Maddux and $$$ to the Dodgers for Cesar Izturis

[cubfan1955]

If I was GM this team wouldn't look at all like this.

 

But if I inherited this mess, and only had a year or two to turn it around (which I assume is Hendry's timeline), then, I guess I'd throw money at Soriano, with Lee as a backup plan and just hope it doesn't blow up in my face too badly. I'd love to trade Izturis off to Baltimore in a swap for Tejada.

 

I really don't know. I used to spend lots of time looking at possible moves and whatnot, but haven't recently. The endless series of disappointing moves took the fun out of it.

The problem is...we need both of them plus another front line pitcher. Unless the Trib raises the payroll up to $120 million or so we're in deep doo doo in 2007...yet again.

 

I think any deal for Tejada and Baltimore would want Z. That just can't happen.

[frostwyrm]

It was funny on the Murphy show Hendry said he value's RISP over OBP.

Hendry actually said that?

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

It was funny on the Murphy show Hendry said he value's RISP over OBP.

Hendry actually said that?

 

Here's the interview........

 

http://670thescore.com/podspot/pages/murphy/4.shtml

[C.C.]

It was funny on the Murphy show Hendry said he value's RISP over OBP.

Hendry actually said that?

 

Sure did! Murphy mentioned how Oakland A's preaches OBP starting with the lowest levels on the minor leagues and why don't the Cubs. Hendry said if you look at the Stats Oakland is one of the worst in the league in OBP.

[C.C.]

If I was GM this team wouldn't look at all like this.

 

But if I inherited this mess, and only had a year or two to turn it around (which I assume is Hendry's timeline), then, I guess I'd throw money at Soriano, with Lee as a backup plan and just hope it doesn't blow up in my face too badly. I'd love to trade Izturis off to Baltimore in a swap for Tejada.

 

I really don't know. I used to spend lots of time looking at possible moves and whatnot, but haven't recently. The endless series of disappointing moves took the fun out of it.

The problem is...we need both of them plus another front line pitcher. Unless the Trib raises the payroll up to $120 million or so we're in deep doo doo in 2007...yet again.

 

I think any deal for Tejada and Baltimore would want Z. That just can't happen.

 

I'm not so sure. The NL just stinks and it'll prolly be the same next year. If we add another starter and a Soriano or Lee, we can compete with anyone in the NL. I really believe that...Of course we need to stay healthy...

[cubfan1955]

If I was GM this team wouldn't look at all like this.

 

But if I inherited this mess, and only had a year or two to turn it around (which I assume is Hendry's timeline), then, I guess I'd throw money at Soriano, with Lee as a backup plan and just hope it doesn't blow up in my face too badly. I'd love to trade Izturis off to Baltimore in a swap for Tejada.

 

I really don't know. I used to spend lots of time looking at possible moves and whatnot, but haven't recently. The endless series of disappointing moves took the fun out of it.

The problem is...we need both of them plus another front line pitcher. Unless the Trib raises the payroll up to $120 million or so we're in deep doo doo in 2007...yet again.

 

I think any deal for Tejada and Baltimore would want Z. That just can't happen.

 

I'm not so sure. The NL just stinks and it'll prolly be the same next year. If we add another starter and a Soriano or Lee, we can compete with anyone in the NL. I really believe that...Of course we need to stay healthy...

I don't think the NL can be as bad next year. I think we'll need to replace 2 of the 3 bats of Cedeno, Murton, and Izturis to have a chance to keep up.

[C.C.]

If I was GM this team wouldn't look at all like this.

 

But if I inherited this mess, and only had a year or two to turn it around (which I assume is Hendry's timeline), then, I guess I'd throw money at Soriano, with Lee as a backup plan and just hope it doesn't blow up in my face too badly. I'd love to trade Izturis off to Baltimore in a swap for Tejada.

 

I really don't know. I used to spend lots of time looking at possible moves and whatnot, but haven't recently. The endless series of disappointing moves took the fun out of it.

The problem is...we need both of them plus another front line pitcher. Unless the Trib raises the payroll up to $120 million or so we're in deep doo doo in 2007...yet again.

 

I think any deal for Tejada and Baltimore would want Z. That just can't happen.

 

I'm not so sure. The NL just stinks and it'll prolly be the same next year. If we add another starter and a Soriano or Lee, we can compete with anyone in the NL. I really believe that...Of course we need to stay healthy...

I don't think the NL can be as bad next year. I think we'll need to replace 2 of the 3 bats of Cedeno, Murton, and Izturis to have a chance to keep up.

 

Izturis will be the starting SS next year. No doubt about it. Murton will not be the LF'er next year and who knows about Cedeno.

[Magnetic Curses]

If I was GM this team wouldn't look at all like this.

 

But if I inherited this mess, and only had a year or two to turn it around (which I assume is Hendry's timeline), then, I guess I'd throw money at Soriano, with Lee as a backup plan and just hope it doesn't blow up in my face too badly. I'd love to trade Izturis off to Baltimore in a swap for Tejada.

 

I really don't know. I used to spend lots of time looking at possible moves and whatnot, but haven't recently. The endless series of disappointing moves took the fun out of it.

The problem is...we need both of them plus another front line pitcher. Unless the Trib raises the payroll up to $120 million or so we're in deep doo doo in 2007...yet again.

 

I think any deal for Tejada and Baltimore would want Z. That just can't happen.

 

I'm not so sure. The NL just stinks and it'll prolly be the same next year. If we add another starter and a Soriano or Lee, we can compete with anyone in the NL. I really believe that...Of course we need to stay healthy...

 

if beane didn't have to rely on developing players with high IsoD while making a few minor deals then he'd have a point, but hendry is in control of a major market franchise.

 

and why won't some people just admit that not making outs contributes to scoring runs? i'm not sure why people are against not making outs, maybe they want the cubs to make outs at a higher rate (if that's even possible)?

[imb]

It was funny on the Murphy show Hendry said he value's RISP over OBP.

Hendry actually said that?

 

Sure did! Murphy mentioned how Oakland A's preaches OBP starting with the lowest levels on the minor leagues and why don't the Cubs. Hendry said if you look at the Stats Oakland is one of the worst in the league in OBP.

 

Jesus Christmas he's an idiot. The A's obp is low and their offense sucks. God Hendry is a toolbox.

[abuck1220]

It was funny on the Murphy show Hendry said he value's RISP over OBP.

Hendry actually said that?

 

Sure did! Murphy mentioned how Oakland A's preaches OBP starting with the lowest levels on the minor leagues and why don't the Cubs. Hendry said if you look at the Stats Oakland is one of the worst in the league in OBP.

 

what a perfect chance to say, "yeah, well you preach average with RISP and the cubs suck at that."

[NCCubFan]

All Maddux did in his Dodgers' debut was pitch six no-hit innings and get the win in a 3-0 game. He was removed after six innings due to a 45 minute rain delay.

[baseball7897]

All Maddux did in his Dodgers' debut was pitch six no-hit innings and get the win in a 3-0 game. He was removed after six innings due to a 45 minute rain delay.

 

Good for him. :D

[cheapseats]

Blech. Not that the Cubs should have expected to get much for making Walker and Maddux a couple of two-month rentals for teams that matter in the standings, but they managed to actually hurt themselves in the process. The only way getting Izturis helps them is if they've decided that Ronny Cedeno needs to go back to Iowa. If they instead think that, because Izturis is under contract through 2008 (counting a team option the Cubs might forego), they'll have a particularly slick-fielding middle infield combo of Izturis at second opposite Cedeno, then they're just begging to suck. A combination of Izturis and Cedeno won't score runs for you, but it will conjure up memories of particularly feeble middle infield combos of the '70s, like the ones that Dusty Baker played with when he was a Brave (who can forget Marty Perez and Larvell Blanks in 1975?). Izturis has had a pair of good Aprils (in 2004 and 2005), which helps create the impression that he can play, where the rest of his career gives a pretty solid indication that he whatever else, he really shouldn't be an everyday player. It's more appalling still when you recognize that Neifi Perez is also under contract for next season, so the Cubs may well wind up with all three of their middle infielders struggling to post a .300 OBP.

[CubColtPacer]

Blech. Not that the Cubs should have expected to get much for making Walker and Maddux a couple of two-month rentals for teams that matter in the standings, but they managed to actually hurt themselves in the process. The only way getting Izturis helps them is if they've decided that Ronny Cedeno needs to go back to Iowa. If they instead think that, because Izturis is under contract through 2008 (counting a team option the Cubs might forego), they'll have a particularly slick-fielding middle infield combo of Izturis at second opposite Cedeno, then they're just begging to suck. A combination of Izturis and Cedeno won't score runs for you, but it will conjure up memories of particularly feeble middle infield combos of the '70s, like the ones that Dusty Baker played with when he was a Brave (who can forget Marty Perez and Larvell Blanks in 1975?). Izturis has had a pair of good Aprils (in 2004 and 2005), which helps create the impression that he can play, where the rest of his career gives a pretty solid indication that he whatever else, he really shouldn't be an everyday player. It's more appalling still when you recognize that Neifi Perez is also under contract for next season, so the Cubs may well wind up with all three of their middle infielders struggling to post a .300 OBP.

 

The one thing I'm confused by that article is the indication that the 2 Aprils were the only months he could hit in those two seasons-when April each year was only his 2nd best month by a good amount. (July 04, May 05 were his best 2 months). Other than that I agree-like they said, Izturis is an upgrade if it means Cedeno does not play 2nd next year. Otherwise, we'll have a pretty good amount of offense to make up next year from other positions.

[Shilzzz]

Blech. Not that the Cubs should have expected to get much for making Walker and Maddux a couple of two-month rentals for teams that matter in the standings, but they managed to actually hurt themselves in the process. The only way getting Izturis helps them is if they've decided that Ronny Cedeno needs to go back to Iowa. If they instead think that, because Izturis is under contract through 2008 (counting a team option the Cubs might forego), they'll have a particularly slick-fielding middle infield combo of Izturis at second opposite Cedeno, then they're just begging to suck. A combination of Izturis and Cedeno won't score runs for you, but it will conjure up memories of particularly feeble middle infield combos of the '70s, like the ones that Dusty Baker played with when he was a Brave (who can forget Marty Perez and Larvell Blanks in 1975?). Izturis has had a pair of good Aprils (in 2004 and 2005), which helps create the impression that he can play, where the rest of his career gives a pretty solid indication that he whatever else, he really shouldn't be an everyday player. It's more appalling still when you recognize that Neifi Perez is also under contract for next season, so the Cubs may well wind up with all three of their middle infielders struggling to post a .300 OBP.

 

The one thing I'm confused by that article is the indication that the 2 Aprils were the only months he could hit in those two seasons-when April each year was only his 2nd best month by a good amount. (July 04, May 05 were his best 2 months). Other than that I agree-like they said, Izturis is an upgrade if it means Cedeno does not play 2nd next year. Otherwise, we'll have a pretty good amount of offense to make up next year from other positions.

 

no where in the article does it say that those are the only good months he's had. i think it's implying that if you get off to a good start in april, your numbers will look better longer.

[CubsWin]

Blech. Not that the Cubs should have expected to get much for making Walker and Maddux a couple of two-month rentals for teams that matter in the standings, but they managed to actually hurt themselves in the process. The only way getting Izturis helps them is if they've decided that Ronny Cedeno needs to go back to Iowa. If they instead think that, because Izturis is under contract through 2008 (counting a team option the Cubs might forego), they'll have a particularly slick-fielding middle infield combo of Izturis at second opposite Cedeno, then they're just begging to suck. A combination of Izturis and Cedeno won't score runs for you, but it will conjure up memories of particularly feeble middle infield combos of the '70s, like the ones that Dusty Baker played with when he was a Brave (who can forget Marty Perez and Larvell Blanks in 1975?). Izturis has had a pair of good Aprils (in 2004 and 2005), which helps create the impression that he can play, where the rest of his career gives a pretty solid indication that he whatever else, he really shouldn't be an everyday player. It's more appalling still when you recognize that Neifi Perez is also under contract for next season, so the Cubs may well wind up with all three of their middle infielders struggling to post a .300 OBP.

 

The one thing I'm confused by that article is the indication that the 2 Aprils were the only months he could hit in those two seasons-when April each year was only his 2nd best month by a good amount. (July 04, May 05 were his best 2 months). Other than that I agree-like they said, Izturis is an upgrade if it means Cedeno does not play 2nd next year. Otherwise, we'll have a pretty good amount of offense to make up next year from other positions.

 

no where in the article does it say that those are the only good months he's had. i think it's implying that if you get off to a good start in april, your numbers will look better longer.

What makes BP an authority on who should and should not be an everyday player? Does defense at the SS position which was not quantified or even mentioned positively in the above quote really matter so little? Would I prefer a SS who can pick it and get on base more than 35% of the time with some pop? Of course. But how available are they? Are their 30 of them? There would have to be in order to clearly determine that Cesar Izturis should not be an everyday player. If not, that statement becomes very debatable and BP's unqualified stance on the subject makes them look myopic.

[cheapseats]

What makes BP an authority on who should and should not be an everyday player? Does defense at the SS position which was not quantified or even mentioned positively in the above quote really matter so little? Would I prefer a SS who can pick it and get on base more than 35% of the time with some pop? Of course. But how available are they? Are their 30 of them? There would have to be in order to clearly determine that Cesar Izturis should not be an everyday player. If not, that statement becomes very debatable and BP's unqualified stance on the subject makes them look myopic.

 

BP doesn't have a stance on Izturis. Christina Karhl does. She writes for BP.

 

There are teams for which Izturis as an everyday shortstop might be an asset, teams that have hitting at the other positions. The Cubs are not one of those teams. Karhl is correct.

[CuseCubFan69]

What injury did Izturis have in the past?

[goonys evil twin]

What injury did Izturis have in the past?

 

He had Tommy John surgery and apparantly has a degenerative arthritic elbow or something like that.

[cheapseats]

What injury did Izturis have in the past?

 

He had Tommy John surgery and apparantly has a degenerative arthritic elbow or something like that.

 

And he had elbow-related setbacks during rehab, and a lot of baseball people thought the Dodgers should move Izturis to second so he could make shorter throws to avoid further damage to the elbow.

 

Other than that, he's fine.

[CuseCubFan69]

What injury did Izturis have in the past?

 

He had Tommy John surgery and apparantly has a degenerative arthritic elbow or something like that.

 

So this trade gets better all the time, eh? Hendry seems to have a thing for injured elbows.

[cheapseats]

 

So this trade gets better all the time, eh? Hendry seems to have a thing for injured elbows.

 

Maybe he has some kind of weird fetish. While I was in London, I found out that there are people who are irresistably attracted to amputees. Perhaps Hendry envisions himself as the Florence Nightingale of GM's?

[CuseCubFan69]

 

So this trade gets better all the time, eh? Hendry seems to have a thing for injured elbows.

 

Maybe he has some kind of weird fetish. While I was in London, I found out that there are people who are irresistably attracted to amputees. Perhaps Hendry envisions himself as the Florence Nightingale of GM's?

 

I have a fetish for teams that stink.

[CubsWin]

What makes BP an authority on who should and should not be an everyday player? Does defense at the SS position which was not quantified or even mentioned positively in the above quote really matter so little? Would I prefer a SS who can pick it and get on base more than 35% of the time with some pop? Of course. But how available are they? Are their 30 of them? There would have to be in order to clearly determine that Cesar Izturis should not be an everyday player. If not, that statement becomes very debatable and BP's unqualified stance on the subject makes them look myopic.

 

BP doesn't have a stance on Izturis. Christina Karhl does. She writes for BP.

Gee, thanks for the clarification. So what makes the author of the article an authority on who should and should not be an everyday SS? Her unqualified stance makes her opinion look myopic. BP still put her article on their website so it reflects poorly on them, too.

 

The points I made still stand. Whether it is BP or Christina Karhl doesn't matter. Defense at the SS position still went unquantified and Karhl's claim that Izturis "shouldn't be an everyday player" is inaccurate which you agree with in your quoted statement below.

 

There are teams for which Izturis as an everyday shortstop might be an asset, teams that have hitting at the other positions. The Cubs are not one of those teams. Karhl is correct.

Then why bother making the claim that Izturis is not an everyday SS?

 

Also, how do you or Ms. Karhl know exactly what the line-up of the Chicago Cubs will be while Cesar Izturis is on the team? Your response doesn't make any sense.

 

If what this uproarious 80-page thread is all about is that neither Izturis nor Cedeno are great offensive middle infielders, I readily agree. They, by themselves, will not score a lot of runs.

[CubsWin]

I couldn't stomach reading the entire thread, but from what I did read some things seem to have been left out of this discussion.

 

Primarily that Cedeno will likely not always produce like he has produced so far this season. He is still just 23, and this is his first full season in the major leagues. The odds on him improving are pretty good.

 

Izturis is signed only through next season and at 26 is entering his prime. He, too, is likely, slightly less likely than Cedeno, but still likely to improve upon his career numbers.

 

Defense up the middle matters.

 

And finally, it is far from guaranteed that Izturis and Cedeno are the starting DP combo next season, especially with the same OF the Cubs have now. Possible? Sure. Hendry has failed to get the necessary big bat in the past. Likely? Perhaps, but many of the same people who are claiming on this message board that Izturis and Cedeno will kill the Cubs chances of scoring enough runs to win next season and that they are guaranteed to be the starters next year are same people who were absolutely certain that when Walker was traded it meant that Neifi Perez was going to be the everyday starter at 2B.