Perspective on Furcal from Atlanta

[Roast]

If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season.

 

Utterly ridiculous.

 

How so?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.

 

It doesn't matter what some people in Atlanta think. What matters is how much he actually contributes per dollar. Atlanta is dealing with emotional fan attachment in addition to not having a viable leadoff option within sight. We should be making a cold hard business decision on Furcal, not bidding off the value of another club's emotions. 8-10M per year is ridiculous for the numbers he puts up. Paying a "difference maker" far more than he's worth negates the positives he brings to the table. He's no longer a difference maker above a certain price.

Edited November 15, 2005 by Meat&PotatoesMan

[UK1679666180]

A question though, with Cedeno still somewhat of an unknown offensively, are you sure you want to take the risk of him hitting .240/.310/.390 as your starting SS?

 

Although, thankfully I'm not Goony :)

 

I think you could live with that depending on your 7 other position players, that's a typical (not ideal) #8 hitter.

 

In fact, that OBP and SLG is where I'd put Neifi's ceiling, I don't see him hitting that well, but it's within the realm of possibility.

 

I think Cedeno can hit in low to mid 7s as far as OPS, better than Neifi and solid enough for a #8 hitter.

 

As far as being able to afford Furcal with several young cheap players? Yeah, they could, but it still is overpaying for a player that doesn't merit that high of a salary. 4 or 5 years doesn't bother me as much as dollars per.

[goonys evil twin]

I have agreed with everything you've written in this thread so far. A question though, with Cedeno still somewhat of an unknown offensively, are you sure you want to take the risk of him hitting .240/.310/.390 as your starting SS? That would seem to be his floor. I think he'll do much better than that, but I thought Dubois would do much better than he did also.

 

Another question if Cedeno plays 2B, Murton plays LF and Pie plays CF starting in '07 and they do so for the next 4 years rather cheaply, wouldn't the Cubs still be able to afford to give raises to players like Prior, Zambrano, Lee and Ramirez even with Furcal on the books for 9 mill?

 

If I had a middle of the order of Giles, Lee, Ramirez, I'd be very willing to gamble on Cedeno with those numbers.

 

The Cubs seem poised to go with Murton and Cedeno somewhere, from what I can tell. if you know you're going with those two, who may or may not produce, I'd like to maximize the production out of the other 6.

 

If Hendry keeps wasting money on roster fillers like Perez and Rusch when you can get similar or better production out of minimum wage players, then no, they won't be able to afford all those raises.

[nick23]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.

On this Cubs team, Furcal alone won't be a difference maker. I think that is what Goony has been trying to say.

 

If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season.

That's insane. If we don't get Giles or someone better we're not making the playoffs? Healthy rotation, bullpen help, and we make the playoffs no matter who we sign for right.

[bannor10]

You are comparing Nomar at his best...He's done playing short stop for any period of time...If you want his bat in the line up you are going to have to play in some where,,,,I think he might be done

Maybe the Nomar from 2000......He's done being a top tier player...Put him in LF and he is nothing special......

 

I'd rather bring back nomar for cheap with the risk of injury. Nomar at his best is better than Furcal at his. And if nomar flops, throw Cedeno in there. Save the money now, use it on taking on some contract in a trade (or something)

 

What in the blazes does that have to do with anything. The goal is to get top production out of each position. You wont find any (save Arod) Bobby Abreu's or Barry Bonds at short stop.

 

As for him being nothing special....

 

Dude has a .320 career average.

 

Since 2000 (when he was stellar, as you pointed out) he has batted .289(injury shortened), .310, .301, .321/.297 (redsox/cubs), and .283 (he batted well above .300 after the injury). Those stats are still VERY good and still put him atop most of the other SS's baseball. And cheaper too.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

the cubs should have their attention focused on signing brian giles or trading for a guy like abreu, trading for wilkerson, and letting cedeno start at short and leaving walker at second. signing furcal to a contract like that will be a horrible, horrible move for the chicago cubs. if the cubs have money burning a hole in their pocket, then spend it on pitching. furcal is not worth it.

 

i'd be happy with this lineup:

 

CF Wilkerson

2B Walker

1B Lee

RF Giles

3B Ramirez

C Barrett

LF Murton

SS Cedeno

 

go out and look at a guy like millwood. go out and look for relief pitching. furcal will be a black hole in a couple years if they pay him anywhere close to what he's asking for.

[Roast]

People Are making Furcal out to be this huge difference maker, sorry, he's really not.

 

- He's never batted above .300

- He's only topped a .350 OBP twice, once only by two points (granted he got on at .248 once also)

 

To be fair, in nomars worst years, he has put up equal numbers (OBP, AVG) to what furcal does year to year.

 

 

I'm not saying he's not good. He is. But he's not worth fifty million or whatever insane amount he wants.

[The Voice of Reason]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

 

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.[/quote]

 

Why should we care that the Braves organization values Furcal so highly? What do they know other than how to win 14 straight division titles. I think recognizing talent has played a part in their success.

 

Saying Nomar is currently a better shortstop than Furcal is ridiculous. If that was true, there'd be more teams interested in Nomar than Furcal and there aren't. Nomar's best days are behind him.

[goonys evil twin]

That's insane. If we don't get Giles or someone better we're not making the playoffs? Healthy rotation, bullpen help, and we make the playoffs no matter who we sign for right.

 

That's insane. No matter who?

 

Contrary to popular belief, offense does matter. You have to score runs to win. While the White Sox made it seem like all you need is pitching and defense that's not a wise way to build a team. The Cubs were bottom half in runs scored last year (repeating a multi year trend due to never addressing the OBP/BB problem). That was primarily due to OF production. Yet, contrary to another myth, LF was the least of the problems. LF wasn't good, but it ranked higher in the NL than both CF and RF did (16th/15th respectively). 3 of the top 5 pitching teams in the NL last year didn't even make the playoffs. Simply getting healthy in the pitching department and moving up to a top 5 spot there does nothing to guarantee success. Offense must be improved, and improving SS alone won't get it done.

[CubsWin]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.

 

A career 750 OPS player is not a difference maker, especially when you have a minimum wage guy on your team that would probably put up a 700 OPS pretty easily. A difference maker is a guy with a 900+ OPS, or if you are a SS, you better be an 825-850 OPS guy at least.

I agree that a player who puts up a 750 OPS is not a difference maker. Especially on a Cubs team like this one that really needs Brian Giles or someone like him in their line-up.

 

However, I believe that a 750-760 OPS would be the worst that Furcal is likely to produce over the next several seasons. In 2002, he put up a .710 OPS. But since then, he has put up OPSs of .795, .758, .777. Be that as it may, a SS that has an OPS below .800 still isn't a difference maker with the bat. But what happens when we factor in his range and arm at SS and his ability to steal bases efficiently?

 

I agree that he alone will not improve the Cubs very much, but he is better than his OPS makes him look when the bigger picture is considered.

[TB_11]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.

 

He's not a difference maker. He's an above average shortstop offensively (he was 8th in the majors in both OBP and SLG from the shortstop position), with good defense and solid speed. I'd want Furcal on my team, but not at $50M for 5 years.

[JeffH]

If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season.

 

That's insane. If we don't get Giles or someone better we're not making the playoffs? Healthy rotation, bullpen help, and we make the playoffs no matter who we sign for right.

 

So, if tomorrow Giles signs with the Yankees and the Reds and Phillies announce that Dunn and Abreu, respectively, are off the table and will not be traded, Hendry should completely shut down his offseason operations?

 

Add Furcal and Pierre at the top of the lineup. Get some luck, healthwise. Add a top starting pitcher and a top setup reliever. Add someone like Kearns or Wilkerson (maybe both - I've heard rumblings that the Cubs may not be 100% committed to just completely turning LF over to Murton).

 

A team like that is absolutely guaranteed to be no better than .500? Give me a break. Try giving the hyperbole a rest.

 

All that said - sign Giles!

[NorthsideAvenger]

People Are making Furcal out to be this huge difference maker, sorry, he's really not.

 

- He's never batted above .300

- He's only topped a .350 OBP twice, once only by two points (granted he got on at .248 once also)

 

To be fair, in nomars worst years, he has put up equal numbers (OBP, AVG) to what furcal does year to year.

 

 

I'm not saying he's not good. He is. But he's not worth fifty million or whatever insane amount he wants.

 

Furcal isn't going to get $50 million, unless the Mets are the dumb team who wants him. Furcal is going to get around 38 to 42 mill over 4 yrs, period. I still want Furcal.

 

And on Wilkerson....hello people we already have a "Wilkerson type" player on the team....he's call Matt Murton.

[goonys evil twin]

And on Wilkerson....hello people we already have a "Wilkerson type" player on the team....he's call Matt Murton.

 

So once you get a "type" of player, you can't get another similar (and I'm not even sure I like the comparison)? Wilkerson is a leadoff/CF who gets on base a lot. I don't see how there would be a problem if he became a Cub.

[Roast]

You are comparing Nomar at his best...He's done playing short stop for any period of time...If you want his bat in the line up you are going to have to play in some where,,,,I think he might be done

 

No i'm not. I gave his final stats from every year since 2000. But to be fair, lets compare nomars WORST years to Furcals BEST.

 

2003 Furcal: .292/.352/.443 15 HR 61 RBI

2005 Nomar: .283/.320/.452 9 HR 30 RBI

(62 Games)

 

How about nomars worst season of 140+ games?

 

2003 Furcal: .292/.352/.443 15 HR 61 RBI

2003 Nomar: .301/.345/.524 28 HR 105 RBI

 

BTW, you may say nomars problem is injury, but over 10 years he has only played less than 130 games 4 times, and one was his rookie year.

[CubsWin]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.

On this Cubs team, Furcal alone won't be a difference maker. I think that is what Goony has been trying to say.

 

If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season.

That's insane. If we don't get Giles or someone better we're not making the playoffs? Healthy rotation, bullpen help, and we make the playoffs no matter who we sign for right.

Careful, nick23, thats not what I said.

 

I don't see the Cubs chances of making the playoffs getting noticeably better if all they do is sign Furcal and get just anyone to play RF. The Cubs had a decent chance of making the playoffs in '05, but injuries to 2 of their 3 best pitchers and their starting SS, 3B and 2B, poor performances from some of their bullpen guys, their CFer and LFers, and some poor decisions by their manager made their decent chance evaporate.

[CubinNY]

You are comparing Nomar at his best...He's done playing short stop for any period of time...If you want his bat in the line up you are going to have to play in some where,,,,I think he might be done

 

No i'm not. I gave his final stats from every year since 2000. But to be fair, lets compare nomars WORST years to Furcals BEST.

 

2003 Furcal: .292/.352/.443 15 HR 61 RBI

2005 Nomar: .283/.320/.452 9 HR 30 RBI

(62 Games)

 

How about nomars worst season of 140+ games?

 

2003 Furcal: .292/.352/.443 15 HR 61 RBI

2003 Nomar: .301/.345/.524 28 HR 105 RBI

 

BTW, you may say nomars problem is injury, but over 10 years he has only played less than 130 games 4 times, and one was his rookie year.

 

Nice post Roast.

 

And BTW who said Nomar was washed up as a SS?

[goonys evil twin]

I don't see the Cubs chances of making the playoffs getting noticeably better if all they do is sign Furcal and get just anyone to play RF. The Cubs had a decent chance of making the playoffs in '05, but injuries to 2 of their 3 best pitchers and their starting SS, 3B and 2B, poor performances from some of their bullpen guys, their CFer and LFers, and some poor decisions by their manager made their decent chance evaporate.

 

Well said.

 

This team is talented. They already have a shot for the playoffs if everything works out. However, I hate hoping for the best with baseball teams, bad stuff does happen. I'm all about maximizing your chances at whatever payroll slot you have. Given a top 5 payroll, there's no reason this team can't be a favorite with many great players and both solid pitching and hitting. There's no excuse to settle for mediocrity from the offense and just hope for health, pitching and defense to carry the day. They can afford to drastically improve this team's chances, so there's no justification to fail to do so.

[CubsWin]

If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season.

 

That's insane. If we don't get Giles or someone better we're not making the playoffs? Healthy rotation, bullpen help, and we make the playoffs no matter who we sign for right.

 

So, if tomorrow Giles signs with the Yankees and the Reds and Phillies announce that Dunn and Abreu, respectively, are off the table and will not be traded, Hendry should completely shut down his offseason operations?

 

Add Furcal and Pierre at the top of the lineup. Get some luck, healthwise. Add a top starting pitcher and a top setup reliever. Add someone like Kearns or Wilkerson (maybe both - I've heard rumblings that the Cubs may not be 100% committed to just completely turning LF over to Murton).

 

A team like that is absolutely guaranteed to be no better than .500? Give me a break. Try giving the hyperbole a rest.

 

All that said - sign Giles!

You're taking things out of context. I'll make you a deal. I give the hyperbole a rest when you stop reading hyperbole into my statements. Go back and re-read, please.

 

I never said that they had no chance of making the playoffs. I said their chances wouldn't improve much over the kind of chances they had last season. If the Cubs had had "some luck, healthwise" last year and had just average performances from LF, CF and the bullpen, they probably would have been in the hunt.

 

I also never said that Hendry should shut down for the off-season. That was you.

 

What I did say was that if all Hendry got was Furcal, then the Cubs wouldn't be improved very much at all. (Hey! That rhymes!) I never said that if he got Furcal, another great starter, another great reliever, Wilkerson in RF and the team stayed healthy...

 

Please, read more carefully before reacting.

[JeffH]

What I did say was that if all Hendry got was Furcal, then the Cubs wouldn't be improved very much at all.

 

That's not what you said at all.

 

Be careful, don't trip while you're backtracking.

[CubsWin]

What I did say was that if all Hendry got was Furcal, then the Cubs wouldn't be improved very much at all.

 

That's not what you said at all.

 

Be careful, don't trip while you're backtracking.

Please, show me the quote then.

 

And you can stop be rude while you are at it unless you are wanting a visit from Modzilla.

 

I said that if Hendry signed Furcal and just anyone to play RF, then the Cubs wouldn't have any better chance at making the playoffs than they did in '05. And I stand ready to civily debate the validity of that statement.

[Roast]

 

Be careful, don't trip while you're backtracking.

 

I'm not a mod, but i think i'm in the right in asking you to keep the personal stuff to a minimum.

[CubsWin]

By the way, does anyone know Rafael Furcal's actual birthdate?

 

The Baseball Cube has him being born on 8/24/80.

 

ESPN has him being born on 8/24/78.

 

MLB.com and Baseball Reference have him being born on 10/24/77.

 

:-k

[JeffH]

Your quote:

 

"If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season."

 

I took this at face value. Cubs sign Furcal. Cubs don't sign Giles or acquire anyone like him for RF. Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season. The only way a reasonable person can read this is to assume that you meant regardless of what else they do.

 

The fact of the matter is that the Cubs could play Jose Macias in RF next season and still have a better shot at the playoffs than they did last season - if they properly address the remainder of the ballclub.

 

Rude? I'm attacking the post, not the poster.