Maddux and $$$ to the Dodgers for Cesar Izturis

[Caryatid]

I'm sticking with this trade. I like this trade...I really do. What do you expect for Maddux? I mean it can't hurt to see what he does for the rest of this wasted year...

 

It can hurt. Because he's signed through 2007, at least, and is really bad at what the Cubs need people to be really good at.

 

I would have taken nobody for Maddux over a deal like this. This hurts the team. I'd have taken a C prospect who doesn't even affect the organization.

 

Who did you want to play SS next year?

 

How do questions like this address the issue? Who else did you want to play? What else did you want for Maddux? If you are going to go with no production at SS, you might as well pay minimum wage (Cedeno) and spend money on other positions. If you are going to spend money on SS, you better get some production. Izturis is expensive and a drag on the offense. This offense can't afford anymore "contributors" who cannot get on base. Why is this so complicated for people?

 

Because the thought is that Izturis and Cedeno both cannot produce offensively, so that must mean they are the same. They are not. Izturis is better offensively and defensively by a pretty good margin. They both have upside still. Will it be enough to justify what is being paid? I don't know-maybe not. Izturis on the team is a definite upgrade from Cedeno at short though, and it's a pretty decent upgrade. If we put Cedeno at second next year, that will be our huge mistake that will be the biggest part in destroying the offense, because his bat is weaker than Izturis's.

 

 

How is Izturis an offensive upgrade by a "pretty good margin?" Cedeno's career OBP is .294, Izturis' is .295. Cedeno's career OPS is .640, Izturis' is .634. Their minor league numbers are almost identical too-in fact, Cedeno's are better.

 

Looks to me like its, at the very least, a wash.

[Tracer Bullet]

What do you expect for Maddux?

 

I'm going to assume you haven't read this entire thread, since there was quite a discussion about the fact that JH turned down several "top prospects" - including possibly Guzman or Kemp - either of which would have been a fantastic return for 2 months of Maddux.

 

I read that also, but was that ever proven? I can't see Hendry turning down those prospects? Why would he?

 

He's not good at his job. Bruce essentially confirmed Will Carroll's report in the thread about his column today.

[Caryatid]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

Abso-frickin-loutely.

 

Defense: Wash (both former GG winners, both actually very good on defense)

 

Offense: Perez has superior numbers, but probably a wash.

 

Cost: Perez

 

Looks simple to me.

 

Don't you think that Iz is a bit more upside to his career then Neifi? I mean you can't be serious?

 

What has he done, either in his minor league or major league career, that's anything better than anything Perez has done?

[Wheelimus]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

Abso-frickin-loutely.

 

Defense: Wash (both former GG winners, both actually very good on defense)

 

Offense: Perez has superior numbers, but probably a wash.

 

Cost: Perez

 

Looks simple to me.

 

Don't you think that Iz is a bit more upside to his career then Neifi? I mean you can't be serious?

 

Because, of course, our coaching staff has had such success coaxing out a players upside.

 

Nevermind you don't pay someone four million dollars in hopes they live up to their "upside", by that point they're already a known quantity, or someone you're looking to dump.

[CubColtPacer]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

Abso-frickin-loutely.

 

Defense: Wash (both former GG winners, both actually very good on defense)

 

Offense: Perez has superior numbers, but probably a wash.

 

Cost: Perez

 

Looks simple to me.

 

Don't you think that Iz is a bit more upside to his career then Neifi? I mean you can't be serious?

 

What has he done, either in his minor league or major league career, that's anything better than anything Perez has done?

 

Posted pretty decent numbers for a shortstop in 2004, led the league in hits till he started playing hurt in 2005 (for 2 months), impoved every single year significantly until he got hurt.

[C.C.]

Because, of course, our coaching staff has had such success coaxing out a players upside.

 

Barrett, Lee, Rameriz...Didn't all these guys play much better since coming over to the Cubs...

[goonys evil twin]

Posted pretty decent numbers for a shortstop in 2004, led the league in hits till he started playing hurt in 2005 (for 2 months), impoved every single year significantly until he got hurt.

 

Neifi Perez was freaking fantastic for a month in 2004 and a month in 2005. Doesn't mean a thing. Izturis has always sucked, and will likely always suck, even if he has an occasional hot streak.

[Guest]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

Abso-frickin-loutely.

 

Defense: Wash (both former GG winners, both actually very good on defense)

 

Offense: Perez has superior numbers, but probably a wash.

 

Cost: Perez

 

Looks simple to me.

 

Don't you think that Iz is a bit more upside to his career then Neifi? I mean you can't be serious?

 

What has he done, either in his minor league or major league career, that's anything better than anything Perez has done?

 

Posted pretty decent numbers for a shortstop in 2004, led the league in hits till he started playing hurt in 2005 (for 2 months), impoved every single year significantly until he got hurt.

A shortstop with a degenerative arthritic condition in his elbow doesn't worry you a bit? What if his batting this season is worse because he'll never be the same hitter again?

 

I don't mean to position that as a certainty at all...but it is something that has to be considered here.

[C.C.]

All this talk reminds me of what Mets fans thought about Jose Reyes until this year...

[goonys evil twin]

All this talk reminds me of what Mets fans thought about Jose Reyes until this year...

 

Um, you're nuts. Mets fans have loved Reyes for a long time. But the only reason people think he is that good is because the other 7 spots in the lineup are great.

[CubColtPacer]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

Abso-frickin-loutely.

 

Defense: Wash (both former GG winners, both actually very good on defense)

 

Offense: Perez has superior numbers, but probably a wash.

 

Cost: Perez

 

Looks simple to me.

 

Don't you think that Iz is a bit more upside to his career then Neifi? I mean you can't be serious?

 

What has he done, either in his minor league or major league career, that's anything better than anything Perez has done?

 

Posted pretty decent numbers for a shortstop in 2004, led the league in hits till he started playing hurt in 2005 (for 2 months), impoved every single year significantly until he got hurt.

A shortstop with a degenerative arthritic condition in his elbow doesn't worry you a bit? What if his batting this season is worse because he'll never be the same hitter again?

 

I don't mean to position that as a certainty at all...but it is something that has to be considered here.

 

It actually does concern me somewhat-this trade is risky. If Izturis can just pull up his numbers somewhat though (.275, .324, .367), with his defense he'll be a pretty good shortstop. Not the best shortstop, but just as good as say the Cardinals have with Eckstein. Izturis proved for the year and a third before the injury that when healthy he can produce those numbers at least (he was actually doing better then that all that time) and if he is healthy again, then those numbers should be there. It all depends on his health.

[wade]

Man, I hope the optimistic people are right. I hope this turns out well for the ball club, I just don't see how it can.

 

If Cedeno's not playing second base in 2007, it'll probably be because Neifi is.

[C.C.]

All this talk reminds me of what Mets fans thought about Jose Reyes until this year...

 

Um, you're nuts. Mets fans have loved Reyes for a long time. But the only reason people think he is that good is because the other 7 spots in the lineup are great.

 

Umm...I have relatives that a major Mets fans and trust me last year he was not loved!

[goonys evil twin]

All this talk reminds me of what Mets fans thought about Jose Reyes until this year...

 

Um, you're nuts. Mets fans have loved Reyes for a long time. But the only reason people think he is that good is because the other 7 spots in the lineup are great.

 

Umm...I have relatives that a major Mets fans and trust me last year he was not loved!

 

Um, I live and work around thousands of Mets fans and trust me, last year he was loved.

[GlassCow]

I was appalled to see that Hendry prided himself on this move, and felt that Izturis was one of the NL's finest shortstops prior to his injury. I wasn't shocked, given his recent history of doing completely idiotic things to ruin my life. However, I'm both shocked and appallled that there are Cubs fans actually praising this move.

[thedaymen]

All this talk reminds me of what Mets fans thought about Jose Reyes until this year...

 

Um, you're nuts. Mets fans have loved Reyes for a long time. But the only reason people think he is that good is because the other 7 spots in the lineup are great.

 

Umm...I have relatives that a major Mets fans and trust me last year he was not loved!

 

Um, I live and work around thousands of Mets fans and trust me, last year he was loved.

 

I go to 15-20 Mets games a year. Have a wife who's an independent contractor for the Mets and Reyes has been loved by the vast majority of Mets fans since before his long stint on the DL.

 

I'm sure there were some people that were iffy on his weird running style or initially erratic play at second; but he was certainly a fan favorite on some of those bad Mets teams we saw before last season.

[cubfan1955]

Man if the Mets would like to trade Reyes to us for Izturis where do I sign?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It actually does concern me somewhat-this trade is risky. If Izturis can just pull up his numbers somewhat though (.275, .324, .367), with his defense he'll be a pretty good shortstop. Not the best shortstop, but just as good as say the Cardinals have with Eckstein. Izturis proved for the year and a third before the injury that when healthy he can produce those numbers at least (he was actually doing better then that all that time) and if he is healthy again, then those numbers should be there. It all depends on his health.

 

Even if Izturis brings his numbers up to those levels, he'll still easily be out-produced by Eckstein. That is not a good comparison.

[abuck1220]

Neyer's take:

 

Kevin (Manassas): Great trade for Jim Hendry and the Cubs. I hate to see Maddux leave, but to get Cesar Izturis in return, what a steal. He is a gold glove shortstop, and can hit second behind Pierre, and they can move Cedeno to second base, and hopefully we will not have to see Neifi Perez anymore.

 

SportsNation Rob Neyer: (12:10 PM ET ) Yes. That .302 on-base percentage should slot in the No. 2 spot quite nicely.

 

i love that the guy doesn't like neifi but he loves izturis...because they're such different players.

[abuck1220]

it's no surprise that hendry continues to peddle this crap about how so and so won a gold glove or how so and so was the 5th best hitter with RISP among guys that struck out 100 times or how so and so was the best hitter on earth from june 6-june 10 in 1997. because some people actually buy into it. amazing, really.

[Mizzou]

Brad Penny currently wears #31 for the Dodgers... I would hope that he'd give it up to Maddux.

[C.C.]

All this talk reminds me of what Mets fans thought about Jose Reyes until this year...

 

Um, you're nuts. Mets fans have loved Reyes for a long time. But the only reason people think he is that good is because the other 7 spots in the lineup are great.

 

Umm...I have relatives that a major Mets fans and trust me last year he was not loved!

 

Um, I live and work around thousands of Mets fans and trust me, last year he was loved.

 

Um, Okay...Whatever you say...Last thing I want to do today is argue over the love Mets show or don't show for Reyes. How stupid is that?

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Goony is really a Mets fan.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

All this talk reminds me of what Mets fans thought about Jose Reyes until this year...

 

Umm...I have relatives that a major Mets fans and trust me last year he was not loved!

 

Um, Okay...Whatever you say...Last thing I want to do today is argue over the love Mets show or don't show for Reyes. How stupid is that?

 

Yes, silly indeed.

[wade]

Goony is really a Mets fan.

 

I thought he loved Jeter.