What's gone right since Bartman?

[Scott G. F.]

What's gone right since Bartman?

 

Really not much.

 

Ron Santo lost another leg.

 

Steve Stone was run out of town, Chip smartly left.

 

Kerry Wood and Mark Prior have pitched more simulated games then real ones.

 

Mark Prior after coming back gets hit on the "pitching elbow" in a game.

 

Kerry Wood discovers a tare in his throwing should after several MRI's and Authorgrams. So much for the experts!!!

 

D Lee runs in to Raphal Furcal (The one FA "get" Hendry needed in the off season and failed to). Breaks is wrist and is basically out the rest of 2006.

 

LaTroy Hawkins is continually put into the closers role and continues to fail. I liked LaTroy and blame Dusty for his demise. He's a set-up man!!!!

 

Marcis'a made the 2004 and 2005 teams. Neifi is still on the team?!!!!

 

Glendon Rusch climbs out of the grave to reclaim a career then falls back into the grave after siging for big money.

 

Choi, Hill, Jason Dubois, Matt Lawton, Hairston Jr. , Andy Pratt (who's arm nearly came off), Sweaty Joe Boroski, Mike Remlinger, Jeromy Burnitz....All played below levels expected through ineptness, injury or misuse.

 

Cubs don't resign Nomar.

 

Cubs trash Sammy Sosa in the press after gaining permission to leave from Dusty.

 

Ron Santo get's bypassed again for the Hall. This time by his fellow baseball era players.

 

Jim Hendry is extended for 2 years.

 

Cubs sign a lead off hitter 2 years after they needed him the most. Now the Cubs have a lead off hitter with no one to drive him in.

 

Shall I continue? I think we all could.....

[Ding Dong Johnson]

admittedly I watch mostly Cubs games wehn I watch baseball, but I seriously never see the types of things that happens to the Cubs happening to other teams.

 

That's because you're mainly watching Cubs games. Watch more baseball, and you will see bad teams everywhere experiencing the same problems.

[JonnyRed]

I'll say up front that I don't believe in curse (human or animal), but I do feel that something in the baseball universe shifted after a certain fan interrupted the Cubs momentum (and some say concentration) just 5 outs from the 04WS.

 

:-s

 

Sorry bout that.

[Scott G. F.]

admittedly I watch mostly Cubs games wehn I watch baseball, but I seriously never see the types of things that happens to the Cubs happening to other teams.

 

That's because you're mainly watching Cubs games. Watch more baseball, and you will see bad teams everywhere experiencing the same problems.

 

 

Pedro, since the D-Rays are right down the street I have watched them. It seems the Cubs rank very high in the "what just happened there?" catagory. The D-Ray IMO have asuch an upside and are fun to watch even in losing. The Cubs are a tragic Opera over and over. Like listening to "Might Casey" over and over and over again hoping he's going to hit the damn ball or watching and waiting for Charlie Brown to finally kick the ball.

Whether chalked up to bad luck or whatever some strange stuff has happened to the Cubs since 2003. Mostly stupid management granted but other things as well.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I really can't believe that this topic is even being debated. There are so many tangible things wrong with this organization from top to bottom that it's absurd to me for anyone to blame some sort of cosmic force or . The 2003 Cubs probably shouldn't have won the division. The Central was incredibly weak, and they played great ball in the 2nd half to get to the playoffs. They played incredibly and beat the Braves in the NLDS when they probably shouldn't have. They should have probably beat the Marlins, but they didn't. Bartman has become the scapegoat on a foul ball that may or may not have been caught by Alou. Gonzalez bobbled a DP ball, and I'm pretty sure it was not the first error in the history of MLB or the playoffs. Prior ran out of gas (big surprise). We blew a 3-run lead in the 8th inning of a game. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a first either.

 

2004 should have been better. Alou had a great year and Barrett contributed more than we all expected, but we lost Kenny Lofton and his 381 OBP, Sosa was in the midst of a massive decline, DLee was nowhere near the DLee we saw last year, Ramon Martinez got the bulk of the duty at SS, and Prior and Wood were both injured (again, big surprise). Borowski was horrible then injured, Sergio Mitre started too many games, Farnsworth was in every-other mode, and LaTroy was inexplicably left in to blow close games despite being a dominant setup man. Hollandsworth got hurt (same injury he had before he joined the club), Bako was our offensive wasteland of a backup catcher, and Jose Macias saw action in 98 games. Honorable mention goes to Rey rnez and 73 year old Tom Goodwin for their contributions.

 

2005 and 2006 have been exercises in futility with the management. Quality players have been let walk without being adequately replaced. If Prior and Wood and Lee were all at 100% this season, it's likely we'd still be a bad team overall, just not as bad as we are.

[Derwood]

I really can't believe that this topic is even being debated. There are so many tangible things wrong with this organization from top to bottom that it's absurd to me for anyone to blame some sort of cosmic force or . The 2003 Cubs probably shouldn't have won the division. The Central was incredibly weak, and they played great ball in the 2nd half to get to the playoffs. They played incredibly and beat the Braves in the NLDS when they probably shouldn't have. They should have probably beat the Marlins, but they didn't. Bartman has become the scapegoat on a foul ball that may or may not have been caught by Alou. Gonzalez bobbled a DP ball, and I'm pretty sure it was not the first error in the history of MLB or the playoffs. Prior ran out of gas (big surprise). We blew a 3-run lead in the 8th inning of a game. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a first either.

 

2004 should have been better. Alou had a great year and Barrett contributed more than we all expected, but we lost Kenny Lofton and his 381 OBP, Sosa was in the midst of a massive decline, DLee was nowhere near the DLee we saw last year, Ramon Martinez got the bulk of the duty at SS, and Prior and Wood were both injured (again, big surprise). Borowski was horrible then injured, Sergio Mitre started too many games, Farnsworth was in every-other mode, and LaTroy was inexplicably left in to blow close games despite being a dominant setup man. Hollandsworth got hurt (same injury he had before he joined the club), Bako was our offensive wasteland of a backup catcher, and Jose Macias saw action in 98 games. Honorable mention goes to Rey rnez and 73 year old Tom Goodwin for their contributions.

 

2005 and 2006 have been exercises in futility with the management. Quality players have been let walk without being adequately replaced. If Prior and Wood and Lee were all at 100% this season, it's likely we'd still be a bad team overall, just not as bad as we are.

 

so you're saying it's not a curse?

[BigbadB]

It's not a curse, it's inept management.

 

It's the curse of inept management!!!

 

Preach it!

[thedaymen]

even injuries aside, there is alot in this game that is considered luck. the accepted line is that luck balances out, but it sure doesn't seem to.

 

admittedly I watch mostly Cubs games wehn I watch baseball, but I seriously never see the types of things that happens to the Cubs happening to other teams. look at the game tonight. how many times have Cubs pitchers shattered bats the past three years, only to have the ball fall in for a key bloop hit that changes the outcome of a game. or Ronnie's second K tonight. how many times have you seen Cubs players take pitches that were close, but probably out of the zone, only to have the ump ring them up.

 

Happens all the time, to a lot of teams. The sad thing last night was that ump had a tiny strike zone that Trach and Maddux were both frustrated with but for Ronny is was Lake Eerie.

 

 

the big inning last week when the Mets scored 11. let's not forget the first three hitters of that inning should have been out. IIRC there was a dribbler to Walker that he momentarily bobbled but Beltran was hustling. then an infield hit, then a blooper in the bermuda triangle, followed by Floyd flicking his bat out and reaching the basket. 1 foot either way on any of the four, and the inning is over.

 

Part of this is "you make your own luck." How often have we typed "a heads up play by Jones led to the inning being extended" or "Ramirez really hustled that one out." Beltran hustled. Mets got extended. They deserved it.

 

Preston Wilson goes opposite field for the first time in his career to get the key hit against the Cubs in a game this year. Prior was abused, but the in season injuries have had nothing to do with anything but bad luck. does anybody honestly believe the non ball/strike bad calls we have dealt with the past three years have evenned out in any way?

 

No, but a big part of getting or losing close calls is reputation. The Cubs have the reputation of not knowing the strike zone from the Dead Zone (Sundays on TNT) so they don't get calls. Remember last year when Z was always feuding with the umps? I bet that helped him get a lot of calls. You make your own luck.

 

watching the midseason webgem nominees in 2004. fully 40% of them were against the Cubs. watching the midsummer top plays for all of espn in 2004. three of them were agaisnt the Cubs. three of the top plays in all of sports against the Cubs. is that bad luck or did the Cubs somehow bring that on themselves?

 

I haven't watched those broadcasts, so I'll take your word for it.

 

there's so much that goes wrong for the Cubs that can not be explained with anything but bad luck.

 

Bad players and management is the biggest thing wrong with the Cubs.

[Andy]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Cubs are unlucky AND (mostly) inept.

 

And for the record, the good things that have happened are thus:

 

Barrett has blossomed into one of the best hitting catchers in recent years. Not Piazza good, but really friggin good.

 

Derrek Lee had one of the greatest non-Sammy seasons in the history of the team and competed for a Triple Crown into September (at one point in late August he was still only 2 HR and 7 RBI behind Triple Crown pace).

 

Aramis Ramirez has become a pretty consistently good hitter after some rough pre-Cubs times. His defense has also improved by leaps and bounds.

 

Carlos Zambrano has turned in a very short time from "3rd of 3 aces" to "ultimate badass player and possibly the greatest human being ever". It's almost inarguable that if you had to pick one player to follow around for an entire season, that most anyone who knows enough about him would pick Z. It's also worth noting that despite way too many pitches thrown, Z still hasn't suffered any ill effects, and this is the 3rd straight year of this. Odds are he will someday have some ramifications, but you never know.

 

Granted, the Nomar deal didn't work out the way we all wanted, but for about 6 weeks from Aug-Sept 2004, the Cubs were THE team that no one wanted to face in a postseason series.

 

The bad things are already listed, and heavily outweigh the good things, but there are two sides to this coin, and I'd still rather be a Cubs fan than the alternative.

[Sosa21MVP]

I'll say up front that I don't believe in curse (human or animal), but I do feel that something in the baseball universe shifted after a certain fan interrupted the Cubs momentum (and some say concentration) just 5 outs from the 04WS. Really, has ANYTHING gone right for this hardluck franchise since that moment? Two pitchers capable of being the best Cubs hurlers in a generation are falling apart before our eyes. Our major trade acquisition followed up 1 1/3 injured packed seasons by returning to his top 10 hitter status now that he's in LA. Our MVP gets injured in a freak accident that has rendered his 2006 useless. And, I almost forgot, our best hitter in a generation left town with a dark cloud hanging over his head. Meanwhile, to make matters worse, the hated team on the southside can't seem to do anything wrong. Please help me find a glimmer of hope in all of this dispair. The only thing I can come up with is that when we final win the World Series, it will be all the more sweet because of truly how bad things have gotten.

 

Forget Bartman, has anything gone right since Alex Gonzalez booted the potential inning ending double-play ball which would have allowed the Cubs to escape that inning with the lead intact?

 

Sure the Cubs have had some bad luck since then. The 2004 team seemed poise to make it back to the postseason and we even made a huge deadline pickup in Nomar which is something the Cubs aren't know for doing. But LaTroy blew a sure win in New York and the roof caved in.

 

The 2005 Cubs at least were in the race for part of the season.

 

Overall, my experience with the Cubs has led me to believe the 2004 & 2005 seasons weren't the worst thing in the world. The team was competitive at least. The 2006 Cubs are a huge disaster but not the biggest one. The 0-14 start of 1997 still rings clear in my mind.

 

One thing about the Cubs in my lifetime, usually the good seasons kind of appear out of nowhere. The 1989, 1998, 2001, 2003 teams stand out to me as examples of that, although in fairness the '98 team did have some positive hype out of the gate with some of the offseason moves.

 

The success of the White Sox only gives me hope. I don't hate them. The fact the Red Sox and White Sox could win the World Series in back-2-back seasons should be encouraging. Curses are BS, winning a title just takes the right combination of talent, luck and timing. Turnarounds in baseball happen quite quickly with the right moves. Look at Detroit, they were 43-119 in 2003 and now they are 35 games over .500.

 

This too shall pass. The Cubs will have their chances again. Whether they convert those chances into the long awaited goals of a NL pennant and world title, I don't know. But I have no doubt the Cubs will get back in that position. They always find a way to do it, even for one season. It's not like the Cubs have lost 90+ games and never made the playoffs since 1945.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Cubs are unlucky AND (mostly) inept.

 

Thank you. This is the BEST thing I read in this thread. It's simply bad luck that the Cubs has had so many injuries, and whatnot. But it is also bad management for not adding depth with QUALITY players, not quantity player. So, again...it's both BAD LUCK and INEPTITUDE that's been the downfall to the franchise.

 

And for the record, the good things that have happened are thus:

 

Barrett has blossomed into one of the best hitting catchers in recent years. Not Piazza good, but really friggin good.

 

Derrek Lee had one of the greatest non-Sammy seasons in the history of the team and competed for a Triple Crown into September (at one point in late August he was still only 2 HR and 7 RBI behind Triple Crown pace).

 

Aramis Ramirez has become a pretty consistently good hitter after some rough pre-Cubs times. His defense has also improved by leaps and bounds.

 

Carlos Zambrano has turned in a very short time from "3rd of 3 aces" to "ultimate badass player and possibly the greatest human being ever". It's almost inarguable that if you had to pick one player to follow around for an entire season, that most anyone who knows enough about him would pick Z. It's also worth noting that despite way too many pitches thrown, Z still hasn't suffered any ill effects, and this is the 3rd straight year of this. Odds are he will someday have some ramifications, but you never know.

 

Granted, the Nomar deal didn't work out the way we all wanted, but for about 6 weeks from Aug-Sept 2004, the Cubs were THE team that no one wanted to face in a postseason series.

 

The bad things are already listed, and heavily outweigh the good things, but there are two sides to this coin, and I'd still rather be a Cubs fan than the alternative.

 

Agreed, People tend to focus on the "bad things", but believe it or not, as you mention the Cubs has had several good things happen to them, that includes Z and Barrett developing into on of the best at their positions.

[hardcorecubfan]

can we re-title this what went right since alex gonz. screwed up royally.

[soccer10k]

can we re-title this what went right since alex gonz. screwed up royally.

 

Seconded.

[jjgman21]

can we re-title this what went right since alex gonz. screwed up royally.

 

Seconded.

 

I vote for "what went right since the ump failed to call the obvious fan interference"

[soccer10k]

can we re-title this what went right since alex gonz. screwed up royally.

 

Seconded.

 

I vote for "what went right since the ump failed to call the obvious fan interference"

 

The ump made the right call on the play. Alex Gonzalez should have made that play. It was a routine ground ball. I blame Gonzalez. Not Bartman and not the ump.

[CoolHandLuke]

If AGonz wouldn't have been there to hit some clutch dingers earlier in the year, we may not have even made the playoffs.

[jjgman21]

 

I vote for "what went right since the ump failed to call the obvious fan interference"

 

The ump made the right call on the play.

 

physically impossible. both by Bartman and by Alou. look at the replay sometime and try to re-enact what happens. look at where the ball is coming down and where Alou's glove is. if the ball were in the stands, Alou would have had to have reached across his right shoulder. he does not. he reaches above his head, aka in the field of play. it is nearly impossible for a righthanded player to reach over the wall with his body perpendicular to the wall like Alou was. his chest would have had to have been against the wall in order for him to reach into the stands.

 

from Bartman's perspective, go to a game early sometime, go to the front row, and see where your hands are if you are bending over and reaching out like Bartman. again, in the field of play. I know. I've done it.

 

I believe some physiologist wrote a paper on it which showed pretty conclusively it was physically impossible for that ball to have been in the stands unless both Bartman and Alou were trying to catch the ball at a point about a foot and a half from where it was coming down.

[soccer10k]

 

I vote for "what went right since the ump failed to call the obvious fan interference"

 

The ump made the right call on the play.

 

physically impossible. both by Bartman and by Alou. look at the replay sometime and try to re-enact what happens. look at where the ball is coming down and where Alou's glove is. if the ball were in the stands, Alou would have had to have reached across his right shoulder. he does not. he reaches above his head, aka in the field of play. it is nearly impossible for a righthanded player to reach over the wall with his body perpendicular to the wall like Alou was. his chest would have had to have been against the wall in order for him to reach into the stands.

 

from Bartman's perspective, go to a game early sometime, go to the front row, and see where your hands are if you are bending over and reaching out like Bartman. again, in the field of play. I know. I've done it.

 

I believe some physiologist wrote a paper on it which showed pretty conclusively it was physically impossible for that ball to have been in the stands unless both Bartman and Alou were trying to catch the ball at a point about a foot and a half from where it was coming down.

 

Believe me, I have watched it and seen every shot of the play that has been shown on television. The ball would not have landed in the field of play. But there is no sense in debating this issue because you are obviously very set in your view and likely refuse to consider any other point of view other than your own to be remotely true.

 

Also, considering I live in California, the odds of me just strolling down to Wrigley early before a game, buying a ticket, and going to Bartman's seat.

[Andy]

If AGonz wouldn't have been there to hit some clutch dingers earlier in the year, we may not have even made the playoffs.

Very true, he hit three game winning homers in one week - if he only hits one of them, we may have missed the playoffs because we won the division by only one game.

[soccer10k]

If AGonz wouldn't have been there to hit some clutch dingers earlier in the year, we may not have even made the playoffs.

Very true, he hit three game winning homers in one week - if he only hits one of them, we may have missed the playoffs because we won the division by only one game.

 

You'll have to refresh my memory. Did those home runs come when the Cubs were losing or when the game was tied? If they came when the Cubs were behind, then you are correct. If they came when the Cubs were tied, then you don't know if the Cubs would have won/lost the game.

[jjgman21]

 

Believe me, I have watched it and seen every shot of the play that has been shown on television. The ball would not have landed in the field of play. But there is no sense in debating this issue because you are obviously very set in your view and likely refuse to consider any other point of view other than your own to be remotely true.

 

Also, considering I live in California, the odds of me just strolling down to Wrigley early before a game, buying a ticket, and going to Bartman's seat.

 

 

 

so what you are saying is that you haven't gathered all the evidence possible, and you haven't gathered as much as I have gathered, but you know for sure. you're so openminded about it. it's so obvious you have considered my point of view.

 

now go over to a wall, put your right shoulder against it, imagine a ball is flying to the otherside of the wall, and see if you would be able to reach it.

 

I admire your attempt to be a stand up guy and not make excuses. doesn't change this one simple fact...physically impossible.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

CFP during the '03 offseason had a great breakdown of it. It was fan interference, it should've been called such.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

 

Believe me, I have watched it and seen every shot of the play that has been shown on television. The ball would not have landed in the field of play. But there is no sense in debating this issue because you are obviously very set in your view and likely refuse to consider any other point of view other than your own to be remotely true.

 

Also, considering I live in California, the odds of me just strolling down to Wrigley early before a game, buying a ticket, and going to Bartman's seat.

 

 

 

so what you are saying is that you haven't gathered all the evidence possible, and you haven't gathered as much as I have gathered, but you know for sure. you're so openminded about it. it's so obvious you have considered my point of view.

 

now go over to a wall, put your right shoulder against it, imagine a ball is flying to the otherside of the wall, and see if you would be able to reach it.

 

I admire your attempt to be a stand up guy and not make excuses. doesn't change this one simple fact...physically impossible.

 

Oh for crying out loud, have you ever once stopped to consider that you may not be right all of the damn time? That was not an obvious fan interference call. I've seen the replay from different angles dozens of times, and it looks pretty clear to me that if nobody touched it, the ball would have hit right on top of the wall. Not in the stands, not on the field. Must everything be a pissing match?

[Andy]

If AGonz wouldn't have been there to hit some clutch dingers earlier in the year, we may not have even made the playoffs.

Very true, he hit three game winning homers in one week - if he only hits one of them, we may have missed the playoffs because we won the division by only one game.

 

You'll have to refresh my memory. Did those home runs come when the Cubs were losing or when the game was tied? If they came when the Cubs were behind, then you are correct. If they came when the Cubs were tied, then you don't know if the Cubs would have won/lost the game.

One was against SF, two against STL, and I am pretty sure that the SF one occurred when they were losing. I remember he almost had a 4th one a few days later at Milwaukee but Geoff Jenkins robbed it.

[soccer10k]

 

Believe me, I have watched it and seen every shot of the play that has been shown on television. The ball would not have landed in the field of play. But there is no sense in debating this issue because you are obviously very set in your view and likely refuse to consider any other point of view other than your own to be remotely true.

 

Also, considering I live in California, the odds of me just strolling down to Wrigley early before a game, buying a ticket, and going to Bartman's seat.

 

 

 

so what you are saying is that you haven't gathered all the evidence possible, and you haven't gathered as much as I have gathered, but you know for sure. you're so openminded about it. it's so obvious you have considered my point of view.

 

now go over to a wall, put your right shoulder against it, imagine a ball is flying to the otherside of the wall, and see if you would be able to reach it.

 

I admire your attempt to be a stand up guy and not make excuses. doesn't change this one simple fact...physically impossible.

 

Oh for crying out loud, have you ever once stopped to consider that you may not be right all of the damn time? That was not an obvious fan interference call. I've seen the replay from different angles dozens of times, and it looks pretty clear to me that if nobody touched it, the ball would have hit right on top of the wall. Not in the stands, not on the field. Must everything be a pissing match?

 

Thanks for the defense Pedro.