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Posted

 

Probably have to worry about Houston.

 

.

 

I doubt Houston will be adding any big time FA's.

 

Here's a cursory glance at their payroll for 2006.

 

Pettitte 17 million

Bagwell 17 million

Biggio 4.5 million

Berkman 10 million

 

Those four players account for 48 million in payroll. Assume they keep Clemens, he'll command around 18 million again.

 

That's 66 million for five players. Ensberg, Everett, Oswalt, and Lidge are arbitration eligible.

 

Ensberg will likely get 5 million.

Oswalt is in his sixth year, so he'll get 10 at least. Lidge will likely get 6.

 

That's 87 million for eight players. Some of that money in Bagwell and Pettitte's deals are deferred, but we're still at 75 million for eight players. Also some of Kent's and Clemens' money has been deferred until this year, so that's added back in, putting us roughly at 80 million.Unless they significantly up payroll from the 85-88 million that it's been set at, Houston will not be too active in the FA market. My guess is that they'll stick with Everett at SS.

 

Will Bagwell play again? If not, that frees up some money. With Biggio playing one more year, you can expect that money to be freed up the following year.

 

I don't think Bagwell's ready to hang 'em up yet. And he's owed an 18 million option with a ten million buy-out for 2007. If he toughs out this season, he's guaranteed 27 million knowing the Astros would buy him out after this year. He'll be back.

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Posted
Doesn't SF have Vizquel signed for another year or two?

 

The White Sox won't make a big offer.

 

I think LA will look to upgrade @ 1b, 3b or the OF, and they need to add a starter, so they'll probably stay w/ Izturis @ SS. They really like his D.

 

Probably have to worry about Houston.

 

Altogether, I'd be skeptical of getting Furcal, but the market's pretty thin w/ him, since most the big market clubs are set @ SS. What the Cubs can't do is let Nomar walk and deal off Walker, as well, w/out having a replacement already in place to go along w/ Cedeno.

 

Well, as I stated before, that was off the top of my head. I wouldn't be sure that the White Sox wouldn't make a big offer. They have a lot of decent stuff in place right now and question marks with Thomas and Konerko.

 

LA can move the horrible fielding Kent to 1st if he's under contract for another year. Izturis can move to 2nd.

 

Seattle might be a team that be interested in Furcal.

 

Anyway, the intent of my post wasn't to specify who might be interested in Furcal, but to express that there is no guarantee that he'll come to Chicago. He could just stay in Atlanta.

 

Wouldn't it be a huge gamble to release the inhouse guy in hopes of signing someone else?

 

As much as I'd like to see Giles, Furcal and/or Nomar, Millwood and Lofton all playing for the Cubs next year, I don't see the Cubs getting all those guys, and there is no guarantee they will get any of them.

 

What's worse is that they don't seem the slightest bit interested in retaining guys that are easier to come by, Nomar and Walker.

 

Last year, they set their sights on Beltran and didn't get him. They thought at worst, they could trade Sosa for Cliff Floyd. The Mets weren't biting and took Beltran instead.

 

We are competing with 29 other teams for these players services. They won't all sit around waiting to see what the Cubs will do before they make up their minds what they want to do. Hendry has a little history of sitting back and watching everything unfold. I don't think that philosophy will work this offseason. He also won't be able to back down from overbidding for the services of a JD Drew or a Carlos Beltran. I don't think there will be any teams letting the Cubs bid against themselves for Brian Giles or Rafael Furcal either. The market is thin, and you can expect that whoever gets these guys will have to pay a premium.

 

That's why, to me, it makes much more sense to at least lock up Nomar and Walker early, THEN worry about how you get Giles, Furcal and others to fill out the rest of the roster. Letting those guys walk just adds more holes that need to be filled and rather than penciling in the best candidates at each postion, assume Preston Wilson or Jacque Jones or Neifi Perez at some of those spots, which puts the team right back to where they were.

 

Nomar is a gamble because of health. However, Cedeno as protection allows you to make that gamble. If you can get Furcal, go ahead and get him too. Move Nomar to 2nd or the outfield and he protects Aramis at 3rd. You can then consider trading Walker.

 

That is a gamble. But, letting Nomar simply walk away and hoping you can sign Furcal is the biggest gamble of them all.

 

I ask the question again. Will Nomar sit on hold while you work on a plan to sign Furcal to replace him? I don't think he will.

Posted

BBB, Seattle worries me the most. They could make some outrageous offer. Am guessing Atl will make a decent offer, but won't offer anything too extravagant. What vance posted makes it appear that Houston won't be in the running for any big name FA's. I'm just glad that both NY's, Boston, Baltimore, Anaheim and St. Louis are set @ SS, and that LA has a tight owner.

 

EDIT: Oh and they need to lock up Walker. Can't deal him off until they have a 2b or SS replacement. Nomar can take his injury prone body elsewhere.

Posted
BBB, Seattle worries me the most. They could make some outrageous offer. Am guessing Atl will make a decent offer, but won't offer anything too extravagant. What vance posted makes it appear that Houston won't be in the running for any big name FA's. I'm just glad that both NY's, Boston, Baltimore, Anaheim and St. Louis are set @ SS, and that LA has a tight owner.

 

EDIT: Oh and they need to lock up Walker. Can't deal him off until they have a 2b or SS replacement. Nomar can take his injury prone body elsewhere.

 

Seattle worries me the least. These are three top SS prospects in the Mariners system in order of "projectability" :Yuniesky Betancourt, SS, B

Matt Tuiasosopo, SS, Asdrubal Cabrera, SS. Don't forget they also have Nomar's brother, Michael, already in the system. If the Mariners are going after a SS, my quess is they would sign Nomar, because of his "offering" price will be lower then Furcal. Failing that, I don't see Seattle going after Furcal all that hard.

 

To be honest, for Furcal's services, I think it will between the Cubs and the Braves. And while the Braves are a "contender", they also have Betemit, Johnson (although he is playing the OF, right now) Pena, Jr all

waiting for an opportunity to play SS. So Furcal may not see the $$$ from the Braves, (remember the Hampton contract will be killer on them begining next yr) not to mention he will always be pushed at SS. With the Cubs, there is only one viable option in the system and that is Cedeno--whom the Cubs have talked about moving to 2B, anyways (perhaps and early subtle invitation made by the Cubs, that they are serious), thus Furcal would get the money, and have nobody near ready to play SS for atleast 4 yrs.

 

All-in-all I like the Cubs chances at landing Furcal, but......

Posted
BBB, Seattle worries me the most. They could make some outrageous offer. Am guessing Atl will make a decent offer, but won't offer anything too extravagant. What vance posted makes it appear that Houston won't be in the running for any big name FA's. I'm just glad that both NY's, Boston, Baltimore, Anaheim and St. Louis are set @ SS, and that LA has a tight owner.

 

EDIT: Oh and they need to lock up Walker. Can't deal him off until they have a 2b or SS replacement. Nomar can take his injury prone body elsewhere.

 

Seattle worries me the least. These are three top SS prospects in the Mariners system in order of "projectability" :Yuniesky Betancourt, SS, B

Matt Tuiasosopo, SS, Asdrubal Cabrera, SS. Don't forget they also have Nomar's brother, Michael, already in the system. If the Mariners are going after a SS, my quess is they would sign Nomar, because of his "offering" price will be lower then Furcal. Failing that, I don't see Seattle going after Furcal all that hard.

 

To be honest, for Furcal's services, I think it will between the Cubs and the Braves. And while the Braves are a "contender", they also have Betemit, Johnson (although he is playing the OF, right now) Pena, Jr all

waiting for an opportunity to play SS. So Furcal may not see the $$$ from the Braves, (remember the Hampton contract will be killer on them begining next yr) not to mention he will always be pushed at SS. With the Cubs, there is only one viable option in the system and that is Cedeno--whom the Cubs have talked about moving to 2B, anyways (perhaps and early subtle invitation made by the Cubs, that they are serious), thus Furcal would get the money, and have nobody near ready to play SS for atleast 4 yrs.

 

All-in-all I like the Cubs chances at landing Furcal, but......

 

Thanks for the info. Maybe the Cubs won't have to shell out $8 million per year like some have suggested. If not, he become A LOT enticing for the Tribsters.

Posted

I definitely think Furcal will cost upwards of 8 million. The Braves likely would try to retain him in the 6-6.5/7 million range. Even teams without a glaring need at SS might give him a look if he is affordable. I could see the Dodgers looking at him if the price is right as well.

 

I think if you're willing to offer 4-5 years at 8.5, you'll get him. I'm not sure if the Cubs go that high, but it seems, rightly or wrongly, that he is the main target of the Cubs this offseason. I'd prefer that target to be Giles with Furcal as a second or third goal, but my guess is Hendry makes him his prime target.

 

For those that think Furcal is what we need, that should be encouraging. It has appeared to me that Hendry has usually gotten his prime targets. In 2002 that was Remlinger, in 2003 that was Hawkins, and last year it seemed he targeted to re-sign Nomar.

 

While none of those were the big fish at the time, I never felt the Cubs were targeting the big fish. (Though a lot of rumors persisted in two of those years over Pudge.) If Furcal is Hendry's prime target, I suspect he'll be wearing Cubbie blue next season.

Posted
One thing to keep in mind is that Renteria got a 4/40 contract last year. Furcal, this year, outperformed Renteria during his contract year, so it may cost at least 10 million to sign him.
Posted
One thing to keep in mind is that Renteria got a 4/40 contract last year. Furcal, this year, outperformed Renteria during his contract year, so it may cost at least 10 million to sign him.

 

Renteria got that deal with three big money teams (Red Sox, Cubs & Angels) shopping for a SS (though the Cubs had another target) and another mid-market team (Cardinals) bidding for him. I'm not sure that level of interest will be there for Furcal.

Posted
One thing to keep in mind is that Renteria got a 4/40 contract last year. Furcal, this year, outperformed Renteria during his contract year, so it may cost at least 10 million to sign him.

 

While that's true, there may not be as much competition for Furcal, as others have noted. Last year the Red Sox, Angels, Cardinals, and Cubs off the top of my head needed a SS, so there was plenty of competition between those big market team. With those teams set at SS, and no other big market teams needing a SS, the asking price for Furcal may not reach 8 figures.

 

EDIT: Or in other words, what Vance said.

Posted

If the Cubs are targeting Furcal then they have to try and deal Cedeno. I cannot understand why Hendry would target Furcal when the Cubs already have not one, but two SS under their control, so to speak.

 

I really cannot understand how the Cubs operate these days. They have a second baseman who they don't want who is moderately priced and very productive. They have a young SS who is cheap and has demonstrated he can field and hit at the ML level. They have a second SS who is high priced and often injured, but when healthy is still one of the best in the game. Yet they are targeting someone who will not be an upgrade to either one and likely be as expensive as the vet.

 

They appear to be targeting a SP, one of the most expensive positions to acquire via free agency. Yet they have three or four cheap options in the minors. I have a hard time believing the Cub should pay 5-9 mill for a fourth or fifth starter. Or worse yet, 10-15 million for an often injured #2 or 3.

 

In the meantime they need at least two sticks in the outified. If they target Giles they will severly overpay either in dollars or years to get him to leave the West Coast. If they target Kenny Lofton for CF we will all be sorely disapointed.

 

I don't presume to have all or any of the answers, but it sure looks like Hendry/MacPhail/Baker don't have any either. I am hopeful but not optomistic about the offseason.

Posted
If the Cubs are targeting Furcal then they have to try and deal Cedeno. I cannot understand why Hendry would target Furcal when the Cubs already have not one, but two SS under their control, so to speak.

 

I really cannot understand how the Cubs operate these days. They have a second baseman who they don't want who is moderately priced and very productive. They have a young SS who is cheap and has demonstrated he can field and hit at the ML level. They have a second SS who is high priced and often injured, but when healthy is still one of the best in the game. Yet they are targeting someone who will not be an upgrade to either one and likely be as expensive as the vet.

 

They appear to be targeting a SP, one of the most expensive positions to acquire via free agency. Yet they have three or four cheap options in the minors. I have a hard time believing the Cub should pay 5-9 mill for a fourth or fifth starter. Or worse yet, 10-15 million for an often injured #2 or 3.

 

In the meantime they need at least two sticks in the outified. If they target Giles they will severly overpay either in dollars or years to get him to leave the West Coast. If they target Kenny Lofton for CF we will all be sorely disapointed.

 

I don't presume to have all or any of the answers, but it sure looks like Hendry/MacPhail/Baker don't have any either. I am hopeful but not optomistic about the offseason.

 

The Cubs are targeting Furcal, because they believe they need to improve defense and find a lead-off hitter. They think Furcal will answer this problem. It's not the move I'd make, but I think it is clear from reading the tea leaves, that Furcal will be the number one target. It also seems clear that Cedeno will be at 2b. The Cubs probably believe that this makes the defense better and won't hurt the offense. I tend to disagree, but this isn't the first time I've disagreed with them.

 

In my perfect world, Giles would be target number one and I'd pick up Walker's option. Worst case scenario is I'd have a MI of Cedeno-Walker. I might still move after Furcal or try to re-sign Nomar as well, but my focus and energies would be making Giles an offer which he'd quickly sign so I could move on to my other priorities.

Posted

 

The Cubs are targeting Furcal, because they believe they need to improve defense and find a lead-off hitter.

 

Then if they land Lofton too, they will have two very mediocre number #1 hitters.

 

See, that's what I mean. I want to see some vision from the Cubs front office and all I ever see is a bad case of myopia.

Posted

 

The Cubs are targeting Furcal, because they believe they need to improve defense and find a lead-off hitter.

 

Then if they land Lofton too, they will have two very mediocre number #1 hitters.

 

See, that's what I mean. I want to see some vision from the Cubs front office and all I ever see is a bad case of myopia.

 

And I tend to agree with you. I'd land Lofton to "solve" lead-off which would allow me more flexibility at SS. Giles would still be my prime target since he fills a greater need and is a better player than Furcal.

Posted

 

The Cubs are targeting Furcal, because they believe they need to improve defense and find a lead-off hitter.

 

Then if they land Lofton too, they will have two very mediocre number #1 hitters.

 

See, that's what I mean. I want to see some vision from the Cubs front office and all I ever see is a bad case of myopia.

 

So besides Damon, who's a good leadoff man. Jmo but Furcal >> Walker, who some think is fabulous. Altogether, the pickins is pretty thin, and Anaheim, St. Louis, Houston and the White Sox have done alright w/out major obper's in the 1 & 2 spots.

Community Moderator
Posted

 

The Cubs are targeting Furcal, because they believe they need to improve defense and find a lead-off hitter.

 

Then if they land Lofton too, they will have two very mediocre number #1 hitters.

 

See, that's what I mean. I want to see some vision from the Cubs front office and all I ever see is a bad case of myopia.

 

So besides Damon, who's a good leadoff man. Jmo but Furcal >> Walker, who some think is fabulous. Altogether, the pickins is pretty thin, and Anaheim, St. Louis, Houston and the White Sox have done alright w/out major obper's in the 1 & 2 spots.

 

And if you have stellar pitching (which each of the teams you mentioned had this year), you can get away with a not so good OBP at the top of the order.

 

The Cubs were supposed to have a good pitching staff. Until Wood can go a full season healthy, Prior can go a full season without getting injured, Maddux learns to keep the ball in the ball park and the bullpen controls leads they inherit, we will need better OBP guys at the top of the order.

 

Imagine how good some of those teams would have been with great pitching and better OBP at the top of the order.

Posted

That is a gamble. But, letting Nomar simply walk away and hoping you can sign Furcal is the biggest gamble of them all.

 

Exactly. That's putting all your eggs in one basket. If you don't sign Furcal, then you could really be screwed.

 

Re-sign Nomar if he'll come back for low base/high incentive deal with Cedeno as backup. Nomar can play third, Cedeno can back up SS and 2nd. Sign Branyan and you have yet another 3B backup and someone who can spell DLee every so often.

Posted

 

The Cubs are targeting Furcal, because they believe they need to improve defense and find a lead-off hitter.

 

Then if they land Lofton too, they will have two very mediocre number #1 hitters.

 

See, that's what I mean. I want to see some vision from the Cubs front office and all I ever see is a bad case of myopia.

 

So besides Damon, who's a good leadoff man. Jmo but Furcal >> Walker, who some think is fabulous. Altogether, the pickins is pretty thin, and Anaheim, St. Louis, Houston and the White Sox have done alright w/out major obper's in the 1 & 2 spots.

 

And if you have stellar pitching (which each of the teams you mentioned had this year), you can get away with a not so good OBP at the top of the order.

 

The Cubs were supposed to have a good pitching staff. Until Wood can go a full season healthy, Prior can go a full season without getting injured, Maddux learns to keep the ball in the ball park and the bullpen controls leads they inherit, we will need better OBP guys at the top of the order.

 

Imagine how good some of those teams would have been with great pitching and better OBP at the top of the order.

 

But who's out there?? Furcal's .348 obp and great speed makes him above average. Of course, I probably put more value into speed than some.

Community Moderator
Posted

Angels has .340 and .333 OBP in the top two spots.

Houston had .316 and .323.

CHW had .341 and .335

STL had .369 and .332

 

Cubs had .299 and .317

 

I'd say only Houston of the group you mentioned had BAD OBP in the top two spots in the line up.

Community Moderator
Posted

 

The Cubs are targeting Furcal, because they believe they need to improve defense and find a lead-off hitter.

 

Then if they land Lofton too, they will have two very mediocre number #1 hitters.

 

See, that's what I mean. I want to see some vision from the Cubs front office and all I ever see is a bad case of myopia.

 

So besides Damon, who's a good leadoff man. Jmo but Furcal >> Walker, who some think is fabulous. Altogether, the pickins is pretty thin, and Anaheim, St. Louis, Houston and the White Sox have done alright w/out major obper's in the 1 & 2 spots.

 

And if you have stellar pitching (which each of the teams you mentioned had this year), you can get away with a not so good OBP at the top of the order.

 

The Cubs were supposed to have a good pitching staff. Until Wood can go a full season healthy, Prior can go a full season without getting injured, Maddux learns to keep the ball in the ball park and the bullpen controls leads they inherit, we will need better OBP guys at the top of the order.

 

Imagine how good some of those teams would have been with great pitching and better OBP at the top of the order.

 

But who's out there?? Furcal's .348 obp and great speed makes him above average. Of course, I probably put more value into speed than some.

 

I like Furcal, don't get me wrong. He would be a decent OBP at the top of the order, as well as speed. I'm not saying the Cubs shouldn't entertain bringing him here. My issue is if you let Nomar and Walker take a hike and Furcal elects to stay in Atlanta, you have nothing. Now you have a hole in CF, RF, SS, SP and 2nd with nothing but minor leaguers as trade chips and not much else on the free agent market if Furcal and Giles stay home.

Posted

And I tend to agree with you. I'd land Lofton to "solve" lead-off which would allow me more flexibility at SS. Giles would still be my prime target since he fills a greater need and is a better player than Furcal.

 

If they sign Lofton to lead off, doesn't it make sense to just re-sign Nomar? He certainly will come much cheaper than Furcal (at least in base salary). If you sign Nomar instead of Furcal, that may give us the extra flexibility to sign Giles.

 

Nomar- $5,000,000

Lofton- $2,000,000

Giles- $12,000,000 (up to $14,000,000 over three years)

 

If they insist on not picking up Walker's option (terrible idea), its imperative that they move Cedeno to 2nd. Better production than Neifi, higher upside, less money.

 

CF Lofton (2 million)

LF Murton (300k)

1B Lee (8.7 million)

RF Giles (12.5 million)

3B Ramirez (10.5 million)

SS Garciapara (5 millon)

C Barrett (4.3 million)

2B Cedeno (300k)

 

SP Prior (3.0 million)

SP Wood (12.0 million)

SP Zambrano (5.0 million?)

SP Maddux (9.0 million)

SP Burnett (10.0 million)

 

RP Dempster (5.0 million)

RP Howry (2.0 million?)

RP Novoa (1.0 million)

RP Ohman (500k)

RP Hill (300k)

RP Williams (2.0 million?)

 

BN Blanco (1.5 million)

BN Patterson (2.8 million?)

BN Hairston (2.0 million)

BN Fontenot (300k)

BN Cruz Jr. (1.5 million)

BN Hollandsworth (1.0 million)

 

TOTAL: 102,500,000

 

I know some of those figures might be a bit off, but I think its close enough that this team is realistic. What do you think?

Posted
Angels has .340 and .333 OBP in the top two spots.

Houston had .316 and .323.

CHW had .341 and .335

STL had .369 and .332

 

Cubs had .299 and .317

 

I'd say only Houston of the group you mentioned had BAD OBP in the top two spots in the line up.

 

If the Cubs get a 1-2 that averages out to .350, they should be fine, especially if they have great speed like Furcal & Lofton. The Cub pitching is due to bounce back, but they still need to sign Milwood.

Community Moderator
Posted
And if you let Nomar and Walker hit the road, where is the inspiration for Giles to want to leave a team that made the playoffs this year to go to a team that appears to be rebuilding more than adding onto the talent they already had.
Posted

I too wouldn't freak out if the Cubs sign Furcal. My point is that Giles should be the primary target. If the Cubs kept Walker and Nomar and signed Giles, I think we would have a better team than if we pencil in Cedeno at second, sign Furcal, but miss out on Giles. If we miss out on Giles, we'll be looking at having Preston Wilson/Juan Encarnacion types in right.

 

Tell me which line-up you'd prefer:

Lofton CF

Murton LF

Lee 1b

Giles RF

Ramirez 3B

Nomar SS

Walker 2b or Cedeno

Barrett C

 

or

 

Furcal SS

Murton LF

Lee 1b

Ramirez 3B

Barrett C

J. Jones/ J. Encarnacion RF

Lofton/ P. Wilson CF

Cedneo 2b

 

I think I'd prefer the first.

 

Now if the Cubs could get Giles and Furcal, well then that's great. I just don't see the Cubs being able to land the two top positional free agents on the market.

Community Moderator
Posted
Angels has .340 and .333 OBP in the top two spots.

Houston had .316 and .323.

CHW had .341 and .335

STL had .369 and .332

 

Cubs had .299 and .317

 

I'd say only Houston of the group you mentioned had BAD OBP in the top two spots in the line up.

 

If the Cubs get a 1-2 that averages out to .350, they should be fine, especially if they have great speed like Furcal & Lofton. The Cub pitching is due to bounce back, but they still need to sign Milwood.

 

But, getting Furcal, Lofton and Millwood hinges entirely upon their desire to come to Chicago and play.

 

Furcal could accept less to stay in Atlanta, where he's a shoe in to compete in the post season every year. Or, he could sign a bigger contract to play for a team that makes the postseason once every decade.

 

Millwood is already being offered a contract to stay in Cleveland. Cleveland has a lot of young talent.

 

Lofton is probably the easiest sign of this group. But, he'll be another year older and he was basically a platoon this year.

 

Nomar and Walker are inhouse and easier signings than any of the above listed guys. Walker can be signed and traded if Nomar is signed and you do lure Furcal. The moment Hendry gives his undivided attention to Furcal, Nomar will look elsewhere. When that happens, Hendry had better get Furcal, otherwise it could be a long offseason and an even longer 2006 baseball season.

Posted

 

The Cubs are targeting Furcal, because they believe they need to improve defense and find a lead-off hitter.

 

Then if they land Lofton too, they will have two very mediocre number #1 hitters.

 

See, that's what I mean. I want to see some vision from the Cubs front office and all I ever see is a bad case of myopia.

 

So besides Damon, who's a good leadoff man. Jmo but Furcal >> Walker, who some think is fabulous. Altogether, the pickins is pretty thin, and Anaheim, St. Louis, Houston and the White Sox have done alright w/out major obper's in the 1 & 2 spots.

 

And if you have stellar pitching (which each of the teams you mentioned had this year), you can get away with a not so good OBP at the top of the order.

 

The Cubs were supposed to have a good pitching staff. Until Wood can go a full season healthy, Prior can go a full season without getting injured, Maddux learns to keep the ball in the ball park and the bullpen controls leads they inherit, we will need better OBP guys at the top of the order.

 

Imagine how good some of those teams would have been with great pitching and better OBP at the top of the order.

 

But who's out there?? Furcal's .348 obp and great speed makes him above average. Of course, I probably put more value into speed than some.

 

I like Furcal, don't get me wrong. He would be a decent OBP at the top of the order, as well as speed. I'm not saying the Cubs shouldn't entertain bringing him here. My issue is if you let Nomar and Walker take a hike and Furcal elects to stay in Atlanta, you have nothing. Now you have a hole in CF, RF, SS, SP and 2nd with nothing but minor leaguers as trade chips and not much else on the free agent market if Furcal and Giles stay home.

 

I highly doubt Hendry will let both go w/out one major replacement in place. He seems like a pretty conservative guy, so I doubt he makes a big gamble.

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