Maddux and $$$ to the Dodgers for Cesar Izturis

[C.C.]

And we're stuck with him next year too!!! Great trade Hendry, you idiot.

 

And probably the year after that...

 

Izturis has to be thrilled. He's almost guaranteed to have his club option picked up for '08, when there is no chance the Dodgers would have taken it.

 

Yes there was. The Dodgers loved him.

 

 

they loved him so much they completely squeezed him out of their infield plans for this season by acquiring mueller and furcal.

 

Do me a favor and talk to some Dodgers fans. Look at their forums. They love Iz! They think it's a terrible trade getting rid of him. I think all these negative posters will turn around once they see him play on a daily basis.

[Caryatid]

And we're stuck with him next year too!!! Great trade Hendry, you idiot.

 

And probably the year after that...

 

Izturis has to be thrilled. He's almost guaranteed to have his club option picked up for '08, when there is no chance the Dodgers would have taken it.

 

Yes there was. The Dodgers loved him.

 

 

they loved him so much they completely squeezed him out of their infield plans for this season by acquiring mueller and furcal.

 

Do me a favor and talk to some Dodgers fans. Look at their forums. They love Iz! They think it's a terrible trade getting rid of him. I think all these negative posters will turn around once they see him play on a daily basis.

 

I know I can't wait to fall in love with a sub .300 OBP hitting in the 2 slot. I'm going to love us not scoring runs. I'm going to love people whining about how "Ramirez doesn't drive in enough runs" or some load of garbage like that because the guy can't get on base. But I guess all will be forgiven because he makes a nice play once a game.

[cheapseats]

Do me a favor and talk to some Dodgers fans. Look at their forums. They love Iz! They think it's a terrible trade getting rid of him. I think all these negative posters will turn around once they see him play on a daily basis.

 

Do me a favor. Come back in a year and a half and we'll see how it all worked out.

 

Izturis would be fine playing SS on the Red Sox or 2nd on the Yankees. According to PECOTA's projections, he'll probably add about 3 wins above a replacement player next year, and he'll do it with his glove as his bat is a liability.

 

However, the Cubs are already the 5th best defensive team in the league, and they're one of the three worst offensive teams in baseball (you could make the argument that they're the worst). Izturis helps the defense - which is already quite good - a little bit, but he will hurt the offense that is already wretched.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Do me a favor and talk to some Dodgers fans. Look at their forums. They love Iz! They think it's a terrible trade getting rid of him. I think all these negative posters will turn around once they see him play on a daily basis.

 

People loved Augie Ojeda too. This isn't a popularity contest -- crappy players are crappy players.

[C.C.]

Do me a favor. Come back in a year and a half and we'll see how it all worked out.

 

Not a problem...At least give the guy the rest of the year and see what we have. He's only 26 years old.

Edited August 1, 2006 by C.C.

[goonys evil twin]

Do me a favor and talk to some Dodgers fans. Look at their forums. They love Iz! They think it's a terrible trade getting rid of him. I think all these negative posters will turn around once they see him play on a daily basis.

 

I thought you were kidding before. But you actually think this?

 

I don't care what Dodgers fans think. They are probably the same type of fans that think the White Sox won with small ball last year. They're just lapping up the rhetoric coming from Lasorda. Izturis sucks. He's exactly the type of player that has been holding the Cubs back. The Cubs need massive offensive improvement, and starting pitching. They do not need another all glove no stick middle infielder. Lots of people want to claim you don't need production out of the middle infield (as if this is still 1987), but all the good teams are getting something out of one of their middle infielder positions, if not both. And if they aren't getting great OPS, they are at least getting servicable OBP, not the sub .300 crap the Cubs are content to go to work with.

[C.C.]

Do me a favor and talk to some Dodgers fans. Look at their forums. They love Iz! They think it's a terrible trade getting rid of him. I think all these negative posters will turn around once they see him play on a daily basis.

 

I thought you were kidding before. But you actually think this?

 

I don't care what Dodgers fans think. They are probably the same type of fans that think the White Sox won with small ball last year. They're just lapping up the rhetoric coming from Lasorda. Izturis sucks. He's exactly the type of player that has been holding the Cubs back. The Cubs need massive offensive improvement, and starting pitching. They do not need another all glove no stick middle infielder. Lots of people want to claim you don't need production out of the middle infield (as if this is still 1987), but all the good teams are getting something out of one of their middle infielder positions, if not both. And if they aren't getting great OPS, they are at least getting servicable OBP, not the sub .300 crap the Cubs are content to go to work with.

 

I'm sticking with this trade. I like this trade...I really do. What do you expect for Maddux? I mean it can't hurt to see what he does for the rest of this wasted year...

[Wheelimus]

It isn't that a team cannot win with Cesar Izturis as their starting shortstop.

 

If this were our team

 

1B - Derrek Lee

2B - Chase Utley

SS - Cesar Itzuris

3B - Aramis Ramirez

RF - Manny Ramirez

CF - Carlos Beltran

LF - Adam Dunn

C - Michael Barrett

 

Then, sure, we would be perfectly fine with our gold glove shortstop.

 

The problem is, with our team as it is currently constructed and likely to be constructed next season based on the free agent market, we just can't afford the dead bat in the lineup.

 

I mean, if we redo the team next year to the point that Cesar Itzuris is batting 8th and everyone ahead of him is a threat, then we'll be fine.

 

Does anyone expect that to happen? In fact, I'd put this as our best case scenario next season.

 

1B - Derrek Lee

2B - Alfonso Soriano (IF he agrees to go back to second, he may think he has more value as an outfielder. Anyway, he'll be expensive as hell

3B - Aramis Ramirez

SS - Cesar Itzuris

LF - Carlos Lee

CF - Juan Pierre

RF - Jacque Jones

C - Michael Barrett

 

Which, I'll admit, would probably get things done though I'm not sure who you put in the 2 hole (though I know who Dusty would :roll: ) and I think the odds of affording both Soriano and Carlos Lee would be pretty low.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm sticking with this trade. I like this trade...I really do. What do you expect for Maddux? I mean it can't hurt to see what he does for the rest of this wasted year...

 

It can hurt. Because he's signed through 2007, at least, and is really bad at what the Cubs need people to be really good at.

 

I would have taken nobody for Maddux over a deal like this. This hurts the team. I'd have taken a C prospect who doesn't even affect the organization.

[goonys evil twin]

Does anyone expect that to happen? In fact, I'd put this as our best case scenario next season.

 

1B - Derrek Lee

2B - Alfonso Soriano (IF he agrees to go back to second, he may think he has more value as an outfielder. Anyway, he'll be expensive as hell

3B - Aramis Ramirez

SS - Cesar Itzuris

LF - Carlos Lee

CF - Juan Pierre

RF - Jacque Jones

C - Michael Barrett

 

Which, I'll admit, would probably get things done though I'm not sure who you put in the 2 hole (though I know who Dusty would :roll: ) and I think the odds of affording both Soriano and Carlos Lee would be pretty low.

 

There's no way in hell they can afford Soriano and Lee after resigning Pierre and Ramirez and paying Izturis.

 

You'll get a crap 2nd baseman and mediocre left fielder if you get anything at all. And an expensive ineffective innings eater.

[C.C.]

I'm sticking with this trade. I like this trade...I really do. What do you expect for Maddux? I mean it can't hurt to see what he does for the rest of this wasted year...

 

It can hurt. Because he's signed through 2007, at least, and is really bad at what the Cubs need people to be really good at.

 

I would have taken nobody for Maddux over a deal like this. This hurts the team. I'd have taken a C prospect who doesn't even affect the organization.

 

Who do you want to play SS next year?

[goonys evil twin]

I'm sticking with this trade. I like this trade...I really do. What do you expect for Maddux? I mean it can't hurt to see what he does for the rest of this wasted year...

 

It can hurt. Because he's signed through 2007, at least, and is really bad at what the Cubs need people to be really good at.

 

I would have taken nobody for Maddux over a deal like this. This hurts the team. I'd have taken a C prospect who doesn't even affect the organization.

 

Who did you want to play SS next year?

 

How do questions like this address the issue? Who else did you want to play? What else did you want for Maddux? If you are going to go with no production at SS, you might as well pay minimum wage (Cedeno) and spend money on other positions. If you are going to spend money on SS, you better get some production. Izturis is expensive and a drag on the offense. This offense can't afford anymore "contributors" who cannot get on base. Why is this so complicated for people?

[Wheelimus]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

[cubfan1955]

Does anyone expect that to happen? In fact, I'd put this as our best case scenario next season.

 

1B - Derrek Lee

2B - Alfonso Soriano (IF he agrees to go back to second, he may think he has more value as an outfielder. Anyway, he'll be expensive as hell

3B - Aramis Ramirez

SS - Cesar Itzuris

LF - Carlos Lee

CF - Juan Pierre

RF - Jacque Jones

C - Michael Barrett

 

Which, I'll admit, would probably get things done though I'm not sure who you put in the 2 hole (though I know who Dusty would :roll: ) and I think the odds of affording both Soriano and Carlos Lee would be pretty low.

 

There's no way in hell they can afford Soriano and Lee after resigning Pierre and Ramirez and paying Izturis.

 

You'll get a crap 2nd baseman and mediocre left fielder if you get anything at all. And an expensive ineffective innings eater.

And therein lies the problem because if they don't sign both Soriano and CLee there is no way they can contend.

[C.C.]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

THEY ARE THE SAME PLAYER

[goonys evil twin]

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

In comparison, yes. Same crap player, less expensive. In reality no, I wouldn't want Neifi, nor his clone Izturis, anywhere near that role.

[Caryatid]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

Abso-frickin-loutely.

 

Defense: Wash (both former GG winners, both actually very good on defense)

 

Offense: Perez has superior numbers, but probably a wash.

 

Cost: Perez

 

Looks simple to me.

[Tracer Bullet]

Neyer's take:

 

Kevin (Manassas): Great trade for Jim Hendry and the Cubs. I hate to see Maddux leave, but to get Cesar Izturis in return, what a steal. He is a gold glove shortstop, and can hit second behind Pierre, and they can move Cedeno to second base, and hopefully we will not have to see Neifi Perez anymore.

 

SportsNation Rob Neyer: (12:10 PM ET ) Yes. That .302 on-base percentage should slot in the No. 2 spot quite nicely.

[CubColtPacer]

I'm sticking with this trade. I like this trade...I really do. What do you expect for Maddux? I mean it can't hurt to see what he does for the rest of this wasted year...

 

It can hurt. Because he's signed through 2007, at least, and is really bad at what the Cubs need people to be really good at.

 

I would have taken nobody for Maddux over a deal like this. This hurts the team. I'd have taken a C prospect who doesn't even affect the organization.

 

Who did you want to play SS next year?

 

How do questions like this address the issue? Who else did you want to play? What else did you want for Maddux? If you are going to go with no production at SS, you might as well pay minimum wage (Cedeno) and spend money on other positions. If you are going to spend money on SS, you better get some production. Izturis is expensive and a drag on the offense. This offense can't afford anymore "contributors" who cannot get on base. Why is this so complicated for people?

 

Because the thought is that Izturis and Cedeno both cannot produce offensively, so that must mean they are the same. They are not. Izturis is better offensively and defensively by a pretty good margin. They both have upside still. Will it be enough to justify what is being paid? I don't know-maybe not. Izturis on the team is a definite upgrade from Cedeno at short though, and it's a pretty decent upgrade. If we put Cedeno at second next year, that will be our huge mistake that will be the biggest part in destroying the offense, because his bat is weaker than Izturis's.

[C.C.]

If you gave me the following option

 

1) Cesar Itzurtis, who will cost you four million dollars, eating up half of what you save by getting Maddux off the books

 

or

 

2) let Neifi Perez toil as your eigth hitter and put the full eight million from Maddux towards an upgrade at another position.

 

It's a no brainer. Same gold glove defense, Neifi is actually the better hitter.

 

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

 

C'mon! You would be comfortable with Neifi Perez at SS instead of Itzurtis going into next year?

 

Abso-frickin-loutely.

 

Defense: Wash (both former GG winners, both actually very good on defense)

 

Offense: Perez has superior numbers, but probably a wash.

 

Cost: Perez

 

Looks simple to me.

 

Don't you think that Iz is a bit more upside to his career then Neifi? I mean you can't be serious?

[Tracer Bullet]

What do you expect for Maddux?

 

I'm going to assume you haven't read this entire thread, since there was quite a discussion about the fact that JH turned down several "top prospects" - including possibly Guzman or Kemp - either of which would have been a fantastic return for 2 months of Maddux.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Abso-frickin-loutely.

 

Defense: Wash (both former GG winners, both actually very good on defense)

 

Offense: Perez has superior numbers, but probably a wash.

 

Cost: Perez

 

Looks simple to me.

 

Don't you think that Iz is a bit more upside to his career then Neifi? I mean you can't be serious?

 

I'm pretty sure he is, as a large number of us feel the same way.

[C.C.]

What do you expect for Maddux?

 

I'm going to assume you haven't read this entire thread, since there was quite a discussion about the fact that JH turned down several "top prospects" - including possibly Guzman or Kemp - either of which would have been a fantastic return for 2 months of Maddux.

 

I read that also, but was that ever proven? I can't see Hendry turning down those prospects? Why would he?

[CubColtPacer]

I guess that since Izturis has 35 points better OBP that must mean Neifi is the better hitter-and this is an Izturis trying to come back from an injury.