Cards. I mean, without Howard...the Philles would be Cubbieesques offensively. Even after dealing Bobby Abreu, Howard has step up his game a notch. When Pujols was out, the Cubs "barely' hung on to their league. I mean the Cards were pretty much lost without Pujols, but the Phillies would be lost without Howard.

 

So, again, I truly believe Howars is the REAL MVP, but Albert will get basically because he is "the name."

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'd certainly like Howard to get it over Pujols, but when looked at objectively, Pujols is still the MVP. Outside of HR and the worthless RBI stat, Pujols is the leader any which way you look at it.

 

Value is in production, and Pujols has the greater production.

[Rob]

Personally, my vote would go to Beltran or Cabrera... similar stats at harder defensive positions... much moreso with Beltran.

 

At any rate, Ryan Howard sure is looking like I got a steal... drafting him in the 14th round of our fantasy league.

[EastonBlues22]

IMO, atleast this yr, Howard is more important to the Phillies then Albert is to the Cards. I mean, without Howard...the Philles would be Cubbieesques offensively. Even after dealing Bobby Abreu, Howard has step up his game a notch. When Pujols was out, the Cubs "barely' hung on to their league. I mean the Cards were pretty much lost without Pujols, but the Phillies would be lost without Howard.

 

So, again, I truly believe Howars is the REAL MVP, but Albert will get basically because he is "the name."

This is a myth, and it is simply not true.

 

The relative production of the Phillies and Cards at every batting slot (Phillies cumulative OPS in the slot - Cards cumulative OPS): A positive number favors PHI, an negative one the Cards.

 

1: .101

2: .207

3: -.247

4: -.018

5: .087

6: .058

7: .092

8: -.051

 

We'll ignore the #3 and #4 slots because that's where Pujols and Howard reside and this is to see what the rest of their teams are doing. Of the remaining 6 slots...PHI has the clear advantage in five of them. Average all 6 and you get a .082 advantage to Philly...that's right, about 80 OPS points at every other slot in the order besides #3, and #4. That's significant.

 

Of the 5 slots where they are better, PHI averages a dominating .109 OPS advantage over their Cards counterparts. The one slot that swings in the Cards favor is the #8 slot...the least important out of all of them...and it favors the Cards at a rate less than half what the other five slots favor PHI.

 

I have found absolutely no argument based on numbers that the Phillies would be worse off without Howard than the Cards would be without Pujols. The rest of their PHI's supporting cast is just that much better offensively than what the Cards have.

[TruffleShuffle]

I honestly won't have a problem with either guy being picked. They're both having great years and I think they're both worthy choices. When you think about the joke that is the NL Cy Young "race", be happy that the NL MVP will have proved himself much more worthy.

[EastonBlues22]

I honestly won't have a problem with either guy being picked. They're both having great years and I think they're both worthy choices. When you think about the joke that is the NL Cy Young "race", be happy that the NL MVP will have proved himself much more worthy.

Well said.

[TruffleShuffle]

I honestly won't have a problem with either guy being picked. They're both having great years and I think they're both worthy choices. When you think about the joke that is the NL Cy Young "race", be happy that the NL MVP will have proved himself much more worthy.

Well said.

 

While I'm saying intelligent things, I'll also note that Beltran has had a really, really good year, and Miguel Cabrera happens to be #2 in VORP to Pujols. Both those guys have an OPS of 1.000 playing half their games in a pitchers' park. So, it'll likely be Howard or Pujols, but two other NL guys have been truly great this year as well.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

It would be a shame if anyone but Pujols won the MVP this year.

[TruffleShuffle]

It would be a shame if anyone but Pujols won the MVP this year.

 

I take it you were up in arms when Sosa beat McGwire for the MVP in 1998, then?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

It would be a shame if anyone but Pujols won the MVP this year.

 

I take it you were up in arms when Sosa beat McGwire for the MVP in 1998, then?

 

I was 11, so I don't think I really had much of an educated opinion.

[TruffleShuffle]

It would be a shame if anyone but Pujols won the MVP this year.

 

I take it you were up in arms when Sosa beat McGwire for the MVP in 1998, then?

 

I was 11, so I don't think I really had much of an educated opinion.

 

Ah, I see. Well, I will say that Howard will likely finish with numbers basically as good as Sosa's, and his competition will have numbers significantly worse than McGwire.

[imb]

Just because the voters screwed up in 98 doesnt mean they should screw up today.

 

if the season ended now, pujols should be the mvp.

 

by the end of the season, who knows.

[TruffleShuffle]

Just because the voters screwed up in 98 doesnt mean they should screw up today.

 

if the season ended now, pujols should be the mvp.

 

by the end of the season, who knows.

 

Just call it a personal preference. I have nothing against Pujols. I just like the way Howard has carried the Phillies back into the race, and it's hard to ignore the potential for 60 HR and 160 RBI. I'm well aware that Pujols is better in all the "stat geek" categories - which I obviously follow as well.