Red Sox Reach Deal For Coco Crisp

[stitchface]

perhaps you should leave james out of your argument since you don't really know what his opinion would be.

[imb]

ridiculous , statement on michaels. Massive simplification. There is a reason he has been a part time player. James would laugh at your argument as i would. Assuming a full time number from a massive part time metric on top of the fact he is 30. Your right everyone else has forgot that best kept secret Pierre is not the great leadoff man on all levels . that everyone in baseball says he is . It is michaels and he has been kept out of a full time job until he is 30 because everyone in baseball cant get it. Small sample size , historical age disadvantage. You would be lucking out your rear to get full time numbers on those metrics. But that would defeat your part time obp, nefi stinks, dustys dump and slappy Jaun simplifications. O and forgot when you assume that much , you make a you know what out of you and me. Gods Peace Coach L. Sorry for the semi aggressive posture. Its not personal , i just dont by those redundent arguments

 

Michaels

3-Year .278/.361/.411/.772 vs right

3-Year .323/.426/.483/.909 vs left

 

Pierre's best outside of colorado season

.311/.346/.364/.710 vs left

.303/.368/.377/.745 vs right

 

Philly didnt want to play him, that's their problem.

"He's losing his mind, and im reaping all the benefits!" Or at least we should have.

[UK1679666180]

Different GMs and different managers value players different than each other. (Potential scenario) The same qualities that Shapiro and Wedge see in Michaels and project him as their starting corner OF'er are the same qualities that Wade (now Gillick) as well as Manuel seen that put Michaels' value as a platoon player. If Cleveland acquires him, it should be assumed it will be as a starter to replace some of the loss of Crisp. His value is geared towards being an above avg. CF'er rather than an above avg. corner OF'er.

 

Michaels' career pattern gives no indication that he would be ineffective as a full-time player. It does show that he has been extremely effective in a platoon/part-time role and undefined as an everyday player.

[RynoRules]

Different GMs and different managers value players different than each other. (Potential scenario) The same qualities that Shapiro and Wedge see in Michaels and project him as their starting corner OF'er are the same qualities that Wade (now Gillick) as well as Manuel seen that put Michaels' value as a platoon player. If Cleveland acquires him, it should be assumed it will be as a starter to replace some of the loss of Crisp. His value is geared towards being an above avg. CF'er rather than an above avg. corner OF'er.

 

Michaels' career pattern gives no indication that he would be ineffective as a full-time player. It does show that he has been extremely effective in a platoon/part-time role and undefined as an everyday player.

 

I agree with the above. Michaels stats do not disprove that he would be an effective everday player. My problem is - and its been said alread - if he is such a sure thing, how come he never has been everyday player? How come some other fwd-thinking team hasn't already traded for him (he's thirty!)?

[Kingmanarama]

If Michaels can actually be had for a middle reliever of Rhodes-or-Mota quality, the Cubs should bid. A Jones/Michaels platoon in RF would be a lot less sucky than a full season of Jones.

 

Edit: Also, why the heck weren't we in on Crisp? He's the surest thing in this rumored trade. At 24, he had an OPS+ of 106. At 25, he had an OPS+ of 119. Those 42 doubles last season, and a significant home/road split, suggest very good things. Pre-Pierre, I would've traded any two Cub prospects for Crisp.

[Blueheart05]

If Michaels can actually be had for a middle reliever of Rhodes-or-Mota quality, the Cubs should bid. A Jones/Michaels platoon in RF would be a lot less sucky than a full season of Jones.

 

Edit: Also, why the heck weren't we in on Crisp? He's the surest thing in this rumored trade. At 24, he had an OPS+ of 106. At 25, he had an OPS+ of 119. Those 42 doubles last season, and a significant home/road split, suggest very good things. Pre-Pierre, I would've traded any two Cub prospects for Crisp.

 

Well, if you consider what the Red Sox gave up to get Crisp I'm glad the Cubs didn't pursue him.

[Kingmanarama]

If Michaels can actually be had for a middle reliever of Rhodes-or-Mota quality, the Cubs should bid. A Jones/Michaels platoon in RF would be a lot less sucky than a full season of Jones.

 

Edit: Also, why the heck weren't we in on Crisp? He's the surest thing in this rumored trade. At 24, he had an OPS+ of 106. At 25, he had an OPS+ of 119. Those 42 doubles last season, and a significant home/road split, suggest very good things. Pre-Pierre, I would've traded any two Cub prospects for Crisp.

 

Well, if you consider what the Red Sox gave up to get Crisp I'm glad the Cubs didn't pursue him.

 

Because Marte is going to be Mike Schmidt? We'll see. I would have given him up for Crisp, who is already a terrific hitter and, since he just turned 26, probably hasn't plateaued.

[Blueheart05]

If Michaels can actually be had for a middle reliever of Rhodes-or-Mota quality, the Cubs should bid. A Jones/Michaels platoon in RF would be a lot less sucky than a full season of Jones.

 

Edit: Also, why the heck weren't we in on Crisp? He's the surest thing in this rumored trade. At 24, he had an OPS+ of 106. At 25, he had an OPS+ of 119. Those 42 doubles last season, and a significant home/road split, suggest very good things. Pre-Pierre, I would've traded any two Cub prospects for Crisp.

 

Well, if you consider what the Red Sox gave up to get Crisp I'm glad the Cubs didn't pursue him.

 

Because Marte is going to be Mike Schmidt? We'll see. I would have given him up for Crisp, who is already a terrific hitter and, since he just turned 26, probably hasn't plateaued.

 

They gave up Marte and Mota.

[Kingmanarama]

If Michaels can actually be had for a middle reliever of Rhodes-or-Mota quality, the Cubs should bid. A Jones/Michaels platoon in RF would be a lot less sucky than a full season of Jones.

 

Edit: Also, why the heck weren't we in on Crisp? He's the surest thing in this rumored trade. At 24, he had an OPS+ of 106. At 25, he had an OPS+ of 119. Those 42 doubles last season, and a significant home/road split, suggest very good things. Pre-Pierre, I would've traded any two Cub prospects for Crisp.

 

Well, if you consider what the Red Sox gave up to get Crisp I'm glad the Cubs didn't pursue him.

 

Because Marte is going to be Mike Schmidt? We'll see. I would have given him up for Crisp, who is already a terrific hitter and, since he just turned 26, probably hasn't plateaued.

 

They gave up Marte and Mota.

 

I don't think they've given up anything yet. The latest version of the deal I've seen has Riske and Bard going to Boston, with Shoppach and Mota possibly going to Cleveland. But there could be hold-ups regarding Mota's health, and the Indians' ability to replace Crisp with Michaels.

 

It's impossible to evaluate the trade without knowing who's in and who's out. But, if the Indians are/were willing to move Crisp, we should have been interested.

[Blueheart05]

If Michaels can actually be had for a middle reliever of Rhodes-or-Mota quality, the Cubs should bid. A Jones/Michaels platoon in RF would be a lot less sucky than a full season of Jones.

 

Edit: Also, why the heck weren't we in on Crisp? He's the surest thing in this rumored trade. At 24, he had an OPS+ of 106. At 25, he had an OPS+ of 119. Those 42 doubles last season, and a significant home/road split, suggest very good things. Pre-Pierre, I would've traded any two Cub prospects for Crisp.

 

Well, if you consider what the Red Sox gave up to get Crisp I'm glad the Cubs didn't pursue him.

 

Because Marte is going to be Mike Schmidt? We'll see. I would have given him up for Crisp, who is already a terrific hitter and, since he just turned 26, probably hasn't plateaued.

 

They gave up Marte and Mota.

 

I don't think they've given up anything yet. The latest version of the deal I've seen has Riske and Bard going to Boston, with Shoppach and Mota possibly going to Cleveland. But there could be hold-ups regarding Mota's health, and the Indians' ability to replace Crisp with Michaels.

 

It's impossible to evaluate the trade without knowing who's in and who's out. But, if the Indians are/were willing to move Crisp, we should have been interested.

 

According to Rosenthal Riske is not in the deal and Bard was not mentioned. It is tentatively set for a swap of Crisp for Mota and Marte pending Mota's physical. One can definitely evaluate the trade even though it is unofficial.

 

The Indians' tentative plan to trade outfielder Coco Crisp to the Red Sox and reliever Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies could hinge on whether Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota passes the Indians' physical, FOXSports.com has learned.

 

The first trade, the core of which would be Crisp for Mota and third baseman Andy Marte, would trigger the second, Rhodes for outfielder Jason Michaels. But officials with two of the clubs involved cited Mota's recent arm trouble as a potential deal-buster.

[Kingmanarama]

According to Rosenthal Riske is not in the deal and Bard was not mentioned. It is tentatively set for a swap of Crisp for Mota and Marte pending Mota's physical. One can definitely evaluate the trade even though it is unofficial.

 

The Indians' tentative plan to trade outfielder Coco Crisp to the Red Sox and reliever Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies could hinge on whether Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota passes the Indians' physical, FOXSports.com has learned.

 

The first trade, the core of which would be Crisp for Mota and third baseman Andy Marte, would trigger the second, Rhodes for outfielder Jason Michaels. But officials with two of the clubs involved cited Mota's recent arm trouble as a potential deal-buster.

 

The Boston Globe is reporting a six-player swap:

 

"The Red Sox, according to a source with knowledge of the deal, have reached agreement in principle with the Indians on a complex six-player deal centered upon 26-year-old Coco Crisp that also will bring to town a quality setup man in 28-year-old David Riske and young catcher Josh Bard."

 

Link.

 

We'll see. I'm not interested in judging the merits of this trade. I just wish we had been in on Crisp.

[Knyption]

If Michaels can actually be had for a middle reliever of Rhodes-or-Mota quality, the Cubs should bid. A Jones/Michaels platoon in RF would be a lot less sucky than a full season of Jones.

 

Edit: Also, why the heck weren't we in on Crisp? He's the surest thing in this rumored trade. At 24, he had an OPS+ of 106. At 25, he had an OPS+ of 119. Those 42 doubles last season, and a significant home/road split, suggest very good things. Pre-Pierre, I would've traded any two Cub prospects for Crisp.

 

Well, if you consider what the Red Sox gave up to get Crisp I'm glad the Cubs didn't pursue him.

 

Because Marte is going to be Mike Schmidt? We'll see. I would have given him up for Crisp, who is already a terrific hitter and, since he just turned 26, probably hasn't plateaued.

 

They gave up Marte and Mota.

 

 

I would have given up the prospects for Pierre, Hill, and Novoa easily.

[Blueheart05]

According to Rosenthal Riske is not in the deal and Bard was not mentioned. It is tentatively set for a swap of Crisp for Mota and Marte pending Mota's physical. One can definitely evaluate the trade even though it is unofficial.

 

The Indians' tentative plan to trade outfielder Coco Crisp to the Red Sox and reliever Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies could hinge on whether Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota passes the Indians' physical, FOXSports.com has learned.

 

The first trade, the core of which would be Crisp for Mota and third baseman Andy Marte, would trigger the second, Rhodes for outfielder Jason Michaels. But officials with two of the clubs involved cited Mota's recent arm trouble as a potential deal-buster.

 

The Boston Globe is reporting a six-player swap:

 

"The Red Sox, according to a source with knowledge of the deal, have reached agreement in principle with the Indians on a complex six-player deal centered upon 26-year-old Coco Crisp that also will bring to town a quality setup man in 28-year-old David Riske and young catcher Josh Bard."

 

Link.

 

We'll see. I'm not interested in judging the merits of this trade. I just wish we had been in on Crisp.

 

TheBoston Hearld says there's a possibility that Crisp and one (unnamed) minor leaguer may go to Boston for Marte and Mota.

 

Marte is a blue chip prospect and frankly, the Cubs don't have one. It would have taken a number of prospects to equal Marte plus, they would have asked for a ML reliever. I'd pass.

 

Over the weekend, the Red Sox and Cleveland Indians reached an agreement that would send 26-year-old outfielder Crisp, and possibly a minor leaguer, to the Sox in exchange for top third base prospect Andy Marte and relief pitcher Guillermo Mota. The deal was contingent upon the Indians completing a trade for an outfielder to replace Crisp, which was accomplished when they apparently settled on sending reliever Arthur Rhodes, or even Mota, to Philadelphia for Jason Michaels.

[RockTheIvy]

Is there something wrong with Marte? I mean traded twice in the same off-season? The trade that surprised me was the Braves. They could have used Betemit at Short and saved the 6 million and top flight prospect without getting Renteria. What gives with this?

[Blueheart05]

Is there something wrong with Marte? I mean traded twice in the same off-season? The trade that surprised me was the Braves. They could have used Betemit at Short and saved the 6 million and top flight prospect without getting Renteria. What gives with this?

 

There was speculation that he had a slightly torn laburm (?) but that rumor was refuted by the Braves. I think the Red Sox planned to keep him but when Damon flew the coop they were forced to act.

[UK1679666180]

Different GMs and different managers value players different than each other. (Potential scenario) The same qualities that Shapiro and Wedge see in Michaels and project him as their starting corner OF'er are the same qualities that Wade (now Gillick) as well as Manuel seen that put Michaels' value as a platoon player. If Cleveland acquires him, it should be assumed it will be as a starter to replace some of the loss of Crisp. His value is geared towards being an above avg. CF'er rather than an above avg. corner OF'er.

 

Michaels' career pattern gives no indication that he would be ineffective as a full-time player. It does show that he has been extremely effective in a platoon/part-time role and undefined as an everyday player.

 

I agree with the above. Michaels stats do not disprove that he would be an effective everday player. My problem is - and its been said alread - if he is such a sure thing, how come he never has been everyday player? How come some other fwd-thinking team hasn't already traded for him (he's thirty!)?

 

If you look at his career numbers, he was at right around 500 ABs at the major league level before last year. Teams likely needed a larger sample to evaluate him as far as deciding whether or not to trade for him.

 

His age is stunted by him attending Miami and his path to his majors, if you're 22-23 out of college and appear at every level, you're going to arrive at the majors around 25-27. Between that and being a part-time role, you're going to have a late arrival and a small major-league sample. Plus, his tools aren't above avg. in any aspect. He's not super fast, doesn't have raw power, avg. bat speed, avg. arm. He has a great work ethic, instincts, and approach to the game. If you have avg. tools across the board, you'll see less than demand compard to someone like Patterson. Those tools or lack of as well as the tools of Marlon Byrd are the same reasons why he has been platooned. Similar to John Olerud and his lack of tools for a 1B, you have to adjust your projection based on production rather than tools.

 

That'll likely answer your question (fairly and unbiased) as to why he hasn't been traded and has a limited sample despite his age.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Is there something wrong with Marte? I mean traded twice in the same off-season? The trade that surprised me was the Braves. They could have used Betemit at Short and saved the 6 million and top flight prospect without getting Renteria. What gives with this?

 

There was speculation that he had a slightly torn laburm (?) but that rumor was refuted by the Braves. I think the Red Sox planned to keep him but when Damon flew the coop they were forced to act.

 

I think you're right. In fact, I head an interview with Larry Luchinno (prior to Damon signing) where he stated that after giving up Hanley Ramirez in the Josh Beckett trade that they liked the idea of bringing in Marte as a way of replacing the loss of a top prospect.

 

I think the Red Sox had every intention of keeping Marte, but like you said, the need for a centerfielder has forced their hand considerably.

[RockTheIvy]

Is there something wrong with Marte? I mean traded twice in the same off-season? The trade that surprised me was the Braves. They could have used Betemit at Short and saved the 6 million and top flight prospect without getting Renteria. What gives with this?

 

There was speculation that he had a slightly torn laburm (?) but that rumor was refuted by the Braves. I think the Red Sox planned to keep him but when Damon flew the coop they were forced to act.

 

I think you're right. In fact, I head an interview with Larry Luchinno (prior to Damon signing) where he stated that after giving up Hanley Ramirez in the Josh Beckett trade that they liked the idea of bringing in Marte as a way of replacing the loss of a top prospect.

 

I think the Red Sox had every intention of keeping Marte, but like you said, the need for a centerfielder has forced their hand considerably.

 

I guess I'm just curious as to why the Braves ever traded him? Was it a bad move by them, to get Renteria? Boston trading him, at least to me, makes more sense. They have Lowell, and after Lowell, I'd imagine they'd go with Youkilis. As you have said, they needed a CFer, so they used their assets to fill a void, probably overpaying a bit, but that's okay for a team like Boston. I just don't understand the Braves reasoning.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Is there something wrong with Marte? I mean traded twice in the same off-season? The trade that surprised me was the Braves. They could have used Betemit at Short and saved the 6 million and top flight prospect without getting Renteria. What gives with this?

 

There was speculation that he had a slightly torn laburm (?) but that rumor was refuted by the Braves. I think the Red Sox planned to keep him but when Damon flew the coop they were forced to act.

 

I think you're right. In fact, I head an interview with Larry Luchinno (prior to Damon signing) where he stated that after giving up Hanley Ramirez in the Josh Beckett trade that they liked the idea of bringing in Marte as a way of replacing the loss of a top prospect.

 

I think the Red Sox had every intention of keeping Marte, but like you said, the need for a centerfielder has forced their hand considerably.

 

I guess I'm just curious as to why the Braves ever traded him? Was it a bad move by them, to get Renteria? Boston trading him, at least to me, makes more sense. They have Lowell, and after Lowell, I'd imagine they'd go with Youkilis. As you have said, they needed a CFer, so they used their assets to fill a void, probably overpaying a bit, but that's okay for a team like Boston. I just don't understand the Braves reasoning.

 

I think there were a number of reasons the Braves traded him.

 

1. Chipper Jones is back at third and has indicated he has no intentions of moving back to the outfield.

 

2. I'm not sure trying Marte in leftfield was an option the Braves wanted to try.

 

3. The Braves seemed to be very uncomfortable with Betemit as an everyday shortstop. Considering Boston is paying enough of Renteria's salary to make him a 6 million a year SS, I think the Braves felt this was a good move to make.

[Kingmanarama]

If you look at his career numbers, he was at right around 500 ABs at the major league level before last year. Teams likely needed a larger sample to evaluate him as far as deciding whether or not to trade for him.

 

His age is stunted by him attending Miami and his path to his majors, if you're 22-23 out of college and appear at every level, you're going to arrive at the majors around 25-27. Between that and being a part-time role, you're going to have a late arrival and a small major-league sample. Plus, his tools aren't above avg. in any aspect. He's not super fast, doesn't have raw power, avg. bat speed, avg. arm. He has a great work ethic, instincts, and approach to the game. If you have avg. tools across the board, you'll see less than demand compard to someone like Patterson. Those tools or lack of as well as the tools of Marlon Byrd are the same reasons why he has been platooned. Similar to John Olerud and his lack of tools for a 1B, you have to adjust your projection based on production rather than tools.

 

That'll likely answer your question (fairly and unbiased) as to why he hasn't been traded and has a limited sample despite his age.

 

I'm not sure about the work ethic part. This is from his STATS Inc. scouting report: "While Michaels didn't help himself when he declined the team's suggestion that he play winter ball after the 2004 season, he remains an asset off the bench." In any case, if he's available for a middle reliever, the Cubs should get involved.

 

Also, the rumored injury to Marte involved his elbow. This is from USAToday.com: "Reports of Andy Marte having a torn UCL in his elbow were false, according to the Boston Herald. 'There have been no doctor visits, no surgeries, no sore elbow, no anything,' Marte's agent, Don Mitchell, said. 'He’s been playing in the Dominican (Republic’s winter league), he’s been hitting, he’s been throwing and he’s been having no physical problems whatsoever.'"

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The Boston Herald is reporting that physicals are the only thing holding up the deal.

 

Physical examinations appear the only thing standing in the way of the Red Sox announcing the additions of Coco Crisp and Alex Gonzalez to fill their holes in center field and shortstop.

 

Over the weekend, the Red Sox and Cleveland Indians reached an agreement that would send 26-year-old outfielder Crisp, and possibly a minor leaguer, to the Sox in exchange for top third base prospect Andy Marte and relief pitcher Guillermo Mota. The deal was contingent upon the Indians completing a trade for an outfielder to replace Crisp, which was accomplished when they apparently settled on sending reliever Arthur Rhodes, or even Mota, to Philadelphia for Jason Michaels.

[NewUserName]

back in the late 80s when ken phelps had a break out year with the mariners, bill james did an article in his abstract called the ken phelps team. it was basically a bunch of players in there late 20s early 30s who james thought were never given their chance for some reason or another. most of the reasons were like KOs to much, not fast enough, some other player with more potential was blocking them, things like that. they however were productive in their small samples of play. The one thing none of them probably had were high BA. I dont think none of the players on this ken phelps team ever became an everyday player anywhere besides ken phelps. anyway to make a long drawn out thing short I think that jason micheals is probably a modern candidate for the ken phelps team. Iagree with the poster that said it is hard to judge what philly was thinking by choosing to play bird over micheals when all the statistical data proved it was just plain stupid. all this being said i dont think he fits into dustys idea of a player and we are probably better off not trading anything for him.

 

 

also on the coco crisp trade. it does look like cleveland did fleece boston, however since crisp has established a good level of play in the majors and marte hasnt this may turn out to be a great trade for boston. all that being said i really think this is a good trade for marte. he is going to a team that is working on becoming a power that also doesnt seem to a have a problem letting young players develop

[fromthestretch]

back in the late 80s when ken phelps had a break out year with the mariners, bill james did an article in his abstract called the ken phelps team. it was basically a bunch of players in there late 20s early 30s who james thought were never given their chance for some reason or another. most of the reasons were like KOs to much, not fast enough, some other player with more potential was blocking them, things like that. they however were productive in their small samples of play. The one thing none of them probably had were high BA. I dont think none of the players on this ken phelps team ever became an everyday player anywhere besides ken phelps. anyway to make a long drawn out thing short I think that jason micheals is probably a modern candidate for the ken phelps team. Iagree with the poster that said it is hard to judge what philly was thinking by choosing to play bird over micheals when all the statistical data proved it was just plain stupid. all this being said i dont think he fits into dustys idea of a player and we are probably better off not trading anything for him.

 

Anyone remember John VanderWal? Never had over 250 at-bats in a season until he was 34. Goes to Pittsburgh, gets a career-high 461 plate appearances, and had a very good season. The next year, gets 526 plate appearances, and while his numbers fell a little, he still put up a productive .270/.364/.442.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

back in the late 80s when ken phelps had a break out year with the mariners, bill james did an article in his abstract called the ken phelps team. it was basically a bunch of players in there late 20s early 30s who james thought were never given their chance for some reason or another. most of the reasons were like KOs to much, not fast enough, some other player with more potential was blocking them, things like that. they however were productive in their small samples of play. The one thing none of them probably had were high BA. I dont think none of the players on this ken phelps team ever became an everyday player anywhere besides ken phelps. anyway to make a long drawn out thing short I think that jason micheals is probably a modern candidate for the ken phelps team.

 

Michaels has a career .291 AVG, including .304 last year.

[Andy]

back in the late 80s when ken phelps had a break out year with the mariners, bill james did an article in his abstract called the ken phelps team. it was basically a bunch of players in there late 20s early 30s who james thought were never given their chance for some reason or another. most of the reasons were like KOs to much, not fast enough, some other player with more potential was blocking them, things like that. they however were productive in their small samples of play. The one thing none of them probably had were high BA. I dont think none of the players on this ken phelps team ever became an everyday player anywhere besides ken phelps. anyway to make a long drawn out thing short I think that jason micheals is probably a modern candidate for the ken phelps team. Iagree with the poster that said it is hard to judge what philly was thinking by choosing to play bird over micheals when all the statistical data proved it was just plain stupid. all this being said i dont think he fits into dustys idea of a player and we are probably better off not trading anything for him.

 

Anyone remember John VanderWal? Never had over 250 at-bats in a season until he was 34. Goes to Pittsburgh, gets a career-high 461 plate appearances, and had a very good season. The next year, gets 526 plate appearances, and while his numbers fell a little, he still put up a productive .270/.364/.442.

Vander Wal was a Cub killer as I recall. Then again, everyone was in the late 90s-early 00s.