Red Sox Reach Deal For Coco Crisp

[Sterling30]

Holy Smokes! Marte AND Mota

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=122417

[imb]

Cleveland was believed to be sending one of two relievers - left-hander Arthur Rhodes or right-hander Rafael Betancourt - to the Phillies in exchange for Michaels.

 

If one of those players nets Michaels, I'll never understand why we didnt end up with him. No sane person would prefer Pierre to Michaels.

[bmkhawk]

You are joking, right?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I'd really really rather have gotten Betancourt for the pen than Howry.

[imb]

You are joking, right?

 

No I'm not. You do know that when I say Pierre, I'm talking about Juan Pierre, right?

[bmkhawk]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

 

Michaels career: .291/.380/.442/.822, 113 OPS+

 

Pierre's best season ever: .326/.374/.407/.781, 107 OPS+

 

Michaels has been the superior offensive player. The only argument you could make is that Michaels for some reason wouldn't duplicate those numbers over the course of a full season. His numbers v. RHP are pretty much the high end of what to expect from Pierre, so his splits aren't any help in that aspect either.

[E.J.]

The article also says the Red Sox are about to sign Agonz II to a deal to play SS for them. That would make Lugo cheaper if Hendry was still going after him.

[CUBZ99]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

 

Michaels career: .291/.380/.442/.822, 113 OPS+

 

Pierre's best season ever: .326/.374/.407/.781, 107 OPS+

 

Michaels has been the superior offensive player. The only argument you could make is that Michaels for some reason wouldn't duplicate those numbers over the course of a full season. His numbers v. RHP are pretty much the high end of what to expect from Pierre, so his splits aren't any help in that aspect either.

 

Has Michaels ever played a full season? Big difference between playing part time or in a platoon and being the everyday guy.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

 

Michaels career: .291/.380/.442/.822, 113 OPS+

 

Pierre's best season ever: .326/.374/.407/.781, 107 OPS+

 

Michaels has been the superior offensive player. The only argument you could make is that Michaels for some reason wouldn't duplicate those numbers over the course of a full season. His numbers v. RHP are pretty much the high end of what to expect from Pierre, so his splits aren't any help in that aspect either.

 

Has Michaels ever played a full season? Big difference between playing part time or in a platoon and being the everyday guy.

 

PA's by year: 121, 125, 346, 343. Like I said before, he hits LHP better than RHP, but his numbers against RHP(.278/.361/.411/.772 the last 3 years) are still plenty good for a CF.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

 

Michaels career: .291/.380/.442/.822, 113 OPS+

 

Pierre's best season ever: .326/.374/.407/.781, 107 OPS+

 

Michaels has been the superior offensive player. The only argument you could make is that Michaels for some reason wouldn't duplicate those numbers over the course of a full season. His numbers v. RHP are pretty much the high end of what to expect from Pierre, so his splits aren't any help in that aspect either.

 

Has Michaels ever played a full season? Big difference between playing part time or in a platoon and being the everyday guy.

 

PA's by year: 121, 125, 346, 343. Like I said before, he hits LHP better than RHP, but his numbers against RHP(.278/.361/.411/.772 the last 3 years) are still plenty good for a CF.

 

Jason Michaels will be 30 YEARS OLD in 2006. IMO, he's an OLDER Matt Murton. I mean why do people like Michaels but give Pierre CRAP? Michaels doesn't have the speed to play CF, nor does he have the POWER to play a CORNER OF spot. In other words, Michaels is a GREAT 4th OFer.

[Andy]

Nice, nice trade for Cleveland. You get a very good prospect and a good reliever, plus will be able to acquire a replacement OF on the cheap. All this for a guy who, while good, is not even close to an impact player.

[Outshined_One]

Brad Wilkerson's career line:

 

.256/.365/.452/.817

 

He turns 29 next season, fyi. He doesn't have the speed to play CF, but apparently does not have the power to play a corner position.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

 

Michaels career: .291/.380/.442/.822, 113 OPS+

 

Pierre's best season ever: .326/.374/.407/.781, 107 OPS+

 

Michaels has been the superior offensive player. The only argument you could make is that Michaels for some reason wouldn't duplicate those numbers over the course of a full season. His numbers v. RHP are pretty much the high end of what to expect from Pierre, so his splits aren't any help in that aspect either.

 

Has Michaels ever played a full season? Big difference between playing part time or in a platoon and being the everyday guy.

 

PA's by year: 121, 125, 346, 343. Like I said before, he hits LHP better than RHP, but his numbers against RHP(.278/.361/.411/.772 the last 3 years) are still plenty good for a CF.

 

Jason Michaels will be 30 YEARS OLD in 2006. IMO, he's an OLDER Matt Murton. I mean why do people like Michaels but give Pierre CRAP? Michaels doesn't have the speed to play CF, nor does he have the POWER to play a CORNER OF spot. In other words, Michaels is a GREAT 4th OFer.

 

Michaels Rates as an above average defensive CF, Pierre below average. Michaels is the superior offensive player, and is cheaper in money and players. That's why people prefer him to Pierre.

[abuck1220]

wow, marte has the chance to be named by BA as THREE organizations' #1 prospect for 2006. impressive...i think.

[ltb]

this is absurd. what a steal for the indians.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Wow, what a disturbing set of transactions by Boston. They are very quickly heading down the path of the Mets and Yankees, and that will really limit their options later. When you have no more young players left, your only choice is to be in the free agent market every year, which naturally means your payroll will just keep going up up up.

 

As for the specific players in these rumored moves: I just can't see Cleveland giving up Rafael Betancourt for Jason Michaels. Betancourt is worth MUCH more--I'd argue he's the 2nd best setup man in baseball right NOW. Arthur Rhodes, that is different. Besides, even after moving Crisp, why does Cleveland need Michaels, anyway? Franklin Gutierrez is ready to play. His ceiling is higher than Michaels, and he's much younger.

 

Crisp for Marte AND Mota? As recently as 12 months ago, Marte was rated the #1 hitting prospect in baseball. Meanwhile, Crisp is just OK, and isn't likely to get better than he is now. You get Mota for free!

 

Man, why can't our organization be more like the Indians of late, I love what they're doing. What an exciting young team if they nail down Marte. Were I the White Sox, I'd be getting very nervous.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Brad Wilkerson's career line:

 

.256/.365/.452/.817

 

He turns 29 next season, fyi. He doesn't have the speed to play CF, but apparently does not have the power to play a corner position.

 

And I WAN'T exactly thrilled with him, either. I don't really like TWEENER players. Wilkerson WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE if the Cubs had gotten a POWER bat for RF, or LF depending on the player. And obviously Wilkerson is a better option then Jones, but still when you put the cards on the table, I prefer players in EXACT roles....Pierre in CF/LEADOFF, etc, etc...Michaels and Wilkerson. Besides it don't matter, Murton will be similar to either player before the yr is out....the conversation will be moot.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Some of you guys take this love of yours for OBP way too far.

 

And, on top of that, some of you guys put FAR too much weight into Pierre's season last year while seemingly forgetting the numbers he put up the two years before.

 

Michaels career: .291/.380/.442/.822, 113 OPS+

 

Pierre's best season ever: .326/.374/.407/.781, 107 OPS+

 

Michaels has been the superior offensive player. The only argument you could make is that Michaels for some reason wouldn't duplicate those numbers over the course of a full season. His numbers v. RHP are pretty much the high end of what to expect from Pierre, so his splits aren't any help in that aspect either.

 

 

Has Michaels ever played a full season? Big difference between playing part time or in a platoon and being the everyday guy.

 

PA's by year: 121, 125, 346, 343. Like I said before, he hits LHP better than RHP, but his numbers against RHP(.278/.361/.411/.772 the last 3 years) are still plenty good for a CF.

 

Jason Michaels will be 30 YEARS OLD in 2006. IMO, he's an OLDER Matt Murton. I mean why do people like Michaels but give Pierre CRAP? Michaels doesn't have the speed to play CF, nor does he have the POWER to play a CORNER OF spot. In other words, Michaels is a GREAT 4th OFer.

 

Michaels Rates as an above average defensive CF, Pierre below average. Michaels is the superior offensive player, and is cheaper in money and players. That's why people prefer him to Pierre.

 

Then it MAKES you think why haven't Michaels been giving a chance to play everyday. The fact is...he is pushing 30 yrs old, and while he does have that Brady Clark fill to him, he is still classified more of a 4th OF/pinch hitter, then a starter. Michaels would have been a nice STOP-GAP, but he didn't really fill a specific need, other then having a NICE OBP in limited time. Remember Hairston, Jr had a nice OBP in limited time ,too. That doesn't mean he is something special.

 

Bottomline: Philly has had NEED for CF for the last couple of yrs, rather it was Ledee, Lofton, Bryd, Chavez....they needed a CF, and Michaels never step up regardless of what his numbers say. Michaels is a tweener OF, who is better suited to playing ALL three spots in a pinch, then starting. Pierre (Regardless of 2005) fits a need, and he will succeed.

[CUBZ99]

So have the Sox gotten any better this offseason? They lost Damon, Rentaria, and now traded Mota, and Marte.

 

Now they sign Florida AGone?

[ThePenguin11]

I understand a fair amount of the criticism of Juan Pierre, but to say he's below average defensively is really not true. He's an average fielder. Just because he doesn't have a rocket for an arm - doesn't mean he's bad. 75% of centerfielders can't throw hard either. They can't all gun it like Vlad. I've been a little pessimistic of Pierre so far, but I'm willing to give him a chance. A lot of people around here seem to be writing him off before the season even starts.

[Cubzfan64]

I think Crisp fits in nicely in Boston - he's only 26, has a very low salary, is a switch hitter and has decent power. Is he worth Marte and Mota - on paper I'd say no, but then again this is one of those trades where we'll have to see a couple years down the road who it worked out best for.

 

The Red Sox are nowhere near the Yankees as far as having a depleted farm system - they still have quite a number of excellent up and coming arms down there. Not sure about position players, but their pitching is certainly good.

 

If they are able to keep Manny, they have enough offense to make up for putting a defensive player at SS in Gonzalez.

 

Have they gotten better over the offseason? Nobody will know until they start playing some games. They've certainly had alot of action considering it's quite likely 5 of the 8 starting position players will be new going into the season.

 

They still have alot of question marks though and the 2 biggest ones in my opinion revolve around 2 guys they had last year - Schilling and Faulke. If those 2 guys regain what they had pre-2005, it should be an improved ballclub - if they don't, they could very easily end up in 3rd or 4th place in that division.

[fromthestretch]

Then it MAKES you think why haven't Michaels been giving a chance to play everyday. The fact is...he is pushing 30 yrs old, and while he does have that Brady Clark fill to him, he is still classified more of a 4th OF/pinch hitter, then a starter. Michaels would have been a nice STOP-GAP, but he didn't really fill a specific need, other then having a NICE OBP in limited time.

 

Perhaps it's due to the same mindset that Dusty and Hendry appear to have: a leadoff man has to be fast/steal bases. If given the same opportunity as Pierre, I'd say that Michaels is just as likely to put up a .350+ OBP.

 

Remember Hairston, Jr had a nice OBP in limited time ,too. That doesn't mean he is something special.

 

I don't think Hairston and Michaels are comparable. Michaels has put up a decent OBP in every season (not including his six at-bats in 2001). Hairston has been inconsistent.

 

Bottomline: Philly has had NEED for CF for the last couple of yrs, rather it was Ledee, Lofton, Bryd, Chavez....they needed a CF, and Michaels never step up regardless of what his numbers say. Michaels is a tweener OF, who is better suited to playing ALL three spots in a pinch, then starting. Pierre (Regardless of 2005) fits a need, and he will succeed.

 

How did Michaels not "step up?" His numbers were fine; he just wasn't given the opportunity to play everyday. You can't fault Michaels for the fact that the Phillies were dumb enough to give Marlon Byrd 346 at-bats to post a stellar .287 OBP in 2004.

 

I'm kind of curious as to why everyone just dismisses Pierre's 2005 as a fluke when he was also bad in 2002. For the record, I do feel Pierre can bounce back, but I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if his OBP reaches .360 this season. Michaels is certainly capable of that, better defensively, and probably wouldn't have cost the Cubs three arms in a trade.

[CuseCubFan69]

Any Philly people out there that have seen Michaels play?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I understand a fair amount of the criticism of Juan Pierre, but to say he's below average defensively is really not true. He's an average fielder. Just because he doesn't have a rocket for an arm - doesn't mean he's bad. 75% of centerfielders can't throw hard either. They can't all gun it like Vlad. I've been a little pessimistic of Pierre so far, but I'm willing to give him a chance. A lot of people around here seem to be writing him off before the season even starts.

 

No, statistically and visually he's below average. His rate has consistently been below average, about the same as Todd Walker's maligned defense. He has good speed, but takes bad routes to balls, and has no arm to speak of.