Perspective on Furcal from Atlanta

[JeffH]

I'm not a mod, but i think i'm in the right in asking you to keep the personal stuff to a minimum.

 

How's that personal?

[jtownie]

By the way, does anyone know Rafael Furcal's actual birthdate?

 

The Baseball Cube has him being born on 8/24/80.

 

ESPN has him being born on 8/24/78.

 

MLB.com and Baseball Reference have him being born on 10/24/77.

 

:-k

 

A lot, if not most, articles I have read always quote him as the "28 year old free-agent" I believe. So I am going with MLB...plus I think they would be more official than ESPN.

[Roast]

I'm not a mod, but i think i'm in the right in asking you to keep the personal stuff to a minimum.

 

How's that personal?

 

"Be careful, don't trip while you're backtracking." sounds fairly offensive to me. I think the mods will back me up on this one. If not you'll have my full appologies.

[goonys evil twin]

The fact of the matter is that the Cubs could play Jose Macias in RF next season and still have a better shot at the playoffs than they did last season - if they properly address the remainder of the ballclub.

 

That is about as far from a fact as you can get.

 

RF is the biggest problem on the team. It's the only hole where they do not already have an internal option who at least stands a chance of producing average numbers. It's the one spot where they absolutely without question suck right now.

[hawkeyecub]

I'm not a mod, but i think i'm in the right in asking you to keep the personal stuff to a minimum.

 

How's that personal?

 

"Be careful, don't trip while you're backtracking." sounds fairly offensive to me. I think the mods will back me up on this one. If not you'll have my full appologies.

 

How in the world is that offensive? I've seen much worse from more of the regular posters and it's not been called out.

 

Good Lord, I think the sensitivity meter needs to be turned down a notch around here sometimes. Things don't need to always be taken so seriously.

[CubsWin]

Your quote:

 

"If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season."

 

I took this at face value. Cubs sign Furcal. Cubs don't sign Giles or acquire anyone like him for RF. Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season. The only way a reasonable person can read this is to assume that you meant regardless of what else they do.

 

The fact of the matter is that the Cubs could play Jose Macias in RF next season and still have a better shot at the playoffs than they did last season - if they properly address the remainder of the ballclub.

 

Rude? I'm attacking the post, not the poster.

So what you are saying is that the only way a reasonable person could read that statement is to assume that the person who wrote is completely unreasonable and not give them the benefit of the doubt?

 

Did you write a post asking me if thats what I meant before making your assumption and attacking the idea you mistakenly thought I was putting forward?

 

You also assumed that by saying the Cubs would have no better chance at making the playoffs than they did this season that I was saying that they wouldn't make it at all. I thought they had a pretty decent chance of making the playoffs with Dubois in LF and Burnitz in RF given Nomar and the pitching staff. So...

[CubsWin]

I'm not a mod, but i think i'm in the right in asking you to keep the personal stuff to a minimum.

 

How's that personal?

 

"Be careful, don't trip while you're backtracking." sounds fairly offensive to me. I think the mods will back me up on this one. If not you'll have my full appologies.

 

How in the world is that offensive? I've seen much worse from more of the regular posters and it's not been called out.

 

Good Lord, I think the sensitivity meter needs to be turned down a notch around here sometimes. Things don't need to always be taken so seriously.

Its not so much offensive as it is a personal and rude comment, a slap directed at the writer of a post and not directed at the content of a post.

 

We have an agreement to criticize the content of a post and not the writer on this board.

 

I asked nicely for him/her to please read more carefully and he/she responds by accusing me of backtracking and telling me not to trip. It was rude and uncalled for.

[CubfaninCA]

Get a real good SS like Furcal and the Cubs have a better shot @ Giles. Can't see him picking Chicago over St. Louis w/ Cedeno @ SS and Murton in LF....

[CubfaninCA]

Ah. The Lifetime board. :)

[Mizzou]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.

On this Cubs team, Furcal alone won't be a difference maker. I think that is what Goony has been trying to say.

 

If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season.

 

That's absurd. Furcal is much much MUCH better than Neifi, who was the primary shortstop next year. You're essentially saying that if we don't sign Giles, or someone of similar production for RF, then we wont have a chance to make the playoffs? That's nowhere near the truth.

 

EDIT: I see this has already been covered.

[CubfaninCA]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.

On this Cubs team, Furcal alone won't be a difference maker. I think that is what Goony has been trying to say.

 

If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season.

 

That's absurd. Furcal is much much MUCH better than Neifi, who was the primary shortstop next year. You're essentially saying that if we don't sign Giles, or someone of similar production for RF, then we wont have a chance to make the playoffs? That's nowhere near the truth.

 

EDIT: I see this has already been covered.

 

The Cubs can win w/ someone like Craig Monroe in RF, if Prior and Wood stay healthy for a change. Furcal and Pierre would make a big difference at the top of the order. It beats the heck outta Patterson & Neifi...

[Cubzfan64]

Personally I have no problem with paying Furcal $9-11mil per season, the only thing I'm concerned about is the length of the contract. I don't like 5 years and truth be told I'm not sure I would even like 4. Problem with free agency is you'll almost always find SOME team out there willing to bid against you forcing you to overpay either in $/year or # of years.

 

If I were Hendry and the ownership gave me the spending option, I would bid for Furcal based on $/year and offer him the most per season for the shortest time period I could convince him to take (wishful thinking being 3 years). Give the ballplayer (and unfortunately their agents) something to think about... "Do I want $11mil/season for 3 years with some incentives beyond that, or do I want $9mil/year for 4 years?"

[YearofDaCubs]

Sure but not signing Furcal because we are 1 mil off and playing Nefi everyday will guarantee the Cubs not to make the post season...Isnt everybody tired of settling.....Think about last season...We went into last year losing 75 hrs(or so) from the corners and replaced them with no production....How could we have even thought our team was better from the year before when we came up short.....At least make the effort to try and win with the best team......I hate waiting for lightning to strike every year and someone to have a career year

 

Why not let Ronny start at SS and spend the money on a difference maker? There's also guys like Lugo out there who is a small step down from Furcal, but much less expensive.

I love how you don't even consider Furcal a difference maker. I'm sure there are some people in Atlanta that might disagree with you.

On this Cubs team, Furcal alone won't be a difference maker. I think that is what Goony has been trying to say.

 

If the Cubs sign Furcal but miss out on a Giles-like upgrade in RF, the Cubs won't have any better of a shot at making the playoffs than they did this season.

 

That's absurd. Furcal is much much MUCH better than Neifi, who was the primary shortstop next year. You're essentially saying that if we don't sign Giles, or someone of similar production for RF, then we wont have a chance to make the playoffs? That's nowhere near the truth.

 

EDIT: I see this has already been covered.

 

The Cubs can win w/ someone like Craig Monroe in RF, if Prior and Wood stay healthy for a change. Furcal and Pierre would make a big difference at the top of the order. It beats the heck outta Patterson & Neifi...

I personally think even with Prior and Wood healthy if we do no tupgrade our offense we are done for. How many time could we not score enough runs even when our pitchers had a gem of a game? No thank you..I'm not relying on injury prone pitchers this year. We need an upgrade on offense no question.

[jmajew]

There is no way Furcal is worth more than 9 million a year. I see him as being slightly better than Jimmy Rollins and he got a 5 year 40 million dollar deal. Jimmy Rollins is also two years younger and he is just as good of a defensive player as Furcal.

 

Rollins BA/OBP/OPS

2003 263/320/707

2004 289/348/803

2005 290/338/769

 

Furcal

2003 292/352/795

2004 279/344/758

2005 284/348/777

 

If I were the Cubs the most I'd give Furcal would be 4 years and 34 million. He is worth a half million more a year than Rollins. That is it.

[RockTheIvy]

There is no way Furcal is worth more than 9 million a year. I see him as being slightly better than Jimmy Rollins and he got a 5 year 40 million dollar deal. Jimmy Rollins is also two years younger and he is just as good of a defensive player as Furcal.

 

Rollins BA/OBP/OPS

2003 263/320/707

2004 289/348/803

2005 290/338/769

 

Furcal

2003 292/352/795

2004 279/344/758

2005 284/348/777

 

If I were the Cubs the most I'd give Furcal would be 4 years and 34 million. He is worth a half million more a year than Rollins. That is it.

 

Good point. I think that Furcal's contract should be similar to Rollins'.

[TB_11]

There is no way Furcal is worth more than 9 million a year. I see him as being slightly better than Jimmy Rollins and he got a 5 year 40 million dollar deal. Jimmy Rollins is also two years younger and he is just as good of a defensive player as Furcal.

 

Rollins BA/OBP/OPS

2003 263/320/707

2004 289/348/803

2005 290/338/769

 

Furcal

2003 292/352/795

2004 279/344/758

2005 284/348/777

 

If I were the Cubs the most I'd give Furcal would be 4 years and 34 million. He is worth a half million more a year than Rollins. That is it.

 

FWIW the Rollins contract was widely seen as dumb (I honestly can't think of a better word for what Ed Wade did).

 

Link to some NSBBers reactions

[stitchface]

Personally I have no problem with paying Furcal $9-11mil per season, the only thing I'm concerned about is the length of the contract. I don't like 5 years and truth be told I'm not sure I would even like 4. Problem with free agency is you'll almost always find SOME team out there willing to bid against you forcing you to overpay either in $/year or # of years.

 

If I were Hendry and the ownership gave me the spending option, I would bid for Furcal based on $/year and offer him the most per season for the shortest time period I could convince him to take (wishful thinking being 3 years). Give the ballplayer (and unfortunately their agents) something to think about... "Do I want $11mil/season for 3 years with some incentives beyond that, or do I want $9mil/year for 4 years?"

 

BP had an article last week that showed exactly what you just said. FA are always overpriced. So, you aren't getting full value on the field. However, do we really care if the cubs win the WS?

[stitchface]

If Cedeno keeps hitting, I think you'll see the Cubs pass on Nomar, re-sign Neifi and break in Cedeno gradually like they're doing with Dubois.

 

Wow, maybe this tim guy knows something!

[jmajew]

There is no way Furcal is worth more than 9 million a year. I see him as being slightly better than Jimmy Rollins and he got a 5 year 40 million dollar deal. Jimmy Rollins is also two years younger and he is just as good of a defensive player as Furcal.

 

Rollins BA/OBP/OPS

2003 263/320/707

2004 289/348/803

2005 290/338/769

 

Furcal

2003 292/352/795

2004 279/344/758

2005 284/348/777

 

If I were the Cubs the most I'd give Furcal would be 4 years and 34 million. He is worth a half million more a year than Rollins. That is it.

 

FWIW the Rollins contract was widely seen as dumb (I honestly can't think of a better word for what Ed Wade did).

 

Link to some NSBBers reactions

 

I agree it was dump. I was just trying to justify why the Cubs shouldn't even offer Furcal more than 8.5 mil a year.

[nick23]

That's insane. If we don't get Giles or someone better we're not making the playoffs? Healthy rotation, bullpen help, and we make the playoffs no matter who we sign for right.

 

That's insane. No matter who?

 

Contrary to popular belief, offense does matter. You have to score runs to win. While the White Sox made it seem like all you need is pitching and defense that's not a wise way to build a team. The Cubs were bottom half in runs scored last year (repeating a multi year trend due to never addressing the OBP/BB problem). That was primarily due to OF production. Yet, contrary to another myth, LF was the least of the problems. LF wasn't good, but it ranked higher in the NL than both CF and RF did (16th/15th respectively). 3 of the top 5 pitching teams in the NL last year didn't even make the playoffs. Simply getting healthy in the pitching department and moving up to a top 5 spot there does nothing to guarantee success. Offense must be improved, and improving SS alone won't get it done.

 

Sorry double post

Edited November 16, 2005 by nick23

[nick23]

That's insane. If we don't get Giles or someone better we're not making the playoffs? Healthy rotation, bullpen help, and we make the playoffs no matter who we sign for right.

 

That's insane. No matter who?

 

Contrary to popular belief, offense does matter. You have to score runs to win. While the White Sox made it seem like all you need is pitching and defense that's not a wise way to build a team. The Cubs were bottom half in runs scored last year (repeating a multi year trend due to never addressing the OBP/BB problem). That was primarily due to OF production. Yet, contrary to another myth, LF was the least of the problems. LF wasn't good, but it ranked higher in the NL than both CF and RF did (16th/15th respectively). 3 of the top 5 pitching teams in the NL last year didn't even make the playoffs. Simply getting healthy in the pitching department and moving up to a top 5 spot there does nothing to guarantee success. Offense must be improved, and improving SS alone won't get it done.

If all the rumors are true, and we sign Furcal and trade for Pierre, the offense is already greatly improved. That means we've big time improved the SS position and leadoff hitter. Pierre is a huge improvement over last years CF situation. Murton is a big improvement over last years LF situation. The only downgrade we have is 2B if we move Walker. Our playoff hopes for next year don't rest on the signing of Giles. All we have to do is improve RF somehow(which shouldn't be hard) and we have a much improved offense. Ad that with healthy SP and bullpen help and you have a vastly improved team. Do you agree?

[UK1679666180]

If all the rumors are true, and we sign Furcal and trade for Pierre, the offense is already greatly improved. That means we've big time improved the SS position and leadoff hitter. Pierre is a huge improvement over last years CF situation. Murton is a big improvement over last years LF situation. The only downgrade we have is 2B if we move Walker. Our playoff hopes for next year don't rest on the signing of Giles. All we have to do is improve RF somehow(which shouldn't be hard) and we have a much improved offense. Ad that with healthy SP and bullpen help and you have a vastly improved team. Do you agree?

 

Pierre and Furcal don't greatly improve the offense, especially if they trade Walker.

 

It improves it, but not to the point where it becomes of the better offense in the NL.

 

If someone goes into next year expecting Lee to repeat and they're going into next year with the wrong approach.

 

They'd have a much improved offense with Giles/Cedeno more so than the combo of Pierre/Furcal.

 

They'd still need a CF'er, but there are still better options over Pierre.

 

No one is saying that having Pierre and Furcal wouldn't improve the team, just that it wouldn't improve the team at a pace that would equal the salaries paid to them (or in the case of Pierre the likely players req'd to get him).

[goonys evil twin]

If all the rumors are true, and we sign Furcal and trade for Pierre, the offense is already greatly improved. That means we've big time improved the SS position and leadoff hitter. Pierre is a huge improvement over last years CF situation. Murton is a big improvement over last years LF situation. The only downgrade we have is 2B if we move Walker. Our playoff hopes for next year don't rest on the signing of Giles. All we have to do is improve RF somehow(which shouldn't be hard) and we have a much improved offense. Ad that with healthy SP and bullpen help and you have a vastly improved team. Do you agree?

 

But your just assuming better health, that's the same problem last year's plan created. You can't base your offseason improvements off of health.

 

No, Giles is not the only option in RF. But he is clearly the best, and therefore he should be the priority.

 

You can't just improve here and there and then just hope for better luck than last year. There is absolutely no justification for settling for mediocrity in RF. This team has the resources to greatly improve their chances this offseason, not go into the season with the same or similar chances they had last year. Settling for Furcal, Pierre and very little else would put them in no better position than they were in during spring training last season.

[nick23]

If all the rumors are true, and we sign Furcal and trade for Pierre, the offense is already greatly improved. That means we've big time improved the SS position and leadoff hitter. Pierre is a huge improvement over last years CF situation. Murton is a big improvement over last years LF situation. The only downgrade we have is 2B if we move Walker. Our playoff hopes for next year don't rest on the signing of Giles. All we have to do is improve RF somehow(which shouldn't be hard) and we have a much improved offense. Ad that with healthy SP and bullpen help and you have a vastly improved team. Do you agree?

 

But your just assuming better health, that's the same problem last year's plan created. You can't base your offseason improvements off of health.

 

No, Giles is not the only option in RF. But he is clearly the best, and therefore he should be the priority.

 

You can't just improve here and there and then just hope for better luck than last year. There is absolutely no justification for settling for mediocrity in RF. This team has the resources to greatly improve their chances this offseason, not go into the season with the same or similar chances they had last year. Settling for Furcal, Pierre and very little else would put them in no better position than they were in during spring training last season.

Yes you can base your offseason on improvements of health. It didn't work out for us last year. Hopefully it will this year. It worked out fine for the Cardinals last year. They assumed Carpenter and Morris were going to be healthy. They assumed right. Look, I'm not saying don't sign Giles. I'd be thrilled if we sign Giles. I'm just saying he's not the only way to improve the team. I happen to think Furcal will greatly improve the team. You don't. We just disagree.

[goonys evil twin]

Yes you can base your offseason on improvements of health. It didn't work out for us last year. Hopefully it will this year. It worked out fine for the Cardinals last year. They assumed Carpenter and Morris were going to be healthy. They assumed right. Look, I'm not saying don't sign Giles. I'd be thrilled if we sign Giles. I'm just saying he's not the only way to improve the team. I happen to think Furcal will greatly improve the team. You don't. We just disagree.

 

If you're a top 5 payroll with $30m to spend, and you rely heavily on improved health to increase your team, your GM is an imcompetent moron.

 

This isn't an $85m payroll team that has to cut corners in spots and hope for things to work out. The Cubs' front office has been given the resources to pretty much guarantee a playoff spot, and make themselves among the favorites to win the world series, not just be in the picture.