Who are the greatest players ever?

[Mizzou]

But he pitched in the NL, so he got an extra 3 outs per start from the 9 hole. He also pitched most of those years in Turner Field, Shea Stadium, Pro Player, and the Vet. All of those are pitchers park.

 

Pedro pitched in a division with Yankee Stadium and Fenway, which both have short porches, and Camden Yards, which is a launch pad. Tropicana isn't a pitchers park, either, PLUS he had the DH to deal with.

 

And in response to your edit, overall, Maddux and Pedro are porbably 1 and 1a during the 1990s. I lean towards Pedro because of circumstance, and performance during his peak relative to Maddux's, but both were just awfully, awfully good.

 

I know ERA+ accounts for park factor, but does it account for leagues too? Even if not, the difference is still huge. Maddux has a 140 point edge in ERA+ in both 94 and 95. His edge in 96 was about 40 points. 97 and 98 each player had about a 30 point edge one year, so we can toss that out. Then in 99, Pedro had about a 120 point edge. I don't know if this is entirely illogical, but... through those years, that gives Maddux a cumulative edge of about 200 points in ERA+.

[Tim]

ERA+ does account for league.

[Roast]

I wonder why Ty Cobb gets so little love on these lists.

[USSoccer]

I wonder why Ty Cobb gets so little love on these lists.

 

he played in an era with like 5 teams. That's a negative strike in my book.

[Tim]

I wonder why Ty Cobb gets so little love on these lists.

I have a lot of respect for him. I just like the other guys better.

[BigbadB]

1. Cobb

2. Ruth

3. Williams

4. Aaron

5. Mays

[UK1679666180]

I wonder why Ty Cobb gets so little love on these lists.

 

Despite it being socially acceptable at the time, like Roger Hornsby, their views towards other races might play a role.

[Tim]

I also have a hard time when lists like these don't have anyone that played in the last 30 years (not to pick on you bbb). I think we tend to overestimate the historic figures of the game.

 

heck, I almost put Rickey in my top 5. If you ask Rickey, he'd surely put Rickey in the top 5. Heck, Rickey can still play and help some teams. Just ask Rickey.

[Roast]

I wonder why Ty Cobb gets so little love on these lists.

 

he played in an era with like 5 teams. That's a negative strike in my book.

 

He played in the same era as babe ruth...

 

So shouldnt that strike go against ruth too?

[UK1679666180]

The most talented hitter of all-time-Mickey Mantle.

 

The most talented pitcher of all-time-Nolan Ryan.

 

Each had their faults as far as why they did not become of all-time despite being the most talented.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I'll include defense and baserunning

 

 

1) Ruth

2) Bonds

3) Mays

4) Williams

5) Musial

 

 

1) Roger Clemens

2) Walter Johnson

3) Lefty Grove

4) Tom Seaver

5) Cy Young

[Tim]

The most talented hitter of all-time-Mickey Mantle.

 

The most talented pitcher of all-time-Nolan Ryan.

 

Each had their faults as far as why they did not become of all-time despite being the most talented.

I think Ryan had the best stuff of all time, but he didn't have the ability to control it all the time, which I think of as part of pitching talent.

 

I actually have four modern pitchers in my top 10 of all time in the following order:

 

Clemens

Unit

Maddux

Martinez

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Tim, no love for Seaver as a modern pitcher or he too old?

[OleMissCub]

I wonder why Ty Cobb gets so little love on these lists.

 

he played in an era with like 5 teams. That's a negative strike in my book.

 

He played in the same era as babe ruth...

 

So shouldnt that strike go against ruth too?

 

exactly, and it was 16 teams not 5 teams. A career .366 average and over 4,000 hits, 900+ steals, and five seasons of .400+ gets you on the top 5 list. He was the best pure hitter in history, plain and simple.

[Tim]

Tim, no love for Seaver as a modern pitcher or he too old?

Seaver's in the mix, too. I just didn't lump him in the same timeframe. As I think about it more, my top 10 may be more like top 12-13...

[UK1679666180]

The most talented hitter of all-time-Mickey Mantle.

 

The most talented pitcher of all-time-Nolan Ryan.

 

Each had their faults as far as why they did not become of all-time despite being the most talented.

I think Ryan had the best stuff of all time, but he didn't have the ability to control it all the time, which I think of as part of pitching talent.

 

I actually have four modern pitchers in my top 10 of all time in the following order:

 

Clemens

Unit

Maddux

Martinez

 

You might be right that should say stuff. Ryan does have the best stuff of all time. He went from a 100MPH FB, 12-6 curve, great change, later added a slider and splitter.

[dougdescenzo]

I also have a hard time when lists like these don't have anyone that played in the last 30 years (not to pick on you bbb). I think we tend to overestimate the historic figures of the game.

 

heck, I almost put Rickey in my top 5. If you ask Rickey, he'd surely put Rickey in the top 5. Heck, Rickey can still play and help some teams. Just ask Rickey.

 

Funny you say that as i was seriously close to putting Rickey at #5 on my list. The question was best offensive player and Rickey was the best baserunner of all time bar none, and baserunning is a very important part of the offense. He was also the best leadoff man ever but the only thing that kept him off my list was his low slg %.

[Tim]

I wonder why Ty Cobb gets so little love on these lists.

 

he played in an era with like 5 teams. That's a negative strike in my book.

 

He played in the same era as babe ruth...

 

So shouldnt that strike go against ruth too?

 

exactly, and it was 16 teams not 5 teams. A career .366 average and over 4,000 hits, 900+ steals, and five seasons of .400+ gets you on the top 5 list. He was the best pure hitter in history, plain and simple.

He played in an era where the league leading hitters were routinely above .380 because errors were rarely scored, players had teeny little mits, there were very few strikeout pitchers since pitches like sliders hadn't really been introduced yet, etc. A .366 average during that timeframe just isn't as impressive as if he were to do that in today's game.

[Tim]

The most talented hitter of all-time-Mickey Mantle.

 

The most talented pitcher of all-time-Nolan Ryan.

 

Each had their faults as far as why they did not become of all-time despite being the most talented.

I think Ryan had the best stuff of all time, but he didn't have the ability to control it all the time, which I think of as part of pitching talent.

 

I actually have four modern pitchers in my top 10 of all time in the following order:

 

Clemens

Unit

Maddux

Martinez

 

You might be right that should say stuff. Ryan does have the best stuff of all time. He went from a 100MPH FB, 12-6 curve, great change, later added a slider and splitter.

I'll nominate RJ's slider as the single most devastating pitch ever, though.

[UK1679666180]

Can I put Dalkowski's FB as the most devastating? :)

[Tim]

Can I put Dalkowski's FB as the most devastating? :)

Only if you're talking about backstops

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Hitters:

 

1. Ruth

2. Bonds

3. Williams

4. Aaron

5. Henderson

 

Pitchers:

1. Clemens

2. Pedro

3. Walter Johnson

4. Unit

5. Maddux

[Tim]

So who are the players in the game today (other than the really old guys like Bonds, Clemens & Maddux) that we'll be telling our grandkids about? This is just another way of asking who else might have a chance to crack these lists by the time the retire?

 

I'd say just two hitters have that chance right now: Pujols & ARod. And of the two, I think Pujols has the better chance to have a frightengly great career.

 

Much tougher to say with pitchers because so much depends on how well they hold up.

[USSoccer]

I wonder why Ty Cobb gets so little love on these lists.

 

he played in an era with like 5 teams. That's a negative strike in my book.

 

He played in the same era as babe ruth...

 

So shouldnt that strike go against ruth too?

 

exactly, and it was 16 teams not 5 teams. A career .366 average and over 4,000 hits, 900+ steals, and five seasons of .400+ gets you on the top 5 list. He was the best pure hitter in history, plain and simple.

He played in an era where the league leading hitters were routinely above .380 because errors were rarely scored, players had teeny little mits, there were very few strikeout pitchers since pitches like sliders hadn't really been introduced yet, etc. A .366 average during that timeframe just isn't as impressive as if he were to do that in today's game.

 

To me, it's a quality of competition issue. Ruth gets a pass because he hit and pitched, and had no equal at all in either respect during his era. However, I think if you put many of the historical greats in the modern game, they'd struggle.

[USSoccer]

So who are the players in the game today (other than the really old guys like Bonds, Clemens & Maddux) that we'll be telling our grandkids about? This is just another way of asking who else might have a chance to crack these lists by the time the retire?

 

I'd say just two hitters have that chance right now: Pujols & ARod. And of the two, I think Pujols has the better chance to have a frightengly great career.

 

Much tougher to say with pitchers because so much depends on how well they hold up.

 

Pujols, definetly. ARod, Manny Ramirez...I'll tell my kid about Sosa, too. Johan Santana.