Some comfort about the Pierre Trade--Renyel Pinto

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Wasn't Willis something like the 4th best starter in the Lansing/Boise rotation before he was traded? I can't blame him for trading Willis, although what he used Willis to acquire can be debated.

 

Am I mistaken or didn't they ask for Guzman first from that Boise team?

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

[BigbadB]

Willis was a deal breaker for Florida. They insisted on him. And while I didn't foresee the DTrain to get rolling as quickly as it did, many people certainly saw that he was capable of doing what he did. He wasn't some 2 bit prospect throw-in who came out of nowhere. He was great before being traded.

 

Great? He pitched a total 28 innings in the Cubs system, posting a 3.86 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP. We all have our own definition of great, but I'm sure most would agree that that isn't "great."

 

28 innings doesn't sound right to me. Are you sure?

 

That's what the Baseball Cube says, but it's missing his 2001, where he pitched 93 innings for Boise, with a WHIP of almost exactly 1.00 and a 2.98 ERA. Wasn't 2001 the year the Baseball Cube was missing for Nic Jackson too?

 

Ah, that's more like it. Thought I was losing my mind.

[JC]

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

You know the Marlins' scouting department!? :wink:

[jjgman21]

Willis was a deal breaker for Florida. They insisted on him. And while I didn't foresee the DTrain to get rolling as quickly as it did, many people certainly saw that he was capable of doing what he did. He wasn't some 2 bit prospect throw-in who came out of nowhere. He was great before being traded.

 

Great? He pitched a total 28 innings in the Cubs system, posting a 3.86 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP. We all have our own definition of great, but I'm sure most would agree that that isn't "great."

 

28 innings doesn't sound right to me. Are you sure?

 

That's what the Baseball Cube says, but it's missing his 2001, where he pitched 93 innings for Boise, with a WHIP of almost exactly 1.00 and a 2.98 ERA. Wasn't 2001 the year the Baseball Cube was missing for Nic Jackson too?

 

I have all the Cubs system minor league stats for 2001 if it is of interest to NSBB. I'd post it here but don't know how to format it to be intelligible.

 

starters for 2001 Boise GS/ERA/IP/K/BB/WHIP (noone other than Wynegar had more that 2 HRs, he had 7)

 

Guzman 14/2.23/76.7/63/19/1.14

Mitre 15/3.07/91/71/18/1.13

Pignatello 12/3.00/78/83/22/1.18

Willis 15/2.98/93.7/77/19/1.02

Wynegar 12/2.92/71/63/19/1.35

 

and from that group, Willis was allegedly the deal breaker.

[jjgman21]

Wasn't Willis something like the 4th best starter in the Lansing/Boise rotation before he was traded? I can't blame him for trading Willis, although what he used Willis to acquire can be debated.

 

Am I mistaken or didn't they ask for Guzman first from that Boise team?

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

oh if only MacPhail/Hendry caved on Guzman. but then again, they are supposed to be clairvoyant.

[jjgman21]

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

c'mon. I was on the espn board back then too. we all predicted everyone from that Boise team to be superstars. there was no way to distinguish who was best, particularly the guy with the hurky-gerky, unrepeatable delivery.

[JC]

Wasn't Willis something like the 4th best starter in the Lansing/Boise rotation before he was traded? I can't blame him for trading Willis, although what he used Willis to acquire can be debated.

 

Am I mistaken or didn't they ask for Guzman first from that Boise team?

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

oh if only MacPhail/Hendry caved on Guzman. but then again, they are supposed to be clairvoyant.

 

Why go here. Nobody has said any such thing. While there is no requirement to be an oracle while holding a MLB organizational position, it is incumbent, particularly from the GM, that a pattern doesn't develop wherein talent is continually forfeit without proper return. That is all anyone is saying.

[jjgman21]

Wasn't Willis something like the 4th best starter in the Lansing/Boise rotation before he was traded? I can't blame him for trading Willis, although what he used Willis to acquire can be debated.

 

Am I mistaken or didn't they ask for Guzman first from that Boise team?

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

oh if only MacPhail/Hendry caved on Guzman. but then again, they are supposed to be clairvoyant.

 

Why go here. Nobody has said any such thing. While there is no requirement to be an oracle while holding a MLB organizational position, it is incumbent, particularly from the GM, that a pattern doesn't develop wherein talent is continually forfeit without proper return. That is all anyone is saying.

 

on the other hand, if one challenges the existence of said pattern, as I and others do above, a lively quip, to emphasize the rarity of said organization forfeiting without proper return and to note that said GM is human, is not out of bounds.

 

indeed, but for this one transaction, one would have a difficult time arguing said GM ever made a bad trade.

[stitchface]

Wasn't Willis something like the 4th best starter in the Lansing/Boise rotation before he was traded? I can't blame him for trading Willis, although what he used Willis to acquire can be debated.

 

Am I mistaken or didn't they ask for Guzman first from that Boise team?

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

oh if only MacPhail/Hendry caved on Guzman. but then again, they are supposed to be clairvoyant.

 

Why go here. Nobody has said any such thing. While there is no requirement to be an oracle while holding a MLB organizational position, it is incumbent, particularly from the GM, that a pattern doesn't develop wherein talent is continually forfeit without proper return. That is all anyone is saying.

 

on the other hand, if one challenges the existence of said pattern, as I and others do above, a lively quip, to emphasize the rarity of said organization forfeiting without proper return and to note that said GM is human, is not out of bounds.

 

indeed, but for this one transaction, one would have a difficult time arguing said GM ever made a bad trade.

 

 

are you posting in iambic pentameter? That would be impressive.

[jjgman21]

Wasn't Willis something like the 4th best starter in the Lansing/Boise rotation before he was traded? I can't blame him for trading Willis, although what he used Willis to acquire can be debated.

 

Am I mistaken or didn't they ask for Guzman first from that Boise team?

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

oh if only MacPhail/Hendry caved on Guzman. but then again, they are supposed to be clairvoyant.

 

Why go here. Nobody has said any such thing. While there is no requirement to be an oracle while holding a MLB organizational position, it is incumbent, particularly from the GM, that a pattern doesn't develop wherein talent is continually forfeit without proper return. That is all anyone is saying.

 

on the other hand, if one challenges the existence of said pattern, as I and others do above, a lively quip, to emphasize the rarity of said organization forfeiting without proper return and to note that said GM is human, is not out of bounds.

 

indeed, but for this one transaction, one would have a difficult time arguing said GM ever made a bad trade.

 

not intentionally, but I did notice it some paterns developing as I was writing it. sort of felt like I was writing Phish lyrics. or maybe haikus.

 

 

are you posting in iambic pentameter? That would be impressive.

 

not intentionally, but I did notice it some paterns developing as I was writing it. sort of felt like I was writing Phish lyrics. or maybe haikus.

[stitchface]

sounds like shakespeare to me.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

c'mon. I was on the espn board back then too. we all predicted everyone from that Boise team to be superstars. there was no way to distinguish who was best, particularly the guy with the hurky-gerky, unrepeatable delivery.

 

No, I mean they distinguished Willis (and Guzman to a lesser extent) from the others.

 

Thanks for the stats.

[jjgman21]

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

c'mon. I was on the espn board back then too. we all predicted everyone from that Boise team to be superstars. there was no way to distinguish who was best, particularly the guy with the hurky-gerky, unrepeatable delivery.

 

No, I mean they distinguished Willis (and Guzman to a lesser extent) from the others.

 

Thanks for the stats.

 

I don't recall ever hearing about that, and would be interested to know if those comments were made in hindsite. GMs are not above building their resumes by saying something like that later on. I have a hard time believing the choice of him over the others was anything other than a crapshoot. stats wise its tough to distinguish, why go with the guy who appeared to be getting it done with trickery?

 

if they did distinguish him, I think that's got to be a kudos to the Marlins more than a knock on the Cubs scouting. were talking about short season. certainly not something to completely bank a long term assessment on and certainly not something to hold up in the air and say "you blew it Cubs organization." furthermore, if it was some incredibly poor oversite by someone from the Cubs, the blame probably has to go to Fleita, not Hendry/MacPhail.

 

and you're welcome for the stats. I had alot of time on my hands in winter of 2001-2002.

 

edit: I think I mistook your post again. who could have done any predicting on Willis? who do you know that attended multiple starts of Guzman, Pignatello, Mitre and Willis in the pacific northwest in 2001? if someone from outside of the baseball establishment distinguished Willis from the others, they would have either have had to attend the games or, as I said before, be clairvoyant.

[Blueheart05]

Pinto may turn out to be a bust if he doesn't harness his control. Of course, he might learn command of his pitches overtime but right now he's either very wild or very hittable. It's obvious he isn't ready for primetime considering his output in the VWL (against many ML quality hitters) as well as his missteps in AAA.

 

Renyel Pinto allowed three runs -- two earned -- and seven hits in 4 2/3 innings yesterday for Anzoategui of the VWL.

At least he seems to have found his command. In his first three appearances of the VWL season, he walked eight batters over the course of one inning. Dec. 19 - 2:34 pm et

 

Rotoworld

I didn't feel like reading this whole thread but that has always been the concern with Renyel. He has always had the stuff but it was just a matter of him finding a way to command it. This isn't some newfound insight that just came up.

 

Yes, I know he's especially had ongoing command problems but that was in the minors (AAA where he had more walks than IP). This news relates to his Winter Leagues appearances where's he's facing a lot of ML- quality hitters.

[badger1679666666]

Wasn't Willis something like the 4th best starter in the Lansing/Boise rotation before he was traded? I can't blame him for trading Willis, although what he used Willis to acquire can be debated.

 

Am I mistaken or didn't they ask for Guzman first from that Boise team?

 

And I know a couple people who predicted Willis' success before he was traded.

 

oh if only MacPhail/Hendry caved on Guzman. but then again, they are supposed to be clairvoyant.

 

particularly from the GM, that a pattern doesn't develop wherein talent is continually forfeit without proper return. That is all anyone is saying.

 

I don't see how ANYONE in a rational, methodical way, could outline how Hendry is continually in a pattern of forfeiting talent without proper return. That is all I'm saying.

 

One could argue at the time, if Baker wasn't a moron, and managed the NLCS, giving up Willis helped the Cubs reach the WS for the first time since 1945. Clement was an integral piece of that pitching machine that dominated. I'll give up Pie, if it gets me in the WS and a chance to win it.

 

But aside from Willis (which apparently some knew would be a cy young award winner, while most couldn't differentiate from teh rest of that talented group) hendry has consistently been in a pattern of fleecing teams in trades, and getting much more talent back then he's given up - items of proof (and I may not include all players, this is off my poor short-term memory)

 

Hill + other scrubs = Aramis, Simon, Lofton

Choi = Lee

Alex Gonzales, Francis Beltran + other scrubs = Nomar, Murton

LaDump = J. Williams, Aardsma

Damian Miller = Barrett

Hundley = Grudz and Karros

 

 

items against proof:

 

Hairston/Fontenot = sosa (though some may not include this as a negative)

Moore/Novoa = farnsworth (though some may not include this as a negative quite yet after seeing farnsies contract and moore's potential)

Cruz = Can't remember - this trade was awful

 

Pierre = Mitre, pinto, nolasco (YTBD)

 

 

In fact if I was going to argue anything about Hendry's "pattern" it's continually overpaying for mediocrity in the free agent market, and re-signing crappy free agents.

[NCCubFan]

Wasn't 2001 the year the Baseball Cube was missing for Nic Jackson too?

Yes it was; I found and posted his 2001 statistics in the thread about him.

[UBlink]

Renyel Pinto allowed three runs -- two earned -- and seven hits in 4 2/3 innings yesterday for Anzoategui of the VWL.

At least he seems to have found his command. In his first three appearances of the VWL season, he walked eight batters over the course of one inning. Dec. 19 - 2:34 pm et

 

One additional note - Pinto has made 5 appearances in Venezuela and Rotoworld conveniently left one out. On Dec. 11 he pitched 6 shutout innings with 2 hits, 6K, 2BB.

 

Pinto Venezuela stats link