The manager vs the world

[Sosa21MVP]

If my rant duplicates another thread, feel free to act accordingly and merger or purge.

 

I see people wanting Dusty run out of town on a rail. Look, a lot of times I share the feeling. But honestly, what the heck difference does the manager really make? I've made my case in a few other threads, I know. I hardly post here so I don't necessarily expect people to care all that much what I think. After all, I'm just another fan who pretends to have answers. But I like to think my answers ring true somewhat.

 

How much control does a manager truly have in terms of wins and losses? Riddle me this, would any manager past or present turn the Pirates or Royals into contenders?

 

Um, no.

 

Now how about them Cubbies? Well we started the year with oh, two proven starters. Maddux and Zambrano. We tried plugging the holes with Jerome Williams, Glendon Rusch and Sean Marshall. Well we all know how that worked. Williams pitched himself into the minors. Rusch pitched himself into the bullpen. So now we have Rich Hill and Angel Guzman joining Sean Marshall in our 3/5 rookie starting rotation.

 

As far as the everday lineup, we have one OF who has consistently hit the ball in Matt Murton. Pierre and Jones have struggled to high heaven. Our offensive MVP DLee is hurt. Our 2nd best hitter Aram has been in a slump. Todd Walker is forced to play out of position and has slumped. Cedeno has been a beacon of light in the darkness for the most part. Barrett can hit, we know that.

 

So we have a depleted starting rotation and an everday lineup populated by a lot of struggling hitters.

 

So.....should it be such a shock the Cubs stand at 15-19? I'm not even a Dusty apologist but what freaking manager would do much better with this wreck of a team????

 

I've never felt the manager made much difference. Either you have players or you don't. Hell, the Diamondbacks made a freaking broadcaster the manager and won it all. And even at that, Bob Brenly took plenty heat until his team won it all. And now he annouces for us.

 

Did Joe Torre get a brain transplant between St Louis and New York?

 

A manager generally is only as good as his personnel. Now, I know good and well you folks can come up with a multitude of issues with Dusty. Okay, but we still don't have the players. And people can always have issues with the manager. There are folks in St Louis who want LaRussa out. Torre is always on the hot seat despite however many titles he won in New York.

 

To me, it gets down to one thing. If the Cubs are running the organization properly from top to bottom then the manager should not matter much at all. But human nature is to throw the manager/coach under the bus. It never fails. Grass is always greener on the other side and so forth.

 

I'm telling you, we can fire Dusty Baker today and it isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in the long-term without other changes.

 

All I suggest is take a step back and look at more than the manager. If you have followed the Cubs for any length of time, I think you realize changing captains is about as effective as re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

And for the cynics, I have no love for Dusty clouding my judgment. I just see things for what they are. And the freaking manager isn't the problem here. Management perhaps.

 

Thus ends my rant. Make of it what you will. They can fire Dusty tomorrow but that isn't solving anything if that is the only move.

 

Sincerely,

 

A Cubs fan who cares

[neely crenshaw]

i agree..i once again really pissed at the garbage that hendry has served up...we do not deserve this

[USSoccer]

Sigh.

 

Dusty asked for these types of players. Guys with speed. Guys who could "catch the ball". As a result, we have a leadoff hitter who's not had a good OBP in 3 seasons, a RF who is a terrible baseball player-Corey Patterson without the upside-who we're stuck with for 3 seasons and $16m because our GM overbid against himself. We have Neifi and his $5m contract thru 2007. We pointlessly resigned Rusch. We TRADED for Freddie Bynum, who's worse than Jose Macias.

 

Furthermore, just because the roster that was fatally flawed to start with lost Lee doesn't mean Baker should have to be held accountable for his terrible in-game management that takes what slim chances we have to compete and dynamites them to nothing. He consistently overmanages, doesn't put his players in the proper positions to succeed, and occassionally now is reverting back to the 2005-eque baffling lineups where John Mabry bats 5th ahead of 2 of our best hitters.

 

Baker is just as responsible. He's a bad manager. He isn't a good motivator, he is a pathetic strategist, can't handle a pitching staff, is at least half responsible for the frightening overuse of the 2 players everyone blames for always being hurt, and makes a steady stream of excuses for his own actions and the mental lapses of the players he wanted brought in

 

Hendry and Dusty are equally to blame for this. Both should go, but one got an extenstion. The other can be easily rid of.

[soapy]

 

Furthermore, just because the roster that was fatally flawed to start with lost Lee doesn't mean Baker should have to be held accountable for his terrible in-game management that takes what slim chances we have to compete and dynamites them to nothing. He consistently overmanages, doesn't put his players in the proper positions to succeed, and occassionally now is reverting back to the 2005-eque baffling lineups where John Mabry bats 5th ahead of 2 of our best hitters.

 

This best sums up my feelings on the matter. Look, people don't want Dusty fired purely because of 2006 (which, by the way, has been stated repeatedly; same with Jones, Pierre, etc). He's been a poor manager since he got to Chicago. The poor talent this year (largely Jim Hendry's fault) doesn't absolve Baker from his failings in the 2003 NLCS, 2004 and 2005. People really need to stop making excuses for him.

 

I do tend to agree with the original point that managers don't seem to have a great impact on a team's success in MLB. Certainly, this team is just not talented. But Baker often doesn't put his team in the best position to succeed. Would batting Murton 5th and Mabry 8th made a big difference in yesterday's game (in hind sight)? No. That doesn't make it the right decision.

[J.R.]

Firing Baker likely wouldn't fix the team, but it would relieve at least some of the fans' misery.

 

We can't get rid of Jones, Neifi, Pierre, etc. ... but we can get rid of the embarrassment at the front of the bench.

[RynoRules]

Firing Baker likely wouldn't fix the team, but it would relieve at least some of the fans' misery.

 

We can't get rid of Jones, Neifi, Pierre, etc. ... but we can get rid of the embarrassment at the front of the bench.

 

Well said.

[badgercub]

Bringing in a new manager might not improve the talent, but it might improve the fundamentals, and if they bring in a new hitting coach, he may be able to help some of these guys break out of their slumps. If we could at least see mistake free baseball it would ease the pain a little bit, but that will never happen under Dusty Baker and his carefree attitiude, Dude.

[rynefan]

I do agree that firing Dusty is not a magic pill for the nightmare that is the 2006 Chicago Cubs. BUT... the manager does set a tone for the team. This team is LOST. I think Dusty needs to step up and at least give it his best shot, and I don't always feel like he is. I am tired of hearing about the players taking blame. Get over it! FIRE UP AND PLAY BALL! This is it... the be all and the end all of baseball... the BIGS!! Ditch the excuses, use what ya got and at least play the fundamentals... hit the cutoff, quit bobbling balls, don't get picked off, etc. Dusty needs to remind them of who they are, where they are and at least show us fans that he REALLY IS DOING ALL HE CAN WITH WHAT HE'S GOT. I think the fact that there are so many threads about this topic shows that we are not sure that he's taken the reins.

 

I don't know... I'm just a FRUSTRATED CUBS FAN not looking forward to this long, long season......

[BigbadB]

I don't want Dusty fired. I want MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty and all of his coaches (except maybe Speier) fired.

 

It's not all Dusty's fault by a long shot. But, he's definitely part of the problem.

 

A new manager probably won't do any better with this team. But, there have been managers who have. We need a manager who will not reward poor fundamentals.

 

Firing people makes a statement to the players and the fans that losing is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

[Scott G. F.]

I don't want Dusty fired. I want MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty and all of his coaches (except maybe Speier) fired.

 

It's not all Dusty's fault by a long shot. But, he's definitely part of the problem.

 

A new manager probably won't do any better with this team. But, there have been managers who have. We need a manager who will not reward poor fundamentals.

 

Firing people makes a statement to the players and the fans that losing is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

 

 

Yeah! What he said!!

[Coach C]

The only thing I am worried about is the fact that the Cubs could potentionally give Baker another 2 year deal or something like that. Then the Cubs will go on to make excuses such as, "Well, Derrek Lee wasn't healthy" or along the lines like that.

[Magnetic Curses]

If my rant duplicates another thread, feel free to act accordingly and merger or purge.

 

I see people wanting Dusty run out of town on a rail. Look, a lot of times I share the feeling. But honestly, what the heck difference does the manager really make? I've made my case in a few other threads, I know. I hardly post here so I don't necessarily expect people to care all that much what I think. After all, I'm just another fan who pretends to have answers. But I like to think my answers ring true somewhat.

 

How much control does a manager truly have in terms of wins and losses? Riddle me this, would any manager past or present turn the Pirates or Royals into contenders?

 

Um, no.

 

Now how about them Cubbies? Well we started the year with oh, two proven starters. Maddux and Zambrano. We tried plugging the holes with Jerome Williams, Glendon Rusch and Sean Marshall. Well we all know how that worked. Williams pitched himself into the minors. Rusch pitched himself into the bullpen. So now we have Rich Hill and Angel Guzman joining Sean Marshall in our 3/5 rookie starting rotation.

 

As far as the everday lineup, we have one OF who has consistently hit the ball in Matt Murton. Pierre and Jones have struggled to high heaven. Our offensive MVP DLee is hurt. Our 2nd best hitter Aram has been in a slump. Todd Walker is forced to play out of position and has slumped. Cedeno has been a beacon of light in the darkness for the most part. Barrett can hit, we know that.

 

So we have a depleted starting rotation and an everday lineup populated by a lot of struggling hitters.

 

So.....should it be such a shock the Cubs stand at 15-19? I'm not even a Dusty apologist but what freaking manager would do much better with this wreck of a team????

 

I've never felt the manager made much difference. Either you have players or you don't. Hell, the Diamondbacks made a freaking broadcaster the manager and won it all. And even at that, Bob Brenly took plenty heat until his team won it all. And now he annouces for us.

 

Did Joe Torre get a brain transplant between St Louis and New York?

 

A manager generally is only as good as his personnel. Now, I know good and well you folks can come up with a multitude of issues with Dusty. Okay, but we still don't have the players. And people can always have issues with the manager. There are folks in St Louis who want LaRussa out. Torre is always on the hot seat despite however many titles he won in New York.

 

To me, it gets down to one thing. If the Cubs are running the organization properly from top to bottom then the manager should not matter much at all. But human nature is to throw the manager/coach under the bus. It never fails. Grass is always greener on the other side and so forth.

 

I'm telling you, we can fire Dusty Baker today and it isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in the long-term without other changes.

 

All I suggest is take a step back and look at more than the manager. If you have followed the Cubs for any length of time, I think you realize changing captains is about as effective as re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

And for the cynics, I have no love for Dusty clouding my judgment. I just see things for what they are. And the freaking manager isn't the problem here. Management perhaps.

 

Thus ends my rant. Make of it what you will. They can fire Dusty tomorrow but that isn't solving anything if that is the only move.

 

Sincerely,

 

A Cubs fan who cares

 

=D> =D> =D>

 

well put. i've been saying this for a while.

 

the best the cubs could do would be to find a czar for a GM, who, in turn, hires a puppet manager to apply organizational philosophy across the board at the ground level.

[stitchface]

I don't want Dusty fired. I want MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty and all of his coaches (except maybe Speier) fired.

 

It's not all Dusty's fault by a long shot. But, he's definitely part of the problem.

 

A new manager probably won't do any better with this team. But, there have been managers who have. We need a manager who will not reward poor fundamentals.

 

Firing people makes a statement to the players and the fans that losing is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

 

 

List of team's with similarly disappointing may record who fired the manager:

2000 Mets

2005 Astros

2003 Marlins

 

I may be off on the years but all of those teams were terrible in May, got a new manager, and ended up in the playoffs (Mets in WS and Marlins won WS). It can make a difference.

[Scott G. F.]

I don't want Dusty fired. I want MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty and all of his coaches (except maybe Speier) fired.

 

It's not all Dusty's fault by a long shot. But, he's definitely part of the problem.

 

A new manager probably won't do any better with this team. But, there have been managers who have. We need a manager who will not reward poor fundamentals.

 

Firing people makes a statement to the players and the fans that losing is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

 

Very good point. I believe that would be the case with the Cubs but I guess we'll never know. Wake we up when Dusty leaves please.

 

 

List of team's with similarly disappointing may record who fired the manager:

2000 Mets

2005 Astros

2003 Marlins

 

I may be off on the years but all of those teams were terrible in May, got a new manager, and ended up in the playoffs (Mets in WS and Marlins won WS). It can make a difference.

[Houston_Cub_Fan]

I think it was the 04 Astros, but point taken.

 

However, when this team continues to sign free agents as if it were a middle market team and not one of the most profitable franchises in baseball. And as long as the minors continue to fall short of expectations as a pipeline. This team will suck no matter the manager.

 

Still. Firing Dusty would fill my heart with joy.

[GlassCow]

Dusty should get a 20-year extension. At least then I would be able to quit watching this crap for a couple of decades and come back fresh. The good thing about retaining Baker is that as long as he is here, I will never have any kind of expectation of sniffing the postseason, so I'll never be too dissapointed.

[gflore34]

I can deal with the Cubs getting beat because the opponent is better but, I cannot accept pitchers failing to cover first base, runners getting doubled-off the bases on fly balls, outfielders missing the cut-off man - that is directly attributable to Dusty. Its obivious he doesn't stress fundamental play nor does he hold anyone accountable for the repeated mentals errors - he never will. Baker has got go and be replaced by someone who's going hold a player accountable for not hustling or stupid mistakes.

[Irrelevant Dude]

How much control does a manager truly have in terms of wins and losses? Riddle me this, would any manager past or present turn the Pirates or Royals into contenders?

If that's the case, then let's find someone to manage the team for $500,000/year and have an extra 4 million to spend on payroll. If the manager has little to no impact on wins and losses, then the Cubs sure are throwing their money away.

[scs_paradise]

How much control does a manager truly have in terms of wins and losses? Riddle me this, would any manager past or present turn the Pirates or Royals into contenders?

If that's the case, then let's find someone to manage the team for $500,000/year and have an extra 4 million to spend on payroll. If the manager has little to no impact on wins and losses, then the Cubs sure are throwing their money away.

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

 

I think the manager makes a huge difference. I know I've been on teams in consecutive years with two different managers, one year we sucked, one year we kicked tail. Same players, same attitudes, same opponents, different manager.

[stitchface]

How much control does a manager truly have in terms of wins and losses? Riddle me this, would any manager past or present turn the Pirates or Royals into contenders?

If that's the case, then let's find someone to manage the team for $500,000/year and have an extra 4 million to spend on payroll. If the manager has little to no impact on wins and losses, then the Cubs sure are throwing their money away.

 

Excellent idea. no manager is worth 4.5 million.

[XZero771679666304]

It has been said before, but if a manager is doing his job, he should be hardly noticed (unless you win 6 rings or 14 division titles like Torre and Cox). It is when a manager doesn't do his job that he sticks out.

 

Hendry has handicapped the team to a degree, but Baker has had his hand in the personnel decisions, we can be sure of that. And while the talent level is bad, it isn't losing 9 of 10 bad. The talent isn't great, but is sure isn't commensurate with the pitiful results.

 

Baker takes bad situations and makes them worse. Batting our best hitters in the bottom half of the lineup, batting guys like Patterson and Perez at the top instead of guys like Todd Walker. Making Hawkins the closer when the whole world knows he's a horrible closer, Holla as a full time LF, not plattoning Jones when Restovich was rotting on the bench, not using Remmy the right way, double switching poor defenders in during the opponents half of the inning, largely ignoring matchup stats and splits. Freddie Bynum. Jose Macias. Playing Perez over Cedeno last year when last year was over. Riding certain pitchers like horses while completely ignoring others, leaving some rusty and others exhausted.

 

It just goes on and on and on.

 

And that's not even mentioning the egregious lack of fundamental execution that we have seen over the past 3+ years: baserunning, pitchers not covering first, missed cutoff men, generally poor defensive evecution and decsion making....ill advised throws and flipping live balls to the ump like we saw today.

 

It is incumbant upon the manager and coaching staff to recognize and fix that sort of crap, but while Dusty is quick to ask for his "props", he is quicker to pass the buck on that stuff. Stuff like "Go ask Larry about that" and "I thought that is what the minors are for"...come on, what do you think that 5 million dollar paycheck you get is for?

 

Dusty never had to teach in SF, where he had a veritable parade of solid, productive veterans. We have guys like Cedeno, Murton, Pie, Guzman, Hill and Co. coming up now, with more to come in the future. ARam and Barrett are still learning too. Can we really afford this negligent attitude regarding the fundamentals of the game with so many youngsters here and on the way? Do we want what few good young position players we have reared in this coaching staff's swing-first-ask-no-questions-later-club-med-no-accountibility atmosphere?

 

Heck no.

 

If Dusty was doing all he could, that would be one thing. But he's not, he's making bad things worse.

 

Sure, firing Dusty won't intantly transform this team into division winners. But when the plane is going down, should you just ignore the dead weight, or throw it out and give yourself some kind of chance?

 

Firing the Hendry would be good, but just because that isn't going to happen doesn't mean Dusty needs to stay.

 

Lord knows something needs to happen.