Getting sick of Juan Pierre.

[rocket]

 

Pie would outperform Pierre now. I don't think Pie's the type of player that would be hurt by being pushed.

 

Over the course of a full season, I'm not convinced he would. Pie has good tools, but his minor league numbers, while good, aren't amazing, and certainly not worth rushing him to the majors over. Especially when he really needs to work on his plate discipline.

[RyCubsFan]

Pierre

3 walks

 

Pie

8 walks

 

Who needs to work on their plate discipline?

Edited April 26, 2006 by RyCubsFan

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pierre's spot is +36 in projected runs (119 in 2006 vs. 83 in 2005) and he is on a pace to finish 2nd in the Modern Era for Cubs in SBs (Chance had 67 in 1903, Pierre is on a pace for 60).

 

Oh noes!

 

 

Pierre's career high in runs is 108, and he did that with an OBP about 100 points higher than it is now. His number of runs(which is largely team dependent anyway) thus far is an anomaly.

[bhogg]

his low average is an anomoly, as well. .. . right?

 

his high strike out rate. . . .right?

[rocket]

That's great, though I never said Juan Pierre has amazing plate discipline.

 

I'd rather keep Pierre this year and let Pie develop another year in AAA than to bring Pie up and rush him when he isn't ready.

[RyCubsFan]

his low average is an anomoly, as well. .. . right?

 

Runs are a team stat, unless you hit home runs (which Pierre does not). Batting average is not. He's not scoring because he's so great. He's scoring because he has people hitting well after him. A player playing in place of Pierre with a higher OBP would have scored more runs than Pierre has so far.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

his low average is an anomoly, as well. .. . right?

 

his high strike out rate. . . .right?

 

Yes and yes. The question is how much are those going to rise from their current state.

[RyCubsFan]

That's great, though I never said Juan Pierre has amazing plate discipline.

 

I'd rather keep Pierre this year and let Pie develop another year in AAA than to bring Pie up and rush him when he isn't ready.

 

How do you know that bringing him up now would hurt his development? Sure, some players are hurt by being brought along too quickly (i.e. Patterson perhaps). Others, however, are not (i.e. Cabrera). I happen to feel that its worth a shot on Pie since I believe he's clearly better than 2/3 of our current OF. I don't think it will hurt him.

[Roast]

his low average is an anomoly, as well. .. . right?

 

Last year he didnt top .280 either, so not really.

 

His strikeouts most likely are, however. I dont think anyone has really argued that K's are a huge problem, rather that he just isnt getting on base in general.

[wolf stansson]

That's great, though I never said Juan Pierre has amazing plate discipline.

 

I'd rather keep Pierre this year and let Pie develop another year in AAA than to bring Pie up and rush him when he isn't ready.

How dare you spout that logic Rocket. How dare you.

 

What exactly do you guys think you'd do with Pierre if you brought Pie up? Bench him? Trade him? You gave up an awful lot to get a bench guy.

 

Pierre has sucked so far this year, and some people are having a hard time accepting that because he was supposed to be the missing piece. He is what he is: Someone who when he gets on base can create havoc but doesn't have any power so relies on mostly luck for his groundballs to find holes in the infield. If he swung harder early in the count, he might be able to generate more gap/outfield power (IE - Ichiro) thus increasing his obp by being more selective at what he swings at (pitches he can hit harder as opposed to slapping wood on the ball and grounding out).

[bhogg]

his low average is an anomoly, as well. .. . right?

 

his high strike out rate. . . .right?

 

Yes and yes. The question is how much are those going to rise from their current state.

 

 

 

From the sound of things, they are only going to get worse. . . . . . .the end of the world is upon us.

[rocket]

That's great, though I never said Juan Pierre has amazing plate discipline.

 

I'd rather keep Pierre this year and let Pie develop another year in AAA than to bring Pie up and rush him when he isn't ready.

 

How do you know that bringing him up now would hurt his development? Sure, some players are hurt by being brought along too quickly (i.e. Patterson perhaps). Others, however, are not (i.e. Cabrera). I happen to feel that its worth a shot on Pie since I believe he's clearly better than 2/3 of our current OF. I don't think it will hurt him.

 

I don't know if it would hurt his development. It's a risk not worth taking though, especially when people have overrated his minor league numbers. I'm not 100% sold on him immediately being a productive major league outfielder.

[goonys evil twin]

his low average is an anomoly, as well. .. . right?

 

his high strike out rate. . . .right?

 

Yes and yes. The question is how much are those going to rise from their current state.

 

 

 

From the sound of things, they are only going to get worse. . . . . . .the end of the world is upon us.

 

Nobody has suggested anything close. Why can't people point out that Pierre has been crap without people making wild accusations about their intentions and completely blowing out of proportion the statements that are being made. Pierre was mediocre last year. And he has been terrible this year. The Cubs need him to be good.

[RyCubsFan]

That's great, though I never said Juan Pierre has amazing plate discipline.

 

I'd rather keep Pierre this year and let Pie develop another year in AAA than to bring Pie up and rush him when he isn't ready.

 

How do you know that bringing him up now would hurt his development? Sure, some players are hurt by being brought along too quickly (i.e. Patterson perhaps). Others, however, are not (i.e. Cabrera). I happen to feel that its worth a shot on Pie since I believe he's clearly better than 2/3 of our current OF. I don't think it will hurt him.

 

I don't know if it would hurt his development. It's a risk not worth taking though, especially when people have overrated his minor league numbers. I'm not 100% sold on him immediately being a productive major league outfielder.

 

Just about every single person who has seen him play in the minors seems to be. I trust their opinion on the matter.

 

I think we've all been jaded a bit by the CPatt experience. But Pie is def not Corey Patterson.

[RyCubsFan]

his low average is an anomoly, as well. .. . right?

 

his high strike out rate. . . .right?

 

Yes and yes. The question is how much are those going to rise from their current state.

 

 

 

From the sound of things, they are only going to get worse. . . . . . .the end of the world is upon us.

 

 

Who's saying they're going to get worse?? I think most of us expect that JP will pick it up a bit. We do wonder, however, if he will pick it up enough to have justified the trade...

 

I'm hopeful...but doubtful.

[JC]

I've never been one to worry about turning Pie into Patterson simply by his path to the majors. While such handling may have some influence on his development, I don't think it is necessarily determinative. I look for a productive career from Pie.

 

Perhaps thats just Pie in the sky thinking...

[goonys evil twin]

Just about every single person who has seen him play in the minors seems to be. I trust their opinion on the matter.

 

I think we've all been jaded a bit by the CPatt experience. But Pie is def not Corey Patterson.

 

I don't think we can say for sure that he's definitely anything. He does have lots of similarities to Corey. Personally I don't want him up just yet, but I'm betting he could at least duplicate with the flying frenchmen have done so far. And I wouldn't be upset in the least if he did replace one of them tomorrow.

[wade]

I've never been one to worry about turning Pie into Patterson simply by his path to the majors. While such handling may have some influence on his development, I don't think it is necessarily determinative. I look for a productive career from Pie.

 

Perhaps thats just Pie in the sky thinking...

 

So, you cut your daily posts by a good percentage from last year, but still are able to lead the board in puns. That's clutch! :D

[JC]

I've never been one to worry about turning Pie into Patterson simply by his path to the majors. While such handling may have some influence on his development, I don't think it is necessarily determinative. I look for a productive career from Pie.

 

Perhaps thats just Pie in the sky thinking...

 

So, you cut your daily posts by a good percentage from last year, but still are able to lead the board in puns. That's clutch! :D

 

I know how you in particular were likely pining for them, so I thought I'd throw you a bone.:wink:

[badger1679666666]

I agree with Goony in this thread.

 

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[Irrelevant Dude]

The only player in the starting lineup with a lower OBP than Pierre is Jacque Jones. I don't think Pierre is the lead-off hitter he was made out to be, and I don't think Pie will be the answer either. What about a Cedeno-Murton 1-2 punch next year?

[nilodnayr]

From every position in the lineup, I look for at least a .350 OBP, an .800 OPS, and solid defense. That's a well balanced player.

 

Get ready for disappointment. Guess how many qualified CFs in MLB have these stats? 3- Vernon Wells, Curtis Granderson, and Corey Sullivan. ESPN

 

Players such as Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter, Jim Edmonds, and Johnny Damon all suck according to your standards. Hmmm...realistic standards?

 

 

Last year the following CF had an OBP above .350 and an .OPS above 800:

 

1) Edmonds .385 / .918

2) Griffey .369 / .946

3) Damon .366 / .805

4) Winn .360 / .859

5) DeJesus .359 / .804

 

Sizemore, Jones, and Crisp JUST missed an OBP of .350, but all put up OPS's greater than .800. Brady Clark had an OBP of .372, but his OPS was .798.

 

That's 9 CF's that were right about .350 / .800 or well above.

 

Pierre btw had a .326 OBP and a .680 OPS. That is horrible.

 

Off the top of my head Ryan Church, Milton Bradley, Jason Michaels, and JD Drew are guys who did it in 2005, but didnt play enough at center, even though they are fine fielders in that position. Mark Kotsay, Beltran, and Aaron Rowand did it in 2004. Dave Roberts and Mike Cameron almost did it last year. I'm sure there are a few more as well. But basically thats enough guys for over HALF of the teams in baseball to have a CF who meets the 350/800 criteria.

[nilodnayr]

I didn't want Pierre OR Pie in CF this year. It would have been best to use a guy who could either be traded, relegated to the bench, or used at another position, should Pie have a good first half. Crazy enough that guy was already on our roster and posted OBPs of 353, 378, 336, and 385 from 2003 thru 2006. Note his dip was the year he changed leagues. Yes, none other than JHJR. For comparison's sake Pierre's OBP over that time period are 361, 374, 326, 284.

[Sosa21MVP]

Hey, it's obvious the best alternative for the fans is to boo and bash players into the ground for having a slow start. You can't produce in April? BOOOOOOO! :roll:

 

Jinxes, goats, Bartman, etc. Sometimes I think most of our fanbase is just hunting for tragedy before it even happens.

 

Myself, let's see how the season unfolds. April at Wrigley is not very forgiving to some hitters and if you don't realize that then you have not been paying much attention the past 20 years at least. Heck, Derrick Lee had a SLOW start in 2004, I suppose folks were ready to boo him too.

 

I'd just like to see the day Cubs fans could stop acting like fatalistic drama actors and just roll with the everyday ups and downs of MLB baseball. Criticism is fine, we all need to view things critically but I think some folks just take it to the Nth degree way too soon. It's one thing to critically evaluate a player but to already be halfway inclined to ship him to China is a bit over the top.

 

Not that my opinion matters much, carry on. Just had to speak my piece.

[SeldomSeen]

I've never been one to worry about turning Pie into Patterson simply by his path to the majors. While such handling may have some influence on his development, I don't think it is necessarily determinative. I look for a productive career from Pie.

 

Perhaps thats just Pie in the sky thinking...

 

So, you cut your daily posts by a good percentage from last year, but still are able to lead the board in puns. That's clutch! :D

 

There is no such thing as clutch.

 

I'm not worried about Pie's progression because he'd be in the majors as much as that he'd be hitting at the top of the order. If there was a lesson to be learned from the Patterson experiment it's that guys with little plate discipline don't magically learn it by being put in front of the run producers. IF Felix was going to be brought up, I'd much rather have the luxury of dropping him in the order until he's comfortable, ie Murton and Cedeno. Unfortunately, if he was called on it would almost cerainly be out of necessity and we would need him to produce.

 

Hopefully Pierre will turn it around and Felix can stay at AAA until September.