Some comfort about the Pierre Trade--Renyel Pinto

[jjgman21]

Just curious, what type of player does everyone think Nolasco, Mitre, and Pinto should bring?

 

add in a bucket of chicken wings and half the people here things it should land Abreu.

 

Add Williams and Harvey and I think it gets you Abreu.

 

Unfortunately, you're not the Phil's GM. Everything I read said they want a #1 SP for Abreu. Nowhere in that list of names is anything above a #3 SP maybe.

 

well who cares what the Phil's GM says. Hendry should make that deal work anyway because we really really want Abreu.

[goonys evil twin]

fine. I'm apt to think that anything anyone tries to put in Hendry's favor is meaningless to you, but let's put them all into piles

 

seems to me Hendry has a long track record of doing what you want, only trade prospects if you are going to get good solid veteran players in return.

 

no matter how the Pierre trade ends up in retrospect, the scales still tilt way in Hendry's favor when it comes to trading prospects for veterans.

 

I too hate some of the things Hendry does, but that is tempered by reality.

 

Well, reality tells us that the Cubs aren't a very good team, but they are a very expensive team. So, when you add up all the "piles" of his deals, the results do not at all tilt in his favor, because the team he built isn't good.

 

That's what matters, and that is what makes me think the way I do about Hendry's moves, on the whole.

[goonys evil twin]

Just curious, what type of player does everyone think Nolasco, Mitre, and Pinto should bring?

 

add in a bucket of chicken wings and half the people here things it should land Abreu.

 

Add Williams and Harvey and I think it gets you Abreu.

 

Unfortunately, you're not the Phil's GM. Everything I read said they want a #1 SP for Abreu. Nowhere in that list of names is anything above a #3 SP maybe.

 

A) They aren't getting a #1, Williams stacks up with almost every pitcher who has even been rumored, much less ones that are realistic possiblities.

 

B) If Philly trades Abreu, it's because the new GM is trying to change from the old GM's approach, and that is because the ownership group is sick of paying a lot of money for a team that quickly lost the interest of the fans and didn't bring them any postseason revenue. Abreu would be traded because he's no longer in their plans for the future, at his age and salary level, and with their OF position, as is. They will have a really tough time signing top notch pitchers for that ballpark unless they pay much more than anybody else, and #1 starters are not available via trade. They need pitching depth, possibly more than they need just 1 really good pitcher, and they want payroll flexibility in the next couple seasons.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Just curious, what type of player does everyone think Nolasco, Mitre, and Pinto should bring?

 

add in a bucket of chicken wings and half the people here things it should land Abreu.

 

Add Williams and Harvey and I think it gets you Abreu.

 

Unfortunately, you're not the Phil's GM. Everything I read said they want a #1 SP for Abreu. Nowhere in that list of names is anything above a #3 SP maybe.

 

A) They aren't getting a #1, Williams stacks up with almost every pitcher who has even been rumored, much less ones that are realistic possiblities.

 

B) If Philly trades Abreu, it's because the new GM is trying to change from the old GM's approach, and that is because the ownership group is sick of paying a lot of money for a team that quickly lost the interest of the fans and didn't bring them any postseason revenue. Abreu would be traded because he's no longer in their plans for the future, at his age and salary level, and with their OF position, as is. They will have a really tough time signing top notch pitchers for that ballpark unless they pay much more than anybody else, and #1 starters are not available via trade. They need pitching depth, possibly more than they need just 1 really good pitcher, and they want payroll flexibility in the next couple seasons.

 

If you were the Phils GM would you do that deal?

[CubfaninCA]

fine. I'm apt to think that anything anyone tries to put in Hendry's favor is meaningless to you, but let's put them all into piles

 

seems to me Hendry has a long track record of doing what you want, only trade prospects if you are going to get good solid veteran players in return.

 

no matter how the Pierre trade ends up in retrospect, the scales still tilt way in Hendry's favor when it comes to trading prospects for veterans.

 

I too hate some of the things Hendry does, but that is tempered by reality.

 

Well, reality tells us that the Cubs aren't a very good team, but they are a very expensive team. So, when you add up all the "piles" of his deals, the results do not at all tilt in his favor, because the team he built isn't good.

 

That's what matters, and that is what makes me think the way I do about Hendry's moves, on the whole.

 

A healthy Prior makes this team "good."

[jjgman21]

fine. I'm apt to think that anything anyone tries to put in Hendry's favor is meaningless to you, but let's put them all into piles

 

seems to me Hendry has a long track record of doing what you want, only trade prospects if you are going to get good solid veteran players in return.

 

no matter how the Pierre trade ends up in retrospect, the scales still tilt way in Hendry's favor when it comes to trading prospects for veterans.

 

I too hate some of the things Hendry does, but that is tempered by reality.

 

Well, reality tells us that the Cubs aren't a very good team, but they are a very expensive team. So, when you add up all the "piles" of his deals, the results do not at all tilt in his favor, because the team he built isn't good.

 

That's what matters, and that is what makes me think the way I do about Hendry's moves, on the whole.

 

that's fine, but let's stick to the topic at hand. we weren't talking about all his deals. his ability to sign FA's just stinks. some of his priorities (ie Furcal instead of Giles) are just whack. but what we were talking about is one aspect of GM'ing, trading prospects for veterans. you implied Hendry was terrible at it because of one trade which can't be evaluated for probably 4 years at the earliest. all the evidence we currently have, when looked at objectively and not through eyes with nothing but hatred for Hendry, turns out he's pretty damn good in at least that one aspect.

[goonys evil twin]

If you were the Phils GM would you do that deal?

 

I wouldn't deal Abreu. But Philly is open to it. And if ownership made me trade Abreu, that is the type of deal I'd look into. Then I'd try and sign Millwood (or before Nomar signed I would have tried him for 3B). Actually, I'd try and get guys like Wuertz, Novoa, Ohman or Williamson added in to the deal, because my bullpen situation would be crap.

 

Of course, I'd talk about wanting a #1 pitcher and would ask for Zambrano and Prior first, but I'd realized that's a stupid proposal with no legs. I'd think about adding a guy like Zito, but realize he'd leave in a year anyway, and Oakland isn't going to take on Bobby's contract. Then I'd talk to every other team and ask about their best pitchers, but quickly realize that teams aren't trading their best pitchers. I'd consider rekindling talks with the White Sox, but since I think Garland is way overrated right now, and looking to cash in on a contract I have no interest in giving him, I stay away, since he's not really much better than Jerome Williams, but is older and more expensive. I'd ask for McCarthy instead, but I'd also want a bat, and if I could get a 3B that would be great, but Crede isn't really better than Bell. So, maybe I consider Dye. But then I realize that the CWS really don't have much payroll flexibility to take on Abreu right now.

 

So then I start talking to teams that do have payroll flexibility. The Yankees don't matchup. I'm not trading Bobby to the Mets or Braves. Boston is a possibility, but do I really think Clement, with his high walk rate and HR allowed is going to live up to his contract? Although Nixon would be a nice player to platoon with Michaels. I think long and hard about that deal. The one drawback is neither player would be in my longterm plans for the team. But it might also fascilitate a Manny to the Mets move, which would not be good for my NL East title hopes. Anaheim isn't trading for Abreu, Seattle might, but I doubt it.

 

Suddenly Houston, STL and the Cubs become candidates. But what do they each have to offer? None of the starting pitchers really stands out from the others (Marquis, Backe, Williams are very similar middle of the rotation starters). Houston can offer a nice package, but their owner doesn't like paying big money, and with dollars already tied into aging stars, does he want Abreu on the downside of his career? They have a bunch of their own good young players who need raises this year. If they offer Backe, Lidge and Ensberg, I'll do it in a heartbeat, but I don't think they will, especially since they need to replace pitching themselves. STL has 3 great position players and a bunch of interchangable role players, none of which interest me. I'm sure they could put together a package of players, but I'm not sure it'll be all that special of a group.

 

So then Hendry offers me Williams, Mitre, Nolasco, Pinto and Harvey. None of those guys will star for me in 2006, but I'm also paying very little money for them. Williams and Mitre are already in my rotation, given how weak it is right now. Nolasco and Pinto give me a chance to have a couple guys throughout their arbitration years, reducing my need to overspend on pitchers who don't want to be in Philly without big money. And Harvey is just a little sweetener that will make this easier to sell to the fans (you guys remember what we promised from Howard? Well, we expect the same from this guy in a couple years, he's younger than Howard was at this stage of his development.)

 

Now, I'm not blown away by that deal. But, considering I want to deal Abreu and change directions with this organization, and assuming nobody else comes out of nowhere and offers more than expected, this has to be one of the top 2-3 deals I can consider.

 

Of course, this can't happen, because the Cubs already settled on their supposed OF upgrade by dealing those guys.

[goonys evil twin]

that's fine, but let's stick to the topic at hand. we weren't talking about all his deals. his ability to sign FA's just stinks. some of his priorities (ie Furcal instead of Giles) are just whack. but what we were talking about is one aspect of GM'ing, trading prospects for veterans. you implied Hendry was terrible at it because of one trade which can't be evaluated for probably 4 years at the earliest.

 

I did? I don't think I did. I said I didn't like this Pierre deal and that the Willis deal was indeed his work. And then I was accused of bad mouthing anything Jim did just because I didn't like him or something. I don't like what he's done overall as GM, no matter how good or bad any individual deal make or may not look.

[badger1679666666]

first off i hope that people quit bringing up willis because no one saw that coming.

 

Not true.

 

It's not just Willis, it's the idea of trading good young prospects for mediocre veterans. I have no problem trading away prospects, even if they end up really good in a couple years. But when you do it, you better trade for really good veterans, and Pierre is not really good.

 

 

He was a throw-in at the last minute. No one saw it coming. IF you know of someone who did, and can read the future, can you please refer him to the Cubs. I'd like to know which of all of A and AA prospects are going to make the majors as studs.

[badger1679666666]

fine. I'm apt to think that anything anyone tries to put in Hendry's favor is meaningless to you, but let's put them all into piles

 

seems to me Hendry has a long track record of doing what you want, only trade prospects if you are going to get good solid veteran players in return.

 

no matter how the Pierre trade ends up in retrospect, the scales still tilt way in Hendry's favor when it comes to trading prospects for veterans.

 

I too hate some of the things Hendry does, but that is tempered by reality.

 

Well, reality tells us that the Cubs aren't a very good team, but they are a very expensive team. So, when you add up all the "piles" of his deals, the results do not at all tilt in his favor, because the team he built isn't good.

 

That's what matters, and that is what makes me think the way I do about Hendry's moves, on the whole.

 

The 2004 team that Hendy assembled was absolutely stacked. They should have won. You know it, I know it. IT isn't hendry's fault that crucial pieces got injured, Dusty can't manage a bullpen, and the team imploded in September.

 

That team was CLEARLY better and improved than the 2003 team. If you disagree, I have NO idea what you're looking at. Hendry did a stellar job of creating that team and it should have gone far in the play offs, if healthy.

 

Now the 2004 and 2005 off season's haven't gone well so far, but 2005 isn't over and Hendry was handcuffed in 2004.

 

There are plenty of things he's done that I don't like, but his positive moves outweight his negative moves, we just had too many injuries, and Dusty is a moron.

[CubinNY]

He was a throw-in at the last minute. No one saw it coming. IF you know of someone who did, and can read the future, can you please refer him to the Cubs. I'd like to know which of all of A and AA prospects are going to make the majors as studs.

 

There is no such thing as a "throw in" in the age of the internet. I can look up stats for any player in any league and I'm not even remotly related to anyone who is payed to do that kind of a job.

 

It is not unreasonable to assume that Florida knew they were getting an athletic lefty with very good velocity and decent secondary pitches who has a pitching motion that is deceptive but hard to repeat. With that windup it was no sure thing that he would be this good, but given the fact that he is left handed and has put up good numbers at every level it is not that hard to project he would make it to the bigs.

[goonys evil twin]

The 2004 team that Hendy assembled was absolutely stacked. They should have won. You know it, I know it. IT isn't hendry's fault that crucial pieces got injured, Dusty can't manage a bullpen, and the team imploded in September.

 

I disagree. I thought that team was flawed, and hoped if everything went well that they had a chance to win 92 games. As it turns out, Alou had his best season as a Cub, which I did not expect, because he was not living up to his contract before then. Prior was hurt before spring training even began. So he knew there were pitching issues. I never thought Dusty was good, so I can fault Hendry for hiring him in the first place (which I did at the time). DLee 2004 was nothing compared to DLee circa 2005, he was a slightly above average offensive first baseman. Michael Barrett hit so much better than any reasonable expectation of him. Any team that went into a season with AGonz at shortstop, Grudz the regular 2B, a rehabbing CPatt in CF and the until then awful Michael Barrett at catcher was not stacked. The 2003 team won only because the pitching was so freaking dominant and the competition was so mediocre. 2004 saw the addition of Maddux, whom I was not excited about. Glendon Rusch had a fluke half season. If you give him a break because Wood was suprisingly injured, what about a demerit for getting lucky with Rusch, or a resurgent year out of Alou, or a

 

 

He was a throw-in at the last minute. No one saw it coming.

 

Willis was a deal breaker for Florida. They insisted on him. And while I didn't foresee the DTrain to get rolling as quickly as it did, many people certainly saw that he was capable of doing what he did. He wasn't some 2 bit prospect throw-in who came out of nowhere. He was great before being traded.

[goonys evil twin]

There are plenty of things he's done that I don't like, but his positive moves outweight his negative moves, we just had too many injuries, and Dusty is a moron.

 

He hired Dusty. And the only out of nowhere injury was Prior's elbow this season.

 

The team won only 89 games in 2004 (11th highest total) and 79 (17th highest) in 2005. They did so with a top 5 payroll each season. I would say it's pretty clear the negatives outweighed the positives.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Wasn't Willis something like the 4th best starter in the Lansing/Boise rotation before he was traded? I can't blame him for trading Willis, although what he used Willis to acquire can be debated.

[XZero771679666304]

There are plenty of things he's done that I don't like, but his positive moves outweight his negative moves, we just had too many injuries, and Dusty is a moron.

 

He hired Dusty. And the only out of nowhere injury was Prior's elbow this season.

 

The team won only 89 games in 2004 (11th highest total) and 79 (17th highest) in 2005. They did so with a top 5 payroll each season. I would say it's pretty clear the negatives outweighed the positives.

 

I agree about 2005, but it is hard to complain about the team Hendry put together in 2004. That was easily the most talented team in the NL that year going into the season. Injuries and Dusty are to blame for 2004. 2005 is a different story, however.

[goonys evil twin]

There are plenty of things he's done that I don't like, but his positive moves outweight his negative moves, we just had too many injuries, and Dusty is a moron.

 

He hired Dusty. And the only out of nowhere injury was Prior's elbow this season.

 

The team won only 89 games in 2004 (11th highest total) and 79 (17th highest) in 2005. They did so with a top 5 payroll each season. I would say it's pretty clear the negatives outweighed the positives.

 

I agree about 2005, but it is hard to complain about the team Hendry put together in 2004. That was easily the most talented team in the NL that year going into the season. Injuries and Dusty are to blame for 2004. 2005 is a different story, however.

 

Frankly I'm sick of excuses.

He hired Dusty. You can't give Hendry slack by passing the blame onto Dusty. We knew what he was going to bring.

Prior was injured before the season. Joe Bo was injured before the season. He started the year with an above average Lee at 1B, an above average Grudz at 2nd, a crappy Gonzo at short, solid but unspectaculiar Ramirez at third, aging and underperforming Alou in left, rehabbing Patterson in center. Aging and declining Sosa in right. Alou, Ramirez, Barrett and Rusch all outperformed expectations. The only real "surprise" injury was Wood's. Every team deals with injuries. STL missed Rolen for much of 2005, and were still great. The Cubs didn't lose because of luck.

[JC]

Between the success of Willis and Sisco alone at the major league level, there is, at the very least, a very real question about this organization's ability to identify talent that will translate to the major leagues. Hell, you can include Garland as well from an organizational standpoint.

 

A couple of guys in Cy Young discussions for their respective leagues, along with perhaps the best non-closing reliever in the AL for much of the year, for what? Sure, Clement was an integral part of 2003 success, but Goony earlier identified the fact that that season's success was in large part due to mediocre opponents.

[CubfaninCA]

There are plenty of things he's done that I don't like, but his positive moves outweight his negative moves, we just had too many injuries, and Dusty is a moron.

 

He hired Dusty. And the only out of nowhere injury was Prior's elbow this season.

 

The team won only 89 games in 2004 (11th highest total) and 79 (17th highest) in 2005. They did so with a top 5 payroll each season. I would say it's pretty clear the negatives outweighed the positives.

 

I agree about 2005, but it is hard to complain about the team Hendry put together in 2004. That was easily the most talented team in the NL that year going into the season. Injuries and Dusty are to blame for 2004. 2005 is a different story, however.

 

Frankly I'm sick of excuses.

He hired Dusty. You can't give Hendry slack by passing the blame onto Dusty. We knew what he was going to bring.

Prior was injured before the season. Joe Bo was injured before the season. He started the year with an above average Lee at 1B, an above average Grudz at 2nd, a crappy Gonzo at short, solid but unspectaculiar Ramirez at third, aging and underperforming Alou in left, rehabbing Patterson in center. Aging and declining Sosa in right. Alou, Ramirez, Barrett and Rusch all outperformed expectations. The only real "surprise" injury was Wood's. Every team deals with injuries. STL missed Rolen for much of 2005, and were still great. The Cubs didn't lose because of luck.

 

I'm sick of overlooking facts. Few could forsee both Prior & Wood going down in 2004. Those two were the backbone of the team. Sure Hendry should have been better prepared in 2005, but he did pick up Jerome Williams early on, who isn't too shabby.

[XZero771679666304]

There are plenty of things he's done that I don't like, but his positive moves outweight his negative moves, we just had too many injuries, and Dusty is a moron.

 

He hired Dusty. And the only out of nowhere injury was Prior's elbow this season.

 

The team won only 89 games in 2004 (11th highest total) and 79 (17th highest) in 2005. They did so with a top 5 payroll each season. I would say it's pretty clear the negatives outweighed the positives.

 

I agree about 2005, but it is hard to complain about the team Hendry put together in 2004. That was easily the most talented team in the NL that year going into the season. Injuries and Dusty are to blame for 2004. 2005 is a different story, however.

 

Frankly I'm sick of excuses.

He hired Dusty. You can't give Hendry slack by passing the blame onto Dusty. We knew what he was going to bring.

Prior was injured before the season. Joe Bo was injured before the season. He started the year with an above average Lee at 1B, an above average Grudz at 2nd, a crappy Gonzo at short, solid but unspectaculiar Ramirez at third, aging and underperforming Alou in left, rehabbing Patterson in center. Aging and declining Sosa in right. Alou, Ramirez, Barrett and Rusch all outperformed expectations. The only real "surprise" injury was Wood's. Every team deals with injuries. STL missed Rolen for much of 2005, and were still great. The Cubs didn't lose because of luck.

 

Okay, when pitchers and catcher reported in 2004, the team was significantly better than in 2003. Much better. Prior being hurt in ST was unexpected, anyone who says they saw that coming is full of it. Borowski being injured was unexpected. Gruz was above average (and he got unexpectedly hurt), his replacement Walker was well above average. Sosa was still above average. Patterson provided above average production for his position. Lee was above average. Barrett was all but guaranteed to be better with the bat than Miller and Bako. There was really only one probable hole in the lineup.

 

The rotation was expected to be the best, and the pen to be one of the best. The best setup man was added to pen that included Farns (who was good in 2003), Remmy (who had been good in 2003) and a closer who was coming off back to back great seasons. The rotation projected to be Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Clement and Maddux. Wood and Prior were coming off all world seasons and showed little sign of potential health problems.

 

St. Louis lost Rolen in 2005? So what. The Cubs lost Sosa, Wood, Prior, Borowski and Grudz. How would St. Louis have fared if Carpenter, Mulder, Grudz, Izzy and Edmonds? They sure wouldn't have won the division. Hell, if we had even half as many injuries even Dusty couldn't have screwed it up.

 

Then Hendry goes out and gets the biggest name traded at the deadline.

 

Is Hendry partially responsible for Dusty? Of course. Is he totally responsible? Probably, at this point. Did Hendry prepare poorly for 2005? Yes. Hell, I am sick of Hendry and wouldn't mind seeing him fired. But to put the mantle of responsibility for 2004's failure on him is just wrong. People we picking the Cubs to win the NL and SI picked them to win it all. Is this because Hendry did a poor job of preparing?

 

Hendry has screwed up badly recently. 3 years of Dusty has illustrated what a poor decision he has turned out to be. After going to the NLCS in 2003, you had to figure Dusty would get a pass for 2004. But Hendry should have canned him after 2005, and he is incompetant for still supporting him.

 

But let's not color Hendry's tunure as all bad, because that's just not true. That's not making excuses, it's just being honest. If you want to vilify Jim and say he has been bad thoughout, go ahead. But you're wrong.

[Mizzou]

Willis was a deal breaker for Florida. They insisted on him. And while I didn't foresee the DTrain to get rolling as quickly as it did, many people certainly saw that he was capable of doing what he did. He wasn't some 2 bit prospect throw-in who came out of nowhere. He was great before being traded.

 

Great? He pitched a total 28 innings in the Cubs system, posting a 3.86 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP. We all have our own definition of great, but I'm sure most would agree that that isn't "great."

[BigbadB]

Willis was a deal breaker for Florida. They insisted on him. And while I didn't foresee the DTrain to get rolling as quickly as it did, many people certainly saw that he was capable of doing what he did. He wasn't some 2 bit prospect throw-in who came out of nowhere. He was great before being traded.

 

Great? He pitched a total 28 innings in the Cubs system, posting a 3.86 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP. We all have our own definition of great, but I'm sure most would agree that that isn't "great."

 

28 innings doesn't sound right to me. Are you sure?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Willis was a deal breaker for Florida. They insisted on him. And while I didn't foresee the DTrain to get rolling as quickly as it did, many people certainly saw that he was capable of doing what he did. He wasn't some 2 bit prospect throw-in who came out of nowhere. He was great before being traded.

 

Great? He pitched a total 28 innings in the Cubs system, posting a 3.86 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP. We all have our own definition of great, but I'm sure most would agree that that isn't "great."

 

28 innings doesn't sound right to me. Are you sure?

 

That's what the Baseball Cube says, but it's missing his 2001, where he pitched 93 innings for Boise, with a WHIP of almost exactly 1.00 and a 2.98 ERA. Wasn't 2001 the year the Baseball Cube was missing for Nic Jackson too?

[Mizzou]

Willis was a deal breaker for Florida. They insisted on him. And while I didn't foresee the DTrain to get rolling as quickly as it did, many people certainly saw that he was capable of doing what he did. He wasn't some 2 bit prospect throw-in who came out of nowhere. He was great before being traded.

 

Great? He pitched a total 28 innings in the Cubs system, posting a 3.86 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP. We all have our own definition of great, but I'm sure most would agree that that isn't "great."

 

28 innings doesn't sound right to me. Are you sure?

 

Not entirely. That's just what baseball cube shows, I don't know of any other sites that list minor league stats.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

Pinto may turn out to be a bust if he doesn't harness his control. Of course, he might learn command of his pitches overtime but right now he's either very wild or very hittable. It's obvious he isn't ready for primetime considering his output in the VWL (against many ML quality hitters) as well as his missteps in AAA.

 

Renyel Pinto allowed three runs -- two earned -- and seven hits in 4 2/3 innings yesterday for Anzoategui of the VWL.

At least he seems to have found his command. In his first three appearances of the VWL season, he walked eight batters over the course of one inning. Dec. 19 - 2:34 pm et

 

Rotoworld

I didn't feel like reading this whole thread but that has always been the concern with Renyel. He has always had the stuff but it was just a matter of him finding a way to command it. This isn't some newfound insight that just came up.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Willis was a deal breaker for Florida. They insisted on him. And while I didn't foresee the DTrain to get rolling as quickly as it did, many people certainly saw that he was capable of doing what he did. He wasn't some 2 bit prospect throw-in who came out of nowhere. He was great before being traded.

 

Great? He pitched a total 28 innings in the Cubs system, posting a 3.86 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP. We all have our own definition of great, but I'm sure most would agree that that isn't "great."

 

28 innings doesn't sound right to me. Are you sure?

 

Not entirely. That's just what baseball cube shows, I don't know of any other sites that list minor league stats.

 

This doesn't have as many players as TBC, but still: http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/player_list.asp