10/15 College Football

[TruffleShuffle]

the only truly painful moments of my life in sports so far are ND-BC 02 and the Cubs collapse in 03

 

Indeed you are very lucky

 

-Eagles just about every year, especially the two home playoff losses in the NFC championship game

-Flyers in 2000 blowing a 3-1 series lead against the Devils

-Flyers in 2004 losing to Tampa in Game 7

-Flyers getting blown out by Buffalo in a game 7

-Cubs in 2003

-Cubs in 2004, I was at the Mets game where the collapse began

-Holy Cross against Kentucky and then Marquette

-PSU against Iowa and Michigan in '02 ([expletive] refs)

-PSU against Michigan in '05 (see above)

[adamb0719]

the only truly painful moments of my life in sports so far are ND-BC 02 and the Cubs collapse in 03

 

Indeed you are very lucky

 

-Eagles just about every year, especially the two home playoff losses in the NFC championship game

-Flyers in 2000 blowing a 3-1 series lead against the Devils

-Flyers in 2004 losing to Tampa in Game 7

-Flyers getting blown out by Buffalo in a game 7

-Cubs in 2003

-Cubs in 2004, I was at the Mets game where the collapse began

-Holy Cross against Kentucky and then Marquette

-PSU against Iowa and Michigan in '02 ([expletive] refs)

-PSU against Michigan in '05 (see above)

 

I thought about a list as well, but I don't want to take up too much space. Cursed Bears/Cubs/Irish. What year was that fliers game that went into a ungodly amount of OT's. I remember I feel asleep watching it and was awoken at like 3 in the morning to the yells of GOOOOAAAAALLLLL!!! Scared the hell outta me.

 

Also PSU/Iowa is one game that I do remember as being one of the worst officiated I have ever seen.

[Andy]

the only truly painful moments of my life in sports so far are ND-BC 02 and the Cubs collapse in 03

 

-Cubs in 2004, I was at the Mets game where the collapse began

 

You are a lucky man. Did you not allows follow ND?

 

Good point Truffle, I forgot about the Cubs' 04 collapse. I can't believe I blocked that out...that one was probably more damaging than the 03 collapse because I have no doubt that that team would have at the very least gone to the World Series had they made the playoffs, whereas the 03 team was more of a surprise and I was happy they made it as far as they did.

 

And Adam, I have always followed ND (I had no choice really, all my mom's family and all my dad's family are ND fans with maybe one or two exceptions) but I am only 18. I wasn't old enough at the time of the ND-BC 93 game to understand the significance of it (although I firmly remember my mom visibly crying as BC nailed the game-winning field goal). And since then, ND has been too painfully mediocre for there to be any scarring losses...although the 1/1/01 Fiesta Bowl was no fun.

 

Being a Bulls fan there haven't been any painful losses in my memory, just painful teams, and the Carolina Panthers are the same way. (Losing fifteen games in a row when you have second-half leads or ties in twelve of them come to mind.) The Super Bowl loss to NE was not scarring because I was thrilled that no one could ever doubt that that Panthers team was for real anymore after that game.

 

That was a longer response than I expected to post, but there you go.

[hawkeyecub]

There has never been a fan base that complains about officiating more than Penn State fans. I guess they're just following Joe Pa's lead from the last 5 years.

Take a look at their rivals.com board (after practically every loss) and you'll know what I mean.

 

ND isn't a top 5 team right now, they just aren't. They're 4-2 with a loss at home to another two-loss team, and have three wins over losing teams. That's not saying they aren't a very good team who could run the table, but they're simply not top 5 right now and in my opinion not top 10.

[adamb0719]

the only truly painful moments of my life in sports so far are ND-BC 02 and the Cubs collapse in 03

 

-Cubs in 2004, I was at the Mets game where the collapse began

 

You are a lucky man. Did you not allows follow ND?

 

Good point Truffle, I forgot about the Cubs' 04 collapse. I can't believe I blocked that out...that one was probably more damaging than the 03 collapse because I have no doubt that that team would have at the very least gone to the World Series had they made the playoffs, whereas the 03 team was more of a surprise and I was happy they made it as far as they did.

 

And Adam, I have always followed ND (I had no choice really, all my mom's family and all my dad's family are ND fans with maybe one or two exceptions) but I am only 18. I wasn't old enough at the time of the ND-BC 93 game to understand the significance of it (although I firmly remember my mom visibly crying as BC nailed the game-winning field goal). And since then, ND has been too painfully mediocre for there to be any scarring losses...although the 1/1/01 Fiesta Bowl was no fun.

 

Being a Bulls fan there haven't been any painful losses in my memory, just painful teams, and the Carolina Panthers are the same way. (Losing fifteen games in a row when you have second-half leads or ties in twelve of them come to mind.) The Super Bowl loss to NE was not scarring because I was thrilled that no one could ever doubt that that Panthers team was for real anymore after that game.

 

That was a longer response than I expected to post, but there you go.

 

Got it, age didn't come to mind. I believe my first taste of heartbreak with ND was the 89 Miami game. Then the 90 season, with losses to Stanford and PSU, both when ND was #1. Then the 91 National Championship with the phantom clip (f-the refs), then the 92...well the list goes on and on.

[TruffleShuffle]

There has never been a fan base that complains about officiating more than Penn State fans. I guess they're just following Joe Pa's lead from the last 5 years.

Take a look at their rivals.com board (after practically every loss) and you'll know what I mean.

 

And yet I have pointed to specific examples of bad calls that went far to change the outcome of a game... aside from this year's Michigan game, we have:

 

-2002 against Iowa, where the Iowa receiver was out of bounds.... if the correct call had been made, Iowa would have had 3rd and 15 instead of 3rd and 1. I'd say there is a huge difference there. After that play, Iowa didn't have far to go to score a TD in overtime. Then, a sideline catch by a Penn State receiver was incorrectly ruled out of bounds.

 

-2002 against Michigan... Tony Johnson gets two feet in bounds but is ruled out; catch would have put Penn State in field goal range with under a minute left in regulation

 

-2003 against Ohio $tate - third down pass to TE Hartsock is clearly dropped and then fallen on, but it's ruled complete, so the drive continues, rather than punting the ball back to PSU. O$U's goes on to score the game-winning TD.

 

 

You can pooh-pooh these all you want, but they aren't just nickel and dime calls, or beefs about phantom holding. I generally won't complain about referee work unless it plays a real role in deciding the outcome of a game, and those examples above all fit that bill.

[NewUserName]

first I am not a Michigan fan

 

second any ND fan that complains about refereeing is got to completely have their head up their butts, ND has gotten more favorable ref calls than all other teams combined.

 

Third I wasnt complaining about the fumbles in the ND/Mich game I was talking about how Henne scored on the first sneak and how Avant scored on the pass play before that was downed on the 1/2 yard line.

 

fourth ND played a big game at home against a rival. They had some things go their way and played above their heads. Great. Any number of top twenty teams could have done that. Heck Michigan could probably have played SC close at home.

 

fifth Mich state quit running their offense in the 4th quarter of the ND game. Mistake on their coaches part yes. they do make alot of coaching mistakes there. In OT when they took the reigns off their offense they scored at will again just like they did most of the first 3 quarters.

 

sixth if ND had enough guts to join the big ten they would be lucky to go 8-3. This is why they stay out. They play a so called tough schedule that only has 1 legitimate BCS school on it. They are going to back into a bcs game and probably play Lousville and end up way over hyped. The truth is Mich St should be ranked higher then them and by the end of the year have played a tougher schedule that isnt over hyped.

[Andy]

first I am not a Michigan fan

 

second any ND fan that complains about refereeing is got to completely have their head up their butts, ND has gotten more favorable ref calls than all other teams combined.

 

Third I wasnt complaining about the fumbles in the ND/Mich game I was talking about how Henne scored on the first sneak and how Avant scored on the pass play before that was downed on the 1/2 yard line.

 

fourth ND played a big game at home against a rival. They had some things go their way and played above their heads. Great. Any number of top twenty teams could have done that. Heck Michigan could probably have played SC close at home.

 

fifth Mich state quit running their offense in the 4th quarter of the ND game. Mistake on their coaches part yes. they do make alot of coaching mistakes there. In OT when they took the reigns off their offense they scored at will again just like they did most of the first 3 quarters.

 

sixth if ND had enough guts to join the big ten they would be lucky to go 8-3. This is why they stay out. They play a so called tough schedule that only has 1 legitimate BCS school on it. They are going to back into a bcs game and probably play Lousville and end up way over hyped. The truth is Mich St should be ranked higher then them and by the end of the year have played a tougher schedule that isnt over hyped.

You're hilarious. ND doesn't join a conference because their financial situation is such that they don't need to and also because they have far too many rivals to expect to play them all in addition to a conference schedule. You are making fun of them for SOS? ND consistently has a top-10 toughest slate, which is more than I can say for anyone in the crappy Big Eleven.

 

If ND has gotten favors from the refs I haven't seen it. Everyone agrees that they got jobbed by the refs in the USC game, and I don't see any past evidence of ND getting favorable calls except for one game against Navy in 1999 when they got a terrible spot that, if spotted correctly would have ended their win streak over Navy. That's the only example I have known of, of bad officiating in favor of ND.

 

Michigan could never play USC close especially this year. They couldn't even hold Minnesota to OT at home when it was tied and the Gophers had it inside their own 30, so I doubt they could ever stop USC.

 

Your arguments are baseless, wrong, and absurd.

[CuseCubFan69]

first I am not a Michigan fan

 

second any ND fan that complains about refereeing is got to completely have their head up their butts, ND has gotten more favorable ref calls than all other teams combined.

 

Third I wasnt complaining about the fumbles in the ND/Mich game I was talking about how Henne scored on the first sneak and how Avant scored on the pass play before that was downed on the 1/2 yard line.

 

fourth ND played a big game at home against a rival. They had some things go their way and played above their heads. Great. Any number of top twenty teams could have done that. Heck Michigan could probably have played SC close at home.

 

fifth Mich state quit running their offense in the 4th quarter of the ND game. Mistake on their coaches part yes. they do make alot of coaching mistakes there. In OT when they took the reigns off their offense they scored at will again just like they did most of the first 3 quarters.

 

sixth if ND had enough guts to join the big ten they would be lucky to go 8-3. This is why they stay out. They play a so called tough schedule that only has 1 legitimate BCS school on it. They are going to back into a bcs game and probably play Lousville and end up way over hyped. The truth is Mich St should be ranked higher then them and by the end of the year have played a tougher schedule that isnt over hyped.

You're hilarious. ND doesn't join a conference because their financial situation is such that they don't need to and also because they have far too many rivals to expect to play them all in addition to a conference schedule. You are making fun of them for SOS? ND consistently has a top-10 toughest slate, which is more than I can say for anyone in the crappy Big Eleven.

 

If ND has gotten favors from the refs I haven't seen it. Everyone agrees that they got jobbed by the refs in the USC game, and I don't see any past evidence of ND getting favorable calls except for one game against Navy in 1999 when they got a terrible spot that, if spotted correctly would have ended their win streak over Navy. That's the only example I have known of, of bad officiating in favor of ND.

 

Michigan could never play USC close especially this year. They couldn't even hold Minnesota to OT at home when it was tied and the Gophers had it inside their own 30, so I doubt they could ever stop USC.

 

Your arguments are baseless, wrong, and absurd.

 

You mean a football conference....right?

[SouthSideRyan]

first I am not a Michigan fan

 

second any ND fan that complains about refereeing is got to completely have their head up their butts, ND has gotten more favorable ref calls than all other teams combined.

 

Third I wasnt complaining about the fumbles in the ND/Mich game I was talking about how Henne scored on the first sneak and how Avant scored on the pass play before that was downed on the 1/2 yard line.

 

fourth ND played a big game at home against a rival. They had some things go their way and played above their heads. Great. Any number of top twenty teams could have done that. Heck Michigan could probably have played SC close at home.

 

fifth Mich state quit running their offense in the 4th quarter of the ND game. Mistake on their coaches part yes. they do make alot of coaching mistakes there. In OT when they took the reigns off their offense they scored at will again just like they did most of the first 3 quarters.

 

sixth if ND had enough guts to join the big ten they would be lucky to go 8-3. This is why they stay out. They play a so called tough schedule that only has 1 legitimate BCS school on it. They are going to back into a bcs game and probably play Lousville and end up way over hyped. The truth is Mich St should be ranked higher then them and by the end of the year have played a tougher schedule that isnt over hyped.

You're hilarious. ND doesn't join a conference because their financial situation is such that they don't need to and also because they have far too many rivals to expect to play them all in addition to a conference schedule. You are making fun of them for SOS? ND consistently has a top-10 toughest slate, which is more than I can say for anyone in the crappy Big Eleven.

 

If ND has gotten favors from the refs I haven't seen it. Everyone agrees that they got jobbed by the refs in the USC game, and I don't see any past evidence of ND getting favorable calls except for one game against Navy in 1999 when they got a terrible spot that, if spotted correctly would have ended their win streak over Navy. That's the only example I have known of, of bad officiating in favor of ND.

 

Michigan could never play USC close especially this year. They couldn't even hold Minnesota to OT at home when it was tied and the Gophers had it inside their own 30, so I doubt they could ever stop USC.

 

Your arguments are baseless, wrong, and absurd.

 

You mean a football conference....right?

 

Obviously Notre Dame football is a completely different animal than the other Notre Dame sports.

[Andy]

first I am not a Michigan fan

 

second any ND fan that complains about refereeing is got to completely have their head up their butts, ND has gotten more favorable ref calls than all other teams combined.

 

Third I wasnt complaining about the fumbles in the ND/Mich game I was talking about how Henne scored on the first sneak and how Avant scored on the pass play before that was downed on the 1/2 yard line.

 

fourth ND played a big game at home against a rival. They had some things go their way and played above their heads. Great. Any number of top twenty teams could have done that. Heck Michigan could probably have played SC close at home.

 

fifth Mich state quit running their offense in the 4th quarter of the ND game. Mistake on their coaches part yes. they do make alot of coaching mistakes there. In OT when they took the reigns off their offense they scored at will again just like they did most of the first 3 quarters.

 

sixth if ND had enough guts to join the big ten they would be lucky to go 8-3. This is why they stay out. They play a so called tough schedule that only has 1 legitimate BCS school on it. They are going to back into a bcs game and probably play Lousville and end up way over hyped. The truth is Mich St should be ranked higher then them and by the end of the year have played a tougher schedule that isnt over hyped.

You're hilarious. ND doesn't join a conference because their financial situation is such that they don't need to and also because they have far too many rivals to expect to play them all in addition to a conference schedule. You are making fun of them for SOS? ND consistently has a top-10 toughest slate, which is more than I can say for anyone in the crappy Big Eleven.

 

If ND has gotten favors from the refs I haven't seen it. Everyone agrees that they got jobbed by the refs in the USC game, and I don't see any past evidence of ND getting favorable calls except for one game against Navy in 1999 when they got a terrible spot that, if spotted correctly would have ended their win streak over Navy. That's the only example I have known of, of bad officiating in favor of ND.

 

Michigan could never play USC close especially this year. They couldn't even hold Minnesota to OT at home when it was tied and the Gophers had it inside their own 30, so I doubt they could ever stop USC.

 

Your arguments are baseless, wrong, and absurd.

 

You mean a football conference....right?

 

Obviously Notre Dame football is a completely different animal than the other Notre Dame sports.

Most other ND sports, including basketball and baseball, are in the Big East conference. That's a different story than football.

[illiniguy]

There has never been a fan base that complains about officiating more than Penn State fans. I guess they're just following Joe Pa's lead from the last 5 years.

Take a look at their rivals.com board (after practically every loss) and you'll know what I mean.

 

ND isn't a top 5 team right now, they just aren't. They're 4-2 with a loss at home to another two-loss team, and have three wins over losing teams. That's not saying they aren't a very good team who could run the table, but they're simply not top 5 right now and in my opinion not top 10.

All fan bases cry about officials. Trust me you would have been amazed at what the hawkeye fans were saying about the referees when Illinois played them at Iowa last year in college bball. The guy next to me said Ed Hightower was fixing games for them that's why they were undefeated in games he did he said we were like 5-0 in his games. I said hey idiot I believe Illinois is 27-0 so it ain't just Ed. We at Illinois still bitch about Sean May. It happens everywhere.

[Mark_R]

 

For crying out loud, THEY LOST THE GAME. Notre Dame is looking a frightening bit like last year's Cal team.

 

I'd rather lose a game to USC in that fashion than beat a creampuff team. It says more about the ND team to me than had they walloped New Mexico State by 50 points.

[illiniguy]

 

For crying out loud, THEY LOST THE GAME. Notre Dame is looking a frightening bit like last year's Cal team.

 

I'd rather lose a game to USC in that fashion than beat a creampuff team. It says more about the ND team to me than had they walloped New Mexico State by 50 points.

Heck yeah I think it is awesome that they play that tough of a schedule. Weiss is the real deal it would appear. I don't know if Willingham could have coached the Patriots over USC.

[CuseCubFan69]

You're hilarious. ND doesn't join a conference because their financial situation is such that they don't need to and also because they have far too many rivals to expect to play them all in addition to a conference schedule. You are making fun of them for SOS? ND consistently has a top-10 toughest slate, which is more than I can say for anyone in the crappy Big Eleven.

 

You mean a football conference....right?

 

Obviously Notre Dame football is a completely different animal than the other Notre Dame sports.

Most other ND sports, including basketball and baseball, are in the Big East conference. That's a different story than football.

 

In all other sports...not just some. I understand that football is another animal but they are a member of a conference and let's remember they get a Big East slot for a bowl game too.

[CuseCubFan69]

 

For crying out loud, THEY LOST THE GAME. Notre Dame is looking a frightening bit like last year's Cal team.

 

I'd rather lose a game to USC in that fashion than beat a creampuff team. It says more about the ND team to me than had they walloped New Mexico State by 50 points.

 

The Navy game isn't that far away.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

For crying out loud, THEY LOST THE GAME. Notre Dame is looking a frightening bit like last year's Cal team.

 

I'd rather lose a game to USC in that fashion than beat a creampuff team. It says more about the ND team to me than had they walloped New Mexico State by 50 points.

 

Sure it says more, but it's not black and white like that. One game, especially one that you lost, shouldn't be the gauge of what level the team is at for the rest of the season. It's that sort of reaction that has OSU ranked over Penn St. right now(first example that came to my head, not because you like OSU Mark). Sure Notre Dame played USC tough, but they still lost, and they haven't beaten anyone of substance that would give a 2 loss team a bump in the rankings over one loss teams and two loss teams with quality wins.

 

Take Tennessee for example, they've lost to Florida and Georgia, a top 5 and top 10-15 team. They've beaten LSU in Baton Rouge, a top 5 team. Why aren't they getting the same hype as ND?

[Mark_R]

Tennessee should be getting more hype. They are a strong team.

 

And to be fair, I think the ranking of OSU over PSU is a foresight for the rest of the season. Perhaps the rankings shouldn't be done in that matter, but how people rank them is subjective anyway. Losing Derrick Williams is a huge loss for that team and I wouldn't be shocked if they start to really struggle against teams they should be handling with ease.

[Andy]

 

For crying out loud, THEY LOST THE GAME. Notre Dame is looking a frightening bit like last year's Cal team.

 

I'd rather lose a game to USC in that fashion than beat a creampuff team. It says more about the ND team to me than had they walloped New Mexico State by 50 points.

 

The Navy game isn't that far away.

I really hope you aren't going to trash ND for playing Navy. The Middies, Stanford, U-Dub and BYU are the only teams on ND's schedule that everyone pretty much knew was not going to be very good. That's 4 out of 11 games. Most Big Eleven teams play more than that many bad teams IN conference play, let alone their miserable excuse for a non-conference schedule.

[adamb0719]

first I am not a Michigan fan

 

second any ND fan that complains about refereeing is got to completely have their head up their butts, ND has gotten more favorable ref calls than all other teams combined.

 

Third I wasnt complaining about the fumbles in the ND/Mich game I was talking about how Henne scored on the first sneak and how Avant scored on the pass play before that was downed on the 1/2 yard line.

 

fourth ND played a big game at home against a rival. They had some things go their way and played above their heads. Great. Any number of top twenty teams could have done that. Heck Michigan could probably have played SC close at home.

 

fifth Mich state quit running their offense in the 4th quarter of the ND game. Mistake on their coaches part yes. they do make alot of coaching mistakes there. In OT when they took the reigns off their offense they scored at will again just like they did most of the first 3 quarters.

 

sixth if ND had enough guts to join the big ten they would be lucky to go 8-3. This is why they stay out. They play a so called tough schedule that only has 1 legitimate BCS school on it. They are going to back into a bcs game and probably play Lousville and end up way over hyped. The truth is Mich St should be ranked higher then them and by the end of the year have played a tougher schedule that isnt over hyped.

 

You can't knock ND for not having a tough schedule. When these games were scheduled there is no telling how PU, UM, MSU, UCS, will be. They play these teams every year. They also play on a semi-regular basis FSU, Tennessee, PSU, BC, GT and many other well known schools that have a history of success. They don't pad their schedule with schools that no one knew existed until they played a big program. This year a few of those teams had bad years. That happens. ND does not change their schedule based on who is going to be good and bad. They stick with the teams they play regardless of how good or bad they are.

 

If you really think the reason they don't join the Big 10 is because they are afraid too, then you really don't know what you are talking about. If they were to join a schedule it would be the Big East, which they already have ties with (all sports including football) and it is a very real possibility in the next 10 years or so. It is all financial and tradition based. They already lost money with the BCS, and if NBC does not renew, a conference may become a real possibility.

 

Also ND gets jobbed on as many calls as any other school. The USC games are well known for this. Hence the ND fans getting suspicious when Carroll said no replay. There is a precedent for ND getting hosed by PAC 10 refs, espcially in USC games. Notre Dame has had MANY bad calls go against them. The first one that comes to mind is the 02 BC game. They lost 7-14, but did score a TD that was ruled out of bounds. If that were called correctly, tie game.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

For crying out loud, THEY LOST THE GAME. Notre Dame is looking a frightening bit like last year's Cal team.

 

I'd rather lose a game to USC in that fashion than beat a creampuff team. It says more about the ND team to me than had they walloped New Mexico State by 50 points.

 

The Navy game isn't that far away.

I really hope you aren't going to trash ND for playing Navy. The Middies, Stanford, U-Dub and BYU are the only teams on ND's schedule that everyone pretty much knew was not going to be very good. That's 4 out of 11 games. Most Big Eleven teams play more than that many bad teams IN conference play, let alone their miserable excuse for a non-conference schedule.

 

All those teams would be last or second to last in the B10 this year.

 

And yes, you can't blame ND for scheduling who they did, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable when it turns out their schedule is pretty soft.

[adamb0719]

 

And yes, you can't blame ND for scheduling who they did, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable when it turns out their schedule is pretty soft.

 

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't be. I was just pointing out the ND does not attempt to schedule weak opponents to pad a schedule like many top 10 teams do.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

And yes, you can't blame ND for scheduling who they did, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable when it turns out their schedule is pretty soft.

 

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't be. I was just pointing out the ND does not attempt to schedule weak opponents to pad a schedule like many top 10 teams do.

 

I wasn't trying to imply you were, just trying to respond to you and ndistops in one more concise post.

[BadKermit]

4th I really feel bad for Willingham because I think he would have them in about the same shape that the great Weiss has them in. The biggest improvement on the team has been the fact that they got experience the last couple of years.

Come on, man. Weis made up a four-touchdown difference to Southern Cal in one year. Ty "Molder of Men" Willingham is and always has been a terrible, terrible football coach. Period.

 

Also, can everyone recognize that King Charles's last name is spelled "Weis," please?