2006 Lineup

[goonys evil twin]

Walker should bat 2nd but I really can't see Dusty going back to back with two left handed hitters. He wouldn't use to monster right handed bats back to back in Lee and Ramirez. I can't see the same situation at the top of the order being any different.

 

But he has used Lee and Ramirez back to back. And he used Sammy, Alou, Ramirez and Lee backtobacktobacktoback in 2004, and AGonz/Grudz, Sosa, Alou, Karros quite often in 2003.

[David]

Just a question. I haven't been entirely in the loop the last couple weeks. How likely is it looking that Walker will actually be our 2B this year?

[Magnetic Curses]

using this board to try and dispell myths is fruitless. anytime anybody new shows up you just have to start over again.

 

there should be board study kit presented to every new member before allowed to post.

[Magnetic Curses]

Sorry folksssss, I have to go eat dinner now. This is a good topic. What we all want is for the Cubs to win.

 

Go CUbbies!!!!!

 

it's not a good topic because there's only one real argument.

 

1. walker is a better hitter than cedeno.

[CuseCubFan69]

using this board to try and dispell myths is fruitless. anytime anybody new shows up you just have to start over again.

 

there should be board study kit presented to every new member before allowed to post.

 

Which myth is that Sully?

[goonys evil twin]

Just a question. I haven't been entirely in the loop the last couple weeks. How likely is it looking that Walker will actually be our 2B this year?

 

Depends what you mean about "our 2B". I think the odds that he starts the season on the roster are higher, post convention. It was clear that management's attempts to smear Walker in the press didn't work as well as it did with Sosa, Farnsworth and others. If the odds were 80% he's gone, maybe now it's something like 50%. But the odds of him actually being the everyday 2B for the whole season are probably still low. At most he'll be platooned with Hairston and Neifi. I still think he's gone, but the PR conscious front office might find it difficult to get rid of a guy that so many fans spoke out for at the disinformation sessions.

[Mark Priors Calves]

Walker should bat 2nd but I really can't see Dusty going back to back with two left handed hitters. He wouldn't use to monster right handed bats back to back in Lee and Ramirez. I can't see the same situation at the top of the order being any different.

 

But he has used Lee and Ramirez back to back. And he used Sammy, Alou, Ramirez and Lee backtobacktobacktoback in 2004, and AGonz/Grudz, Sosa, Alou, Karros quite often in 2003.

 

Very true, I should have been clearer in my first post. I was more referring to his huge reluctance to have a RRRR or LLLL somewhere in the lineup. It seemed at times last year that he was adamant about breaking up the blocks of those hitters no matter what.

[CubinNY]

using this board to try and dispell myths is fruitless. anytime anybody new shows up you just have to start over again.

 

there should be board study kit presented to every new member before allowed to post.

 

Which myth is that Sully?

 

Take your pick

 

1. Speed distracts the pitcher so he is not as effective

2. Speed distracts the catcher

3. You have to have speed at the top of the order

4. Small ball wins

5. "fundamentals" win related to 4.

 

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with people holding those opinions. But when evidence is presented to the contrary and then people pick at the evidence or at the messenger or make mistatements about the what the messenger wrote, those are problems.

[goonys evil twin]

Walker should bat 2nd but I really can't see Dusty going back to back with two left handed hitters. He wouldn't use to monster right handed bats back to back in Lee and Ramirez. I can't see the same situation at the top of the order being any different.

 

But he has used Lee and Ramirez back to back. And he used Sammy, Alou, Ramirez and Lee backtobacktobacktoback in 2004, and AGonz/Grudz, Sosa, Alou, Karros quite often in 2003.

 

Very true, I should have been clearer in my first post. I was more referring to his huge reluctance to have a RRRR or LLLL somewhere in the lineup. It seemed at times last year that he was adamant about breaking up the blocks of those hitters no matter what.

 

Walker in the 2 hole wouldn't make any sort of block.

 

Everybody who talks about the likelihood of a RH hitter in the 2 hole due to Pierre being LH conveniently forgets that Lee is 3rd. So it's either LRR or LLR. And with Ramirez likely 4th (unless Dusty is dumber than we think), it's either LRRR, or LLRR.

 

Walker over Cedeno in the 2 hole makes most sense on several levels. He's far more likely to get on. He's the better hitter, and if you want to talk about breaking up LLL or RRR strings of hitters, a LH 2nd hitter makes most sense.

[CuseCubFan69]

using this board to try and dispell myths is fruitless. anytime anybody new shows up you just have to start over again.

 

there should be board study kit presented to every new member before allowed to post.

 

Which myth is that Sully?

 

Take your pick

 

1. Speed distracts the pitcher so he is not as effective

2. Speed distracts the catcher

3. You have to have speed at the top of the order

4. Small ball wins

5. "fundamentals" win related to 4.

 

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with people holding those opinions. But when evidence is presented to the contrary and then people pick at the evidence or at the messenger or make mistatements about the what the messenger wrote, those are problems.

 

I've got to go to practice in a minute but I think all those do help make you a better team. I like teams that are balanced and can win different ways.

[UK1679666180]

1. Speed distracts the pitcher so he is not as effective

2. Speed distracts the catcher

3. You have to have speed at the top of the order

4. Small ball wins

5. "fundamentals" win related to 4.

 

I'll tackle this...

 

1)It does distract the pitcher, who is more likely to throw FBs (easier on the hitter) and rush his delivery throwing from the stretch. It could change how the defense is positioned and the pitcher's approach to the AB.

 

2)I don't think speed distracts the C, his focus will be more shifted towards the runner, but the only thing different is pitch selection. Maybe he'll get out of his stance prematurely and rush a throw.

 

3)Speed is an asset, it's adds value to the offense. You don't need speed at the top, but if it's there and the hitter has the other qualities needed to be an effective leadoff hitter (good hitter, works the count, draws BBs, etc.) it completes the puzzle moreso than someone w/out speed.

 

4)Like any offensive plan, small can win. Like the 3-run HR brigade of Weaver, it requires execution to be effective. If you execute enough, you can score w/small ball. But, you need pitching and defense as well to win.

 

5)You need a team to be fundamentally sound, every player that has been to the majors has been fundamentally sound. Some are more than others, but if your team is more sound fundamentally, you have an advantage. But, talent still outweighs fundamentals.

 

 

But, players w/out speed can have more value than players with a great amount of speed.

 

Players w/out speed can be very good leadoff hitters.

 

Small can be ineffective.

 

Teams can win w/out being the best fundamentally (Boston '04).

Edited January 30, 2006 by UK

[David]

Just a question. I haven't been entirely in the loop the last couple weeks. How likely is it looking that Walker will actually be our 2B this year?

 

Depends what you mean about "our 2B". I think the odds that he starts the season on the roster are higher, post convention. It was clear that management's attempts to smear Walker in the press didn't work as well as it did with Sosa, Farnsworth and others. If the odds were 80% he's gone, maybe now it's something like 50%. But the odds of him actually being the everyday 2B for the whole season are probably still low. At most he'll be platooned with Hairston and Neifi. I still think he's gone, but the PR conscious front office might find it difficult to get rid of a guy that so many fans spoke out for at the disinformation sessions.

 

Thanks. Not as good of an outlook as I was hoping for, but certainly better than what we were hearing just a few weeks back.

[MustangMike]

Sorry folksssss, I have to go eat dinner now. This is a good topic. What we all want is for the Cubs to win.

 

Go CUbbies!!!!!

 

it's not a good topic because there's only one real argument.

 

1. walker is a better hitter than cedeno.

 

I agree that Walker is a better proven hitter over his career, however I wonder how much speed really effects the 2 hole position. Will Walker's higher BA and OBP offset the DPs he hits into because of his lack of speed? Just a thought.

[CubDad4Ever]

UK , sorry for once again finding your take balanced and well thought out , but i do. I have said many times , speed has value , as do other aspects of players strengths , given the variety of contexts the season occurs in . To become entrenched in any viewpoint to the exclusion of evaluting data in all potential contexts , leads to a potentially narrow interpretation. God Bless and again a well worded view on the subject. Coach L

[UK1679666180]

Much of the speed advantage Cedeno has over Walker is negated by the fact Walker gets out of the box on the left side rather than the right. Cedeno has decent speed, but not great speed, better than Walker's but not significantly better.

[jmajew]

Since I don't think Baker would ever platoon Jones I wonder if he would swing him with Murton in the 5 spot depending on the pitcher? This would take some thinking but at least it would be a psuedo platoon and Jones wouldn't be hitting 5th against a lefty. This, assuming Walker would be at the 2 spot.

 

I was thinking of doing that same thing with Barrett. Have Jones bat 5th against righties and Barrett against lefties. Barrett's stats agaisnt lefties the past 3 years. (AVG/OBP/SLG). 261/351/497. Jones agsint righties the past 3 years 280/333/474. I think that would be a spectacular platoon situation. I would switch those two between the 5 and 7 spots. I would want Murton always batting 6th. Unless there are days when Barrett is not catching and a lefty is on the mound then I would have Murton batting 5. I think this will put a little less pressure on Murton and may help him to actually have a better year. So here would be my two lineups.

 

vs. lefties

Pierre

Walker

Lee

Ramirez

Barrett

Murton

Jones

Cedeno

 

vs. rigthies

Pierre

Walker

Lee

Ramirez

Jones

Murton

Barrett

Cedeno

 

I think this puts both Cedeno and Murton in a better situation to succeed. I feel if we put too much pressure on these guys like batting them in 2nd or 5th from the start of the season they won't reach there full potential.

 

With regard to the topic of speed and fundamentals being the most important aspect I think is laughable. It is a part of the game, but not the most important part. Last year the White Sox seem to claim that they won because they had speed and good fundamentals. That is entirely false IMO. They won last year because of timely homeruns. They hit over 200 homeruns last year. The White Sox had a balance of fundamentals and power. The only thing they lacked was OBP, which was why there offense struggled to score runs. It was a good thing there pitching and defense was so incredibly good.

 

The Cubs biggest problem offensively last year was the low OBP at the top of the order. With Pierre batting leadoff we upgraded there and with a healthy walker all year we upgraded the two hole. Which should automatically lead to more runs being scored. OBP is the most important stat when it comes to scoring runs, and in particular it is the most important stat when looking at the top of the order.

[CubfaninCA]

using this board to try and dispell myths is fruitless. anytime anybody new shows up you just have to start over again.

 

there should be board study kit presented to every new member before allowed to post.

 

Newcomers should be welcomed, not mocked.

[Drew Doughty]

We could welcome them with a study kit :)

[Bull]

Hmmm....wrong again am I? Then hopefully this would help ease my pain.

 

Yoda and Terence Mann all at once.

 

LOL!

 

I thought Terrance Mann was Vader. :?

 

This could mean some serious problems for the force.

[Bull]

using this board to try and dispell myths is fruitless. anytime anybody new shows up you just have to start over again.

 

there should be board study kit presented to every new member before allowed to post.

 

You are a marxist. :wink:

 

While I find your opinions insightful, based largely in fact, and most often correct, they are still opinions. Requiring someone to be indoctrinated before posting is ridiculous.

[TheDude]

using this board to try and dispell myths is fruitless. anytime anybody new shows up you just have to start over again.

 

there should be board study kit presented to every new member before allowed to post.

 

You are a marxist. :wink:

 

While I find your opinions insightful, based largely in fact, and most often correct, they are still opinions. Requiring someone to be indoctrinated before posting is ridiculous.

 

And elitist.

 

On topic -

 

As of today's 40-man, I see Dusty's lineup looking like:

 

CF Pierre

2B Walker

1B Lee

3B Ramirez

RF Jones

C Barret

LF Murton

SS Cedeno

 

My preferred "tryout" lineup is this however:

 

CF Pierre

LF Murton

1B Lee

3B Ramirez

2B Walker

RF Jones

C Barret

SS Cedeno

 

I really want to see what Murton can provide in the 2-hole. And that allows Jones to slide down to the 6-hole where he is better suited.

 

If Walker gets traded, half the lineup changes in order. So I'm just assuming he plays everyday for now, and I'm sure we'll have another three or four lineup threads before opening day, so I can shift it up then if he gets traded.

[goonys evil twin]

If Walker gets traded, half the lineup changes in order. So I'm just assuming he plays everyday for now, and I'm sure we'll have another three or four lineup threads before opening day, so I can shift it up then if he gets traded.

 

Even if he's not traded I can't see him being an everyday guy at this stage. I think Hairston or Neifi is going to take up much of the playing time at 2nd regardless of what happens on the trade front.

[Bull]

I don't see Dusty putting Walker in the 2-hole.

 

Pierre

Perez

Lee

Jones

ARam

Murton/Walker

Cedeno/Murton

Barrett

 

get used to it.

[Bull]

 

Even if he's not traded I can't see him being an everyday guy at this stage. I think Hairston or Neifi is going to take up much of the playing time at 2nd regardless of what happens on the trade front.

 

Walker turns 33 in May.

 

What are the chances he significantly declines this year?

[goonys evil twin]

 

Even if he's not traded I can't see him being an everyday guy at this stage. I think Hairston or Neifi is going to take up much of the playing time at 2nd regardless of what happens on the trade front.

 

Walker turns 33 in May.

 

What are the chances he significantly declines this year?

 

I meant at this stage of his relationship with Hendry, Baker and the Cubs. Not this age.

 

I think he's perfectly capable of being a starting 2B. He'd be my starting 2B on this roster and hit 2nd in the order unless I could trade him for a significant upgrade elsewhere while getting adequate production at his position.