Cubs reportedly in talks with Astros for Taveras

[stitchface]

Ichiro is 32, and his game is built entirely around speed, an ability that will soon be leaving him. He will cost more than his production in money and players as well. So you either are overpaying in players to have him for a short period before he's a FA, or you overpay in cash to extend him after you pay a healthy player cost to get him.

 

Players who's game is based on speed have been shown to age well. I think the fact that he is 32 is largely irrelevant as he will be a good player for 5 or 6 more years. I could definitely see Ichiro as part of a very good team.

[BigbadB]

I could definitely see Ichiro as part of a very good team.

 

And here is where this argument ends. The Cubs are not a very good team.

[treebird]

Ichiro is 32, and his game is built entirely around speed, an ability that will soon be leaving him. He will cost more than his production in money and players as well. So you either are overpaying in players to have him for a short period before he's a FA, or you overpay in cash to extend him after you pay a healthy player cost to get him.

 

Players who's game is based on speed have been shown to age well. I think the fact that he is 32 is largely irrelevant as he will be a good player for 5 or 6 more years. I could definitely see Ichiro as part of a very good team.

 

I think it's generally thought that players who are well-rounded age well, not so much players who are based on speed. Ichiro minus a step or two will likely mean a 30+ point drop in batting average, at which time there's absolutely no way he's not going to be much overpaid.

[TruffleShuffle]

YES more fast guys who can't get on base. BRILLIANT!

[oldcubsfan]

I can't remember if this was discussed or not. I seem to remember reading a post in regards to the Cubs obtaining Willy Taveras, but I think that was just an idea that a poster gave as an option.

 

Anyways it seems that the Cubs have shown atleast enough interest in CF Willy Taveras to speak with the Astros.

 

The Astros are shopping singles-hitting center fielder Willy Taveras, with the Cubs and Marlins among teams talking to them. Houston is looking for bullpen help, so Scott Williamson is a possibility from the Cubs

 

Near the end of the article, the availability of Ichiro is briefly discussed. He will be available after next season and it seems that he will explore free agency. I wonder if Seattle will consider trading him this off season if they feel they are going to lose him after the 2007 season.

 

 

It's just more made up BS from Phil Rogers. This guy is high. Please name one story he's ever broken.

[CuseCubFan69]

I can't remember if this was discussed or not. I seem to remember reading a post in regards to the Cubs obtaining Willy Taveras, but I think that was just an idea that a poster gave as an option.

 

Anyways it seems that the Cubs have shown atleast enough interest in CF Willy Taveras to speak with the Astros.

 

The Astros are shopping singles-hitting center fielder Willy Taveras, with the Cubs and Marlins among teams talking to them. Houston is looking for bullpen help, so Scott Williamson is a possibility from the Cubs

 

Near the end of the article, the availability of Ichiro is briefly discussed. He will be available after next season and it seems that he will explore free agency. I wonder if Seattle will consider trading him this off season if they feel they are going to lose him after the 2007 season.

 

 

It's just more made up BS from Phil Rogers. This guy is high. Please name one story he's ever broken.

 

Didn't he break the how many licks does it take to finish a Tootsie Pop question?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Let's fire whoever even thought it was a remotely good idea to go after Taveras.

 

What he said.

[Fro]

Ichiro is 32, and his game is built entirely around speed, an ability that will soon be leaving him. He will cost more than his production in money and players as well. So you either are overpaying in players to have him for a short period before he's a FA, or you overpay in cash to extend him after you pay a healthy player cost to get him.

 

Did you even watch him when he moved down in the order in the WBC? He's got a complete game. He'll continue being a very good player.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Ichiro is 32, and his game is built entirely around speed, an ability that will soon be leaving him. He will cost more than his production in money and players as well. So you either are overpaying in players to have him for a short period before he's a FA, or you overpay in cash to extend him after you pay a healthy player cost to get him.

 

Did you even watch him when he moved down in the order in the WBC? He's got a complete game. He'll continue being a very good player.

 

The guy from Japan homered in how many games in a row too. A short set of games doesn't say anything about Ichiro being able to produce after losing a step. And even then, there's the matter of him costing too much in players, and then probably too much money to keep.

[stitchface]

the money and players argument isn't applicable - you explore the possibility. if it costs too much, you don't do it. Ichiro will be a valuable player - better than any outfielder on the cubs - for five or six more years.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Let's get back to this Ichiro thing.

 

Why, you expect the Cubs to even make an offer?

 

Why waste team talking about a player, when you KNOW in your heart the Cubs have no interests in. Meaning even if Ichiro is available, the Cubs ain't interested.

 

Willy Pierre

Juan Taverez

 

Makes me no never mind. I expect the Cubs to acquire SOMEBODY else with Taverez to make a deal worthwhile, I would love to take Brandon Backe off their hands.

 

why are you so sure the cubs aren't interested? He's fast, a great defender and bats leadoff - all things the cubs value.

 

How about the fact that Ichiro has a career .377 OBP, and the fact that the Cubs simply don't understand that getting on base is the object of the game. They would view Ichiro as a baseclogging, and instantly deem him "not a good fit."

 

I would love to have Ichiro, but with the current regime, he would be tremendously WASTED.

[abuck1220]

best 4x100 in baseball.

[imb]

Let's get back to this Ichiro thing.

 

Why, you expect the Cubs to even make an offer?

 

Why waste team talking about a player, when you KNOW in your heart the Cubs have no interests in. Meaning even if Ichiro is available, the Cubs ain't interested.

 

Willy Pierre

Juan Taverez

 

Makes me no never mind. I expect the Cubs to acquire SOMEBODY else with Taverez to make a deal worthwhile, I would love to take Brandon Backe off their hands.

 

why are you so sure the cubs aren't interested? He's fast, a great defender and bats leadoff - all things the cubs value.

 

How about the fact that Ichiro has a career .377 OBP, and the fact that the Cubs simply don't understand that getting on base is the object of the game. They would view Ichiro as a baseclogging, and instantly deem him "not a good fit."

 

I would love to have Ichiro, but with the current regime, he would be tremendously WASTED.

 

The quote was, "unless you can run, walks just clog up the bases for the guys who can".

 

Not that it matters cause it was a stupid quote, but everyone gets it wrong.

[Sammy Sofa]

SPEED.

 

 

 

DOESN'T.

 

 

 

SLUMP.

 

But can they catch the ball?

 

I'm with you all the way, Jimmy!

[UMFan83]

NICE Corey Patterson without the power. I love running backwards, don't you?

[jjgman21]

Let's get back to this Ichiro thing.

 

Why, you expect the Cubs to even make an offer?

 

Why waste team talking about a player, when you KNOW in your heart the Cubs have no interests in. Meaning even if Ichiro is available, the Cubs ain't interested.

 

Willy Pierre

Juan Taverez

 

Makes me no never mind. I expect the Cubs to acquire SOMEBODY else with Taverez to make a deal worthwhile, I would love to take Brandon Backe off their hands.

 

why are you so sure the cubs aren't interested? He's fast, a great defender and bats leadoff - all things the cubs value.

 

How about the fact that Ichiro has a career .377 OBP, and the fact that the Cubs simply don't understand that getting on base is the object of the game. They would view Ichiro as a baseclogging, and instantly deem him "not a good fit."

 

I would love to have Ichiro, but with the current regime, he would be tremendously WASTED.

 

I think the 'Hendry doesn't value obp' argument goes way too far, as exemplified by this post and the unnecessary large font.

 

what I think Hendry undervalues is walks. a .380 obp achieved through a .350 average is just the type of player Hendry would like.

 

further, a bit of evidence that Hendry is coming around to the value of walks can be seen by the players he has acquired in the giveaway trades the past couple years. Moore, Fontenot, Lewis. these are all guys that will take their walks.

 

I think, at least I hope, he's coming around, but not willing to admit his prior stance was a mistake.

 

not that I would advocate getting Ichiro because I think the players and pay it would take to get/keep him would be too hight for a guy with little slugging. much less could get DeJesus from KC.

[goonys evil twin]

I think the 'Hendry doesn't value obp' argument goes way too far, as exemplified by this post and the unnecessary large font.

 

what I think Hendry undervalues is walks. a .380 obp achieved through a .350 average is just the type of player Hendry would like.

 

further, a bit of evidence that Hendry is coming around to the value of walks can be seen by the players he has acquired in the giveaway trades the past couple years. Moore, Fontenot, Lewis. these are all guys that will take their walks.

 

I think, at least I hope, he's coming around, but not willing to admit his prior stance was a mistake.

 

not that I would advocate getting Ichiro because I think the players and pay it would take to get/keep him would be too hight for a guy with little slugging. much less could get DeJesus from KC.

 

You make a good point with some of the lesser tier players he's acquired. But the fact remains, the minor league teams and big league rosters are dominated by guys who do not walk. This problem has gotten worse under Hendry's watch. So the notion that a couple trades where he got a patient guy indicates he's coming around on the walks issue just don't hold up.

[jjgman21]

I think the 'Hendry doesn't value obp' argument goes way too far, as exemplified by this post and the unnecessary large font.

 

what I think Hendry undervalues is walks. a .380 obp achieved through a .350 average is just the type of player Hendry would like.

 

further, a bit of evidence that Hendry is coming around to the value of walks can be seen by the players he has acquired in the giveaway trades the past couple years. Moore, Fontenot, Lewis. these are all guys that will take their walks.

 

I think, at least I hope, he's coming around, but not willing to admit his prior stance was a mistake.

 

not that I would advocate getting Ichiro because I think the players and pay it would take to get/keep him would be too hight for a guy with little slugging. much less could get DeJesus from KC.

 

You make a good point with some of the lesser tier players he's acquired. But the fact remains, the minor league teams and big league rosters are dominated by guys who do not walk. This problem has gotten worse under Hendry's watch. So the notion that a couple trades where he got a patient guy indicates he's coming around on the walks issue just don't hold up.

 

well there's also the acquisition and quick assention of Murton, the signing of Lee, the better discipline of Barrett, some of the draft picks he's made, getting the Blue Jays ex-draft manager. not a water tight case, but certainly enough evidence to discount the "Hendry doesn't value walks" argument.

[goonys evil twin]

well there's also the acquisition and quick assention of Murton, the signing of Lee, the better discipline of Barrett, some of the draft picks he's made, getting the Blue Jays ex-draft manager. not a water tight case, but certainly enough evidence to discount the "Hendry doesn't value walks" argument.

 

I don't see what the Blue Jays ex-draft guy has to do with appreciating walks. That organization turned more sabr-centric when he wasn't there.

 

You can point out little individual reasons why you think it's not true, but the big picture suggests otherwise. They are last in walks, by a wide margin, and the organization is dominated by overly aggressive hackers. There just is not enough to support the notion that he's coming along. Maybe he values walks to some extent, but the evidence shows he values them less than any other organization in the league. And that's what matters.

[jjgman21]

well there's also the acquisition and quick assention of Murton, the signing of Lee, the better discipline of Barrett, some of the draft picks he's made, getting the Blue Jays ex-draft manager. not a water tight case, but certainly enough evidence to discount the "Hendry doesn't value walks" argument.

 

I don't see what the Blue Jays ex-draft guy has to do with appreciating walks. That organization turned more sabr-centric when he wasn't there.

 

You can point out little individual reasons why you think it's not true, but the big picture suggests otherwise. They are last in walks, by a wide margin, and the organization is dominated by overly aggressive hackers. There just is not enough to support the notion that he's coming along. Maybe he values walks to some extent, but the evidence shows he values them less than any other organization in the league. And that's what matters.

 

the Blue Jays ex-draft guy is relevant because of the good discipline and walk rates of the hitters he drafted. the big picture does suggest otherwise Hendry has not valued walks in the past. that is why I suggested that Hendry is coming around, not that he valued walks all along. my point is not that Hendry absolutely, without a doubt values walks. my point is there is evidence that he's gaining a greater appreciation for walks. the fact that evidence has not shown up tangibly in the lineup to this point is really not material. further, 5/8 of the lineup that should be out there day in/day out are historically pretty good or vastly improved at taking walks. not great, but pretty good (Walker, Lee, Aram, Barrett, Murton).

[goonys evil twin]

the Blue Jays ex-draft guy is relevant because of the good discipline and walk rates of the hitters he drafted. the big picture does suggest otherwise Hendry has not valued walks in the past. that is why I suggested that Hendry is coming around, not that he valued walks all along. my point is not that Hendry absolutely, without a doubt values walks. my point is there is evidence that he's gaining a greater appreciation for walks. the fact that evidence has not shown up tangibly in the lineup to this point is really not material. further, 5/8 of the lineup that should be out there day in/day out are historically pretty good or vastly improved at taking walks. not great, but pretty good (Walker, Lee, Aram, Barrett, Murton).

 

I don't think any of these signs is any stronger of an indication than when he picked up Mark Bellhorn. The team has regressed in the walks department, so I just can't share your faith that he's changed at all. He insists on claiming clutch hitting, speed and ball catching ability, along with young pitchers just not doing their job, are the reasons why this team has struggled. He just hasn't shown any interest in significantly altering this team's walk related deficiencies.

[jjgman21]

 

I don't think any of these signs is any stronger of an indication than when he picked up Mark Bellhorn.

 

one player does not make a trend. I am looking for a trend. I do not have definitive proof of said trend, just a few pieces of evidence. those few pieces of evidence, in my mind, are enough to defeat the notion that "Hendry currently does not value walks" is a fact that can be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

 

furthermore, you don't believe Hendry when he says anything about injuries to the Cubs players, why do you believe him when he says "we like guys who can catch the ball" or other things like that? both are in the same catagory, half truths meant to preserve the image of the organization as a whole in order to continue generating revenue by not upsetting the fan base. the last thing you should use as evidence of Hendry's mindset are the things he says.

[imb]

well there's also the acquisition and quick assention of Murton, the signing of Lee, the better discipline of Barrett, some of the draft picks he's made, getting the Blue Jays ex-draft manager. not a water tight case, but certainly enough evidence to discount the "Hendry doesn't value walks" argument.

 

I don't see what the Blue Jays ex-draft guy has to do with appreciating walks. That organization turned more sabr-centric when he wasn't there.

 

You can point out little individual reasons why you think it's not true, but the big picture suggests otherwise. They are last in walks, by a wide margin, and the organization is dominated by overly aggressive hackers. There just is not enough to support the notion that he's coming along. Maybe he values walks to some extent, but the evidence shows he values them less than any other organization in the league. And that's what matters.

 

the Blue Jays ex-draft guy is relevant because of the good discipline and walk rates of the hitters he drafted. the big picture does suggest otherwise Hendry has not valued walks in the past. that is why I suggested that Hendry is coming around, not that he valued walks all along. my point is not that Hendry absolutely, without a doubt values walks. my point is there is evidence that he's gaining a greater appreciation for walks. the fact that evidence has not shown up tangibly in the lineup to this point is really not material. further, 5/8 of the lineup that should be out there day in/day out are historically pretty good or vastly improved at taking walks. not great, but pretty good (Walker, Lee, Aram, Barrett, Murton).

 

Who has Wilken drafted that has great plate patience? Rios? Wells? Both are allergic to walks (Wells less so).

[goonys evil twin]

furthermore, you don't believe Hendry when he says anything about injuries to the Cubs players, why do you believe him when he says "we like guys who can catch the ball" or other things like that? both are in the same catagory, half truths meant to preserve the image of the organization as a whole in order to continue generating revenue by not upsetting the fan base. the last thing you should use as evidence of Hendry's mindset are the things he says.

 

I have trouble believing Hendry when it comes to health because he has a poor track record of talking about health. I believe him when he says he wants guys who can catch the ball because he completely ignored offensive production and tried to field a team that could win the sprint game and catch everything. I'm not saying he successfully did that, he just tried.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think the 'Hendry doesn't value obp' argument goes way too far, as exemplified by this post and the unnecessary large font.

 

what I think Hendry undervalues is walks. a .380 obp achieved through a .350 average is just the type of player Hendry would like.

 

further, a bit of evidence that Hendry is coming around to the value of walks can be seen by the players he has acquired in the giveaway trades the past couple years. Moore, Fontenot, Lewis. these are all guys that will take their walks.

 

I think, at least I hope, he's coming around, but not willing to admit his prior stance was a mistake.

 

not that I would advocate getting Ichiro because I think the players and pay it would take to get/keep him would be too hight for a guy with little slugging. much less could get DeJesus from KC.

 

You make a good point with some of the lesser tier players he's acquired. But the fact remains, the minor league teams and big league rosters are dominated by guys who do not walk. This problem has gotten worse under Hendry's watch. So the notion that a couple trades where he got a patient guy indicates he's coming around on the walks issue just don't hold up.

 

well there's also the acquisition and quick assention of Murton, the signing of Lee, the better discipline of Barrett, some of the draft picks he's made, getting the Blue Jays ex-draft manager. not a water tight case, but certainly enough evidence to discount the "Hendry doesn't value walks" argument.

 

I think Murton's assention was a result of his high BA and not his patience. While many of us noticed the plate discipline, I think Hendry noted that he carried a 400 BA well into the season at West Tenn.

 

Barrett's plate discipline is more a result of his maturation into a better hitter. I don't think Hendry noticed OBP as he did the "tools" Barrett has had as a part of his reputation since he was a first round pick back in 1995.

 

Hiring the Blue Jays draft manager was likely made because of Wilken's reputation for drafting first rounders who've made the majors moreso than any philosophy of walks.

 

Yes, there are some hitters on the Cubs who've been good at getting on-base, but I think it was other skills that made Hendry target those guys rather than their patience or OBP. I don't think either of those skills is something Hendry values.