RotoAuthority - has the Cubs signing 6 of the Top 50 FA

[BigbadB]

It's not just the coaching decision. Everyday that I open up ESPN Insider, I have to read these two quotes about Nomar:

 

"Chicago is where I want to be and I hope they see that. Meanwhile, it doesn't appear as though the Cubs will entertain bringing him back".

 

Rumors are they want a better defender at 2nd base, which in my opinion will also likely mean that they will sacrifice offense for defense. I don't like this either.

 

People want to address obp yet bring back one of the biggest obp killers. If Nomar goes down again, the Cubs are stuck w/ a backup again. Yes, Cedeno could be alright, but as goony says, there's no guarantee of that.

 

Who is the OBP killer you are talking about?

 

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

 

Bonds had an OBP of .000 during that same stretch last year. I'd take him and Nomar next year. I'll take that gamble.

[DesMoinesCub]

Nomar has said he would be willing to change positions correct???

Has he said where he would like to move to?

 

What if we get Furcal to play short, move Nomar to 2nd, and have Cedano back up both short and 2nd. If ARam gets hurt, we still could move Nomar over to 3rd.

 

This would still mean we only have Murton in the OF (IMO he deserves to be penciled in next year) so we still need to get OF.

 

IF- ARam-Furcal-Nomar-Lee- If anyone gets hurt, Cedano goes in at SS or 2nd with Nomar moving to 3rd.

 

So...who plays first? Hopefully nobody, but this is where TWalker comes in. Why can't he play 1st on certain days, 2nd on certain days and be a viable option to sub in the OF. With his production, this would be a fairly cheap option, but how cheap is that for a bench player?

 

Again, this would still require us signing Furcal and hopefully Giles.

[goonys evil twin]

It's not just the coaching decision. Everyday that I open up ESPN Insider, I have to read these two quotes about Nomar:

 

"Chicago is where I want to be and I hope they see that. Meanwhile, it doesn't appear as though the Cubs will entertain bringing him back".

 

Rumors are they want a better defender at 2nd base, which in my opinion will also likely mean that they will sacrifice offense for defense. I don't like this either.

 

People want to address obp yet bring back one of the biggest obp killers. If Nomar goes down again, the Cubs are stuck w/ a backup again. Yes, Cedeno could be alright, but as goony says, there's no guarantee of that.

 

Who is the OBP killer you are talking about?

 

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

 

Going 0 for 20 would give you an OBP of .000, going 0 for 0 means nothing.

[CubfaninCA]

The Cubs started the season w/ Patterson, Walker and Nomar @ the top of the order. Not bad at all. Things fell apart pretty quickly w/ Walker and Nomar getting hurt and Patterson really struggling. Then Hendry tried to fix things w/ the trade for Lawton, which some prefer to absolutely ignore. Unfortunately, Lawton choked big time.

 

Nothing went right this year. Yet ironically some want to bring back Nomar & Walker and count on those two again. Those two's lack of durability and the subpar pitching were the big problems. It sounds like Hendry's on the right path by going after Furcal and another starter. Matt Clement was nothing special, but his loss really hurt this year. Yes the Maddux signing was not great, but who would have replaced him @ a cheaper cost?? Wellemeyer? Mitre? Rich Hill? Angel Guzman? Guess they could have never signed Maddux and brought back Clement, but there's not much of a gain there.

 

Lawton bombed, but as bad as he bombed as the Cubs lead off hitter, he wasn't any worse than Patterson, Perez and Macias. Between the 4, they had OBP's of .263, .263, .269 and .270. Lawton had the .269. This horrible combination accounted for 354 at bats in the lead off spot. The only thing that salvaged what might have been the all time worst OBP from a lead off spot from any team in the history of baseball was Jerry Hairston Jr.

 

The Cubs waited too long to try and do something about the glaring hole at the top of the line up. What's worse is they had in house candidates that either sat on the bench or played at the bottom. I applauded the effort to fix the problem in going after Lawton, but they were basically already done by that point anyway. When Lawton didn't work out, they could have kept searching (Murton, Murton, Murton), but went back to has beens and never was's in Perez and Macias.

 

Perhaps Murton was better off batting 6th and 7th. There's not as much pressure as batting 2nd.

 

Perhaps you just like to argue for no particular reason. Check Murton's OBP when hitting at the top of the order. He didn't get many at bats, but the few he did were WAY, WAY, WAY better than Neifi, Macias, Lawton and Patterson. Also, look at how well Neifi does at the bottom of the order.

 

Some people are just better suited to hit at the top of the order and others are better suited to hit at the bottom. It's a manager's job to find each guys niche. Most of Dusty's homework was already done for him, however. Neifi has never been a good candidate to hit at the top of the order. Yet, he did it anyway.

 

Our best lead off option never hit lead off all year. Todd Walker. He had 2 lead off at bats in 2005, compared to 100 in the 6 hole.

 

I don't mind you wishing to argue with me, as it helps me further my point. But, some of these arguments are getting a bit lame. You can either show some patience at the plate or you can't. Murton can, Neifi can't. By that deduction alone, Murton is a better candidate to hit at the top of the order. Period!

 

Just to point out how wrong you are about how much more difficult it is for a rookie to hit at the top of the order, Cedeno got 24 at bats in the 2 hole this year, and he hit .292 with a .346 OBP. Once again, way better than Macias, Neifi, Patterson or Lawton.

 

Was Dusty so magical that he could pick the spots that these guys would succeed? If he were that magical, why did this team suck so bad last year? He had his opportunities to try something new (like giving the rookies more top of the order at bats for Lee), but Cedeno and Murton were slid aside for the wonderfully talented at nothing, Jose Macias.

 

PERHAPS, I'm just more willing to give Baker & Hendry the benefit of the doubt from time to time. They've been around the game for a long time. I'm just a mere armchair coach. I know it's in vogue to rip Baker for everything, but I respect that he played the game, and maybe it is a good idea not to throw a prospect into the deep end of the pool.

 

Perhaps it's a good idea for Baker to watch and learn how Bobby Cox threw all 17 of his rookies last year into the deep end of the pool, on their way to another 1st place finish. Different coaching philosophies. One worked quite well. One doesn't.

 

One even has the opportunity to CORRECT his flawed thinking after the 3rd or 4th day in a row of 1-8 .125 OBP from the top two spots in the line up (Macias/Perez) while Lee went 4-4 again. I've made mistakes a 2nd or 3rd time before. I'm human. But, he does them over and over and sits there scratching his head wondering what the problem is.

 

THE PROBLEM IS LETTING BAD HITTERS HIT.

 

Atlanta's farm systems is light years ahead of the Cubs. Bobby Cox has it made. Schuerholtz or whoever runs that system is a drafting god.

[BigbadB]

"Stop gaps" and "getting guys on the cheap" cause they're injury prone is what has got this team into trouble in the past. Furcal's A LOT less likely to get hurt.

 

Stop gaps and getting guys on the cheap is not the only way you can really screw up a team. Bad trades, releasing guys that shouldn't be released, devaluing players through the media, putting all your marbles in one sack, etc.....are other ways you can get in trouble.

 

Nomar wants to be a Cub. He has already proven he would sign an incentive laden deal. If he gets hurt, he doesn't reach his incentives. Period. No real loss.

 

I also said I'd be fine with going after Furcal. But, Giles needs to be the #1 priority.

[CubfaninCA]

It's not just the coaching decision. Everyday that I open up ESPN Insider, I have to read these two quotes about Nomar:

 

"Chicago is where I want to be and I hope they see that. Meanwhile, it doesn't appear as though the Cubs will entertain bringing him back".

 

Rumors are they want a better defender at 2nd base, which in my opinion will also likely mean that they will sacrifice offense for defense. I don't like this either.

 

People want to address obp yet bring back one of the biggest obp killers. If Nomar goes down again, the Cubs are stuck w/ a backup again. Yes, Cedeno could be alright, but as goony says, there's no guarantee of that.

 

Who is the OBP killer you are talking about?

 

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

 

Bonds had an OBP of .000 during that same stretch last year. I'd take him and Nomar next year. I'll take that gamble.

 

I'll remember this discussion. If you're right I'll applaud you @ the end of next year. If wrong, I'll give you a some Dusty treatment. :)

 

I take it you spend a lot of time @ Barona. ;)

[BigbadB]

Atlanta's farm systems is light years ahead of the Cubs. Bobby Cox has it made. Schuerholtz or whoever runs that system is a drafting god.

 

Atlanta's farm system could be 17 light years ahead of the Cubs. What does that have to do with starting Cedeno over a crap veteran player?

 

Dusty's philosophy is that rookies don't deserve to just step right in and produce. They have to take their lumps sitting on the bench and if they can produce in spot duty (which hardly few people can), then they can have another start. If they fail in that start, it's an I told you so.

 

Cox gives those guys the opportunity to succeed. If he did it Dusty Baker's way, the Braves would have finished in 2nd place or worse running the horrible Raul Mondesi and Brian Jordan out there everyday.

[BigbadB]

It's not just the coaching decision. Everyday that I open up ESPN Insider, I have to read these two quotes about Nomar:

 

"Chicago is where I want to be and I hope they see that. Meanwhile, it doesn't appear as though the Cubs will entertain bringing him back".

 

Rumors are they want a better defender at 2nd base, which in my opinion will also likely mean that they will sacrifice offense for defense. I don't like this either.

 

People want to address obp yet bring back one of the biggest obp killers. If Nomar goes down again, the Cubs are stuck w/ a backup again. Yes, Cedeno could be alright, but as goony says, there's no guarantee of that.

 

Who is the OBP killer you are talking about?

 

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

 

Bonds had an OBP of .000 during that same stretch last year. I'd take him and Nomar next year. I'll take that gamble.

 

I'll remember this discussion. If you're right I'll applaud you @ the end of next year. If wrong, I'll give you a some Dusty treatment. :)

 

I take it you spend a lot of time @ Barona. ;)

 

Never been there. Drove by it on my way through Cuyamaca National Park, but that's the closest I've been. I do my gambling in Vegas. :wink:

 

But, I'm not the gambler you think I am. I personally see letting Nomar walk and gambling you can get Furcal as an even bigger gamble than Nomar possibly getting injured again next year. I'm not willing to gamble that Nomar walks, Furcal stays in Atlanta and Cedeno or Neifi is our everyday shortstop. That's the gamble I won't take.

[AAApittsburgh]

Only 5 rightfielders had an ops over .850 this year (Vlad, Giles, Sheff, Abreu, and Jenkins). The Cubs have little shot @ any of these guys.

I think we can get Jenkins actually. And he wouldn't be a terrible option if we don't get Giles.

 

And people want to get rid of Nomar because of injury concerns.

 

Jenkins, when healthy, is about a .270/35/100 hitter. But when healthy.

Well, I don't want to get rid of Nomar.

 

And I'd be fine with Jenkins in RF as long as they're still getting good production from other spots like CF. This wouldn't be bad:

 

walker, 2b

nomar, ss

lee, 1b

aram, 3b

jenkins, rf

bradley, cf

murton, lf

barrett, c

[Guest]

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

This Nomar hate seems to be clouding your math skills. Nomar didn't have a zero OBP while he was sitting on the DL, he had an undefined OBP on the DL. (Zero devided by zero isn't zero, nor is it infinity... it's undefined.) C'mon... that's basic Calc stuff right there. ;)

 

I, for one, still say Nomar should be option #1 for our 2006 SS. I don't see the need to grossly overpay for a mediocre bat just because he's slightly less likely to spend significant time on the DL.

[CuseCubFan69]

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

This Nomar hate seems to be clouding your math skills. Nomar didn't have a zero OBP while he was sitting on the DL, he had an undefined OBP on the DL. (Zero devided by zero isn't zero, nor is it infinity... it's undefined.) C'mon... that's basic Calc stuff right there. ;)

 

I, for one, still say Nomar should be option #1 for our 2006 SS. I don't see the need to grossly overpay for a mediocre bat just because he's slightly less likely to spend significant time on the DL.

 

I agree with you BK but...a leadoff hitter has to be found.

[TheDude]

I'm reserving final judgment once this offseason is over. However, I'm not liking the way it's starting.

That's a bit harsh considering the offseason hasn't even started yet, isn't it?

 

The offseason started October 2 after the game. Resigning all the coaches was a decision made in the offseason. That's the only thing that's been done, and it was a terrible move.

 

I suppose because the support coaching staff all re-signed 1 year deals does make it an offseason move, but honestly, it weighs with so little significance that it is practically irrelevent and a non-story. So the whole support coaching staff re-signed with one year contracts? The Cubs weren't expected to make any imminent coaching moves this offseason, and I'm pretty most folks expect Dusty's end to be the time for various coaching changes.

 

The re-signing of Dempster is the only thing that could be construed as an offseason transaction of significance made by the Cubs so far, and only with a little imagination, and it was a pretty solid move. So if we want to count Dempster, then the team is off to a good start. If we don't want to count Demspter, then the team has yet to make any real moves.

[Guest]

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

This Nomar hate seems to be clouding your math skills. Nomar didn't have a zero OBP while he was sitting on the DL, he had an undefined OBP on the DL. (Zero devided by zero isn't zero, nor is it infinity... it's undefined.) C'mon... that's basic Calc stuff right there. ;)

 

I, for one, still say Nomar should be option #1 for our 2006 SS. I don't see the need to grossly overpay for a mediocre bat just because he's slightly less likely to spend significant time on the DL.

 

I agree with you BK but...a leadoff hitter has to be found.

Which is why I also want Walker back. If we don't get a CF who is up to the task this offseason he'll be fine in that role.

[CuseCubFan69]

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

This Nomar hate seems to be clouding your math skills. Nomar didn't have a zero OBP while he was sitting on the DL, he had an undefined OBP on the DL. (Zero devided by zero isn't zero, nor is it infinity... it's undefined.) C'mon... that's basic Calc stuff right there. ;)

 

I, for one, still say Nomar should be option #1 for our 2006 SS. I don't see the need to grossly overpay for a mediocre bat just because he's slightly less likely to spend significant time on the DL.

 

I agree with you BK but...a leadoff hitter has to be found.

Which is why I also want Walker back. If we don't get a CF who is up to the task this offseason he'll be fine in that role.

 

And I assume you think the Cubs will have a manager too? :D

 

I don't see that happening BK, not with Baker. I agree with it but it just isn't going to happen. ](*,)

[Bluescale]

Which is why I also want Walker back. If we don't get a CF who is up to the task this offseason he'll be fine in that role.

 

I would rather put Murton in that role, with Walker as a backup option. The thought of having Murton, Walker and Giles available for the top two spots makes me so happy...

[Bluescale]

They got to the NLCS with this coaching staff.

 

They got the to NLCS because the rest of the division was fairly weak. 88 wins doesn't put the Cubs even *close* to winning the division, and the wildcard shouldn't be a goal. If the Cardinals had been as good in 2003 as they have been the last two years, the Cubs would have been watching the playoffs from home that year too...

[Guest]

Which is why I also want Walker back. If we don't get a CF who is up to the task this offseason he'll be fine in that role.

 

I would rather put Murton in that role, with Walker as a backup option. The thought of having Murton, Walker and Giles available for the top two spots makes me so happy...

Murton leading off had occurred to me as well. Judging by his pre-2005 minor-league numbers he seems decently suited to the role. He showed enough pop this past season, however, to make me think twice about hitting him there. If his power from this season continues, I think it's kind of a waste to put him in the leadoff spot. If it came down to Walker/Murton for the top two slots I think I'd bat Todd first for that reason. (Ignoring the convential wisdom of having a righty in the two slot.)

[rawaction]

They got to the NLCS with this coaching staff.

 

They got the to NLCS because the rest of the division was fairly weak. 88 wins doesn't put the Cubs even *close* to winning the division, and the wildcard shouldn't be a goal. If the Cardinals had been as good in 2003 as they have been the last two years, the Cubs would have been watching the playoffs from home that year too...

 

I just said that the Cubs have had a little success with this coaching staff. They aren't losing because of the coaching staff. They are losing because the players are not collectively good enough to win. Go out and sign Giles, greatly improve CF, and keep the infield intact, sure up the pen and the rotation (which they can afford), they'll win again.

[UK1679666180]

They got to the NLCS with this coaching staff.

 

They got the to NLCS because the rest of the division was fairly weak. 88 wins doesn't put the Cubs even *close* to winning the division, and the wildcard shouldn't be a goal. If the Cardinals had been as good in 2003 as they have been the last two years, the Cubs would have been watching the playoffs from home that year too...

 

I just said that the Cubs have had a little success with this coaching staff. They aren't losing because of the coaching staff. They are losing because the players are not collectively good enough to win. Go out and sign Giles, greatly improve CF, and keep the infield intact, sure up the pen and the rotation (which they can afford), they'll win again.

 

They can win with this coaching staff, if they improve the overall talent.

 

But, I don't think they can maximize their winning under this staff.

 

You hit it right on the head as far as needed improvements.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

This Nomar hate seems to be clouding your math skills. Nomar didn't have a zero OBP while he was sitting on the DL, he had an undefined OBP on the DL. (Zero devided by zero isn't zero, nor is it infinity... it's undefined.) C'mon... that's basic Calc stuff right there. ;)

 

I, for one, still say Nomar should be option #1 for our 2006 SS. I don't see the need to grossly overpay for a mediocre bat just because he's slightly less likely to spend significant time on the DL.

 

I agree with you BK but...a leadoff hitter has to be found.

 

That's why I'd target Giles, re-sign Nomar, and then bring in Lofton on a one-year deal.

 

My line-up:

 

CF Lofton

LF Murton

1b Lee

RF Giles

3b Ramirez

SS Garciaparra

2b Walker

C Barrett

 

I also have Cedeno to back-up all the infield positions. I'd keep Hairston to split time in CF with Lofton.

[TheDude]

They got to the NLCS with this coaching staff.

 

They got the to NLCS because the rest of the division was fairly weak. 88 wins doesn't put the Cubs even *close* to winning the division, and the wildcard shouldn't be a goal. If the Cardinals had been as good in 2003 as they have been the last two years, the Cubs would have been watching the playoffs from home that year too...

The 2003 Cardinals were not noticeably different than the 2004 or 2005 Cardinals.

 

The acquisition of Mulder is about the only appreciable difference. The emergence of Carpenter replaces the loss Williams (18 wins in 2003), and Grudz, Eckstein, Walker, Molina isn't exactly a landslide upgrade over Cairo/Hart, Renteria, Drew, Matheny.

[Bluescale]

The acquisition of Mulder is about the only appreciable difference. The emergence of Carpenter replaces the loss Williams (18 wins in 2003), and Grudz, Eckstein, Walker, Molina isn't exactly a landslide upgrade over Cairo/Hart, Renteria, Drew, Matheny.

 

Their pitching has been *SO* much better the last two year it isn't even funny...In 2003 they got a good first half out of Williams and bad pitching the rest of the way. In 2004 and 2005 they've had a healthier team, and it's shown just how much better they are than the Cubs.

[CubfaninCA]

The guy who posted an obp of .000 for 100 games this year. Let him go to LA and sit on their DL.

This Nomar hate seems to be clouding your math skills. Nomar didn't have a zero OBP while he was sitting on the DL, he had an undefined OBP on the DL. (Zero devided by zero isn't zero, nor is it infinity... it's undefined.) C'mon... that's basic Calc stuff right there. ;)

 

I, for one, still say Nomar should be option #1 for our 2006 SS. I don't see the need to grossly overpay for a mediocre bat just because he's slightly less likely to spend significant time on the DL.

 

I hate that there were 100 games where Nomar got on base a grand total of zero times. Why repeat the same mistake again??

[MPrior]

Nothing went right this year. Yet ironically some want to bring back Nomar & Walker and count on those two again. Those two's lack of durability and the subpar pitching were the big problems.

 

First off, you're saying Walker has durability problems because Carlos Lee slid into his knee? I think that's just a little silly.

 

Secondly, Nomar's injury, while very unfortunate, is a little bit of a fluke, at least as far as its severity is concerned. Chances are he will not sustain another injury next year that keeps him out for 100 games. Yes, I know he's had injury problems the last couple years, but nothing this bad.

 

Lastly, let's take a look at this in terms of things we want:

 

1.) Production from our SS

2.) For our SS to stay healthy all season

3.) To see Cedeno get significant playing time.

 

The obvious answer here is to re-sign Nomar for a relatively cheap, incentive-laden, 1-year deal. Have him start, but spell him regularly with Cedeno. That way, Cedeno gets fairly regular playing time (which we want), Nomar is more likely to stay healthy and avoid the little nagging injuries he's had problems with the last few years (which we want), and we're going to get WAY better production from our SS than we would out of Furcal (which we want).

 

Signing Furcal really only partly achieves 1 and 2, and costs way more in terms of money and years. What happens if Cedeno is so good we want him to be our SS in 2007? If we sign Nomar, we can just let him go or move him to 2B after next year. If we sign Furcal, we'd have to trade him and his fat contract to somebody else.

 

Other things we want:

 

1.) OBP

2.) A leadoff hitter.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Rafael Furcal doesn't really solve these problems as much as he seems to. His career OBP is .348, which is the same as Todd Walker's and 20 points below Nomar's. I know Nomar won't be leading off, but Walker could. So replacing Nomar with Furcal would actually LESSEN our team OBP. As far as a leadoff hitter, there are lots of people who I'd rather have than Furcal (all of whom would cost much less, leaving more money to go after Giles and bullpen and/or rotation help):

 

1. Kenny Lofton

2. Todd Walker

3. Brad Wilkerson (if we could get him in a trade)

4. Milton Bradley (ditto)

5. Heck, we could even put Adam Greenberg in there (he had a ridiculous .117 IsoD this year, putting up a .386 OBP).

 

This all seems fairly obvious to me.