Oh, so this is why Murton is successful........

[CubfaninCA]

San Francisco's been a big market team for quite some time and big market teams tend to buy their players, not develop them. How many players has Torre developed besides Jetah and Rivera?? All this stuff about Baker not developing players is blown out of proportion. It's not like he has been managing for Cincy or Oakland.

[UK1679666180]

Ah the vitriol. Can anyone ever give Baker any credit?? Considering he actually played the game he may know a thing or two. Yes, he's a behind the times, but the guy has more hits and homers than this entire board combined.

 

As for Choi and DuBois, yes it's Baker's fault they're riding the pine w/ LA and Cleveland. :roll:

 

I don't think anyone on this board except for a few Q&As have played pro ball, why should anyone on this board be critical of anyone in the game?

 

Let's hold hands and sing the praises b/c we have no idea of what should be done and they do.

 

I don't think Miles should offer up an opinion either, despite following the Cubs years upon years, his lack of experience makes any crticism of the team invalid.

 

What the hell, let's shut down this message board too, there are too many negative opinions from unqualified posters.

 

And how dare you say he is behind the times, what is your playing experience?

[goonys evil twin]

San Francisco's been a big market team for quite some time and big market teams tend to buy their players, not develop them. How many players has Torre developed besides Jetah and Rivera?? All this stuff about Baker not developing players is blown out of proportion. It's not like he has been managing for Cincy or Oakland.

 

SanFran/NYY, two totally different situations. The level of NYY's "buying their talent" is so far above and beyond what SF is capable of. However, besides Jeter, Joe played a major role in developing Jorge and Soriano. He's also been willing to just hand jobs to guys like Robinson Cano even though big market teams aren't supposed to do that in a pennant race. Joe also showed a willingness to use kids from the system on the bench on a regular basis, like Shane Spencer.

 

That's 4 kids he's handed the keys to the starting job to, and stuck with them, just in his 10 years in NY. I don't know much about his previous stints as a manager.

[CubfaninCA]

Ah the vitriol. Can anyone ever give Baker any credit?? Considering he actually played the game he may know a thing or two. Yes, he's a behind the times, but the guy has more hits and homers than this entire board combined.

 

As for Choi and DuBois, yes it's Baker's fault they're riding the pine w/ LA and Cleveland. :roll:

 

I don't think anyone on this board except for a few Q&As have played pro ball, why should anyone on this board be critical of anyone in the game?

 

Let's hold hands and sing the praises b/c we have no idea of what should be done and they do.

 

I don't think Miles should offer up an opinion either, despite following the Cubs years upon years, his lack of experience makes any crticism of the team invalid.

 

What the hell, let's shut down this message board too, there are too many negative opinions from unqualified posters.

 

And how dare you say he is behind the times, what is your playing experience?

 

There's nothing wrong w/ criticism. There's just not much objectivity. For some, Baker can do nothing right. He's an absolute moron. Sometimes it's like reading Rush Limbaugh commenting on baseball.

[frostwyrm]

Dusty is insulting our intelligence if he wants us to believe Murton wouldn't still be on the bench if Hollandsworth or Lawton had been even slightly better than awful.

 

It doesn't matter whether they were awful or not. The only reason they aren't currently playing in front of Murton is because Hollandsworth and Lawton are with the Braves and Yankees, respectively. If they remained on the roster, I guarantee that Murton would not have gotten the number of ABs he currently has.

 

I think it matters. Dusty would have wanted very much to keep them if they hadn't been totally awful, and Hendry wouldn't have had the cahones to trade them against Dusty's wishes.

[goonys evil twin]

There's nothing wrong w/ criticism. There's just not much objectivity. For some, Baker can do nothing right. He's an absolute moron. Sometimes it's like reading Rush Limbaugh commenting on baseball.

 

For me, he's done very little right. I was adamantly opposed to his hiring before it ever happened, and I've never thought differently since that day. He was absolutely the wrong man for this specific job, and he still is. The few things he has "done right" are completely overshadowed by the overall level of ineptness that has hung over this organization for over a year now.

[UK1679666180]

I think it is hard to find some objectivity in his quote, he's perfoming mental masturbation on himself with that recent quote.

 

Now, if you're talking Baker's overall tenure....

 

If I said Baker is a bad fit for this club and they should look for a new manager ASAP (which I have), in the overall scheme of things, I'm saying the exact same thing as someone calling him an idiot in the context of Baker managing the Cubs just not as glossy.

 

But, I don't think Baker is an idiot. He's just poor with words and flawed beliefs when it comes to baseball that differ from me.

[goonys evil twin]

Dusty is insulting our intelligence if he wants us to believe Murton wouldn't still be on the bench if Hollandsworth or Lawton had been even slightly better than awful.

 

It doesn't matter whether they were awful or not. The only reason they aren't currently playing in front of Murton is because Hollandsworth and Lawton are with the Braves and Yankees, respectively. If they remained on the roster, I guarantee that Murton would not have gotten the number of ABs he currently has.

 

I think it matters. Dusty would have wanted very much to keep them if they hadn't been totally awful, and Hendry wouldn't have had the cahones to trade them against Dusty's wishes.

 

I object to saying those guys were slightly better than awful.

 

They were both no better than awful, and possibly worse.

[CubfaninCA]

San Francisco's been a big market team for quite some time and big market teams tend to buy their players, not develop them. How many players has Torre developed besides Jetah and Rivera?? All this stuff about Baker not developing players is blown out of proportion. It's not like he has been managing for Cincy or Oakland.

 

SanFran/NYY, two totally different situations. The level of NYY's "buying their talent" is so far above and beyond what SF is capable of. However, besides Jeter, Joe played a major role in developing Jorge and Soriano. He's also been willing to just hand jobs to guys like Robinson Cano even though big market teams aren't supposed to do that in a pennant race. Joe also showed a willingness to use kids from the system on the bench on a regular basis, like Shane Spencer.

 

That's 4 kids he's handed the keys to the starting job to, and stuck with them, just in his 10 years in NY. I don't know much about his previous stints as a manager.

 

You think Dusty would have ruined Soriano and Posada?? What players did Baker miss on in SF?? Come to think of it what hitters have the Cubs developed in the past 10 years?? Perhaps the Cub system just really suks??

[goonys evil twin]

San Francisco's been a big market team for quite some time and big market teams tend to buy their players, not develop them. How many players has Torre developed besides Jetah and Rivera?? All this stuff about Baker not developing players is blown out of proportion. It's not like he has been managing for Cincy or Oakland.

 

SanFran/NYY, two totally different situations. The level of NYY's "buying their talent" is so far above and beyond what SF is capable of. However, besides Jeter, Joe played a major role in developing Jorge and Soriano. He's also been willing to just hand jobs to guys like Robinson Cano even though big market teams aren't supposed to do that in a pennant race. Joe also showed a willingness to use kids from the system on the bench on a regular basis, like Shane Spencer.

 

That's 4 kids he's handed the keys to the starting job to, and stuck with them, just in his 10 years in NY. I don't know much about his previous stints as a manager.

 

You think Dusty would have ruined Soriano and Posada?? What players did Baker miss on in SF?? Come to think of it what hitters have the Cubs developed in the past 10 years?? Perhaps the Cub system just really suks??

 

Way to change the subject. The point is Joe gave those guys the jobs, while you insinuated he'd developed no more players than Baker.

 

This excuse making for Baker is absolutely pathetic.

 

Some hyperbole has certainly been used in the blasting nof Dusty Baker, but it doesn't chang the fact that he's done an awful job with this team and should be replaced immediately. All this other nonsense is just a distraction from that one very important point.

[CubfaninCA]

San Francisco's been a big market team for quite some time and big market teams tend to buy their players, not develop them. How many players has Torre developed besides Jetah and Rivera?? All this stuff about Baker not developing players is blown out of proportion. It's not like he has been managing for Cincy or Oakland.

 

SanFran/NYY, two totally different situations. The level of NYY's "buying their talent" is so far above and beyond what SF is capable of. However, besides Jeter, Joe played a major role in developing Jorge and Soriano. He's also been willing to just hand jobs to guys like Robinson Cano even though big market teams aren't supposed to do that in a pennant race. Joe also showed a willingness to use kids from the system on the bench on a regular basis, like Shane Spencer.

 

That's 4 kids he's handed the keys to the starting job to, and stuck with them, just in his 10 years in NY. I don't know much about his previous stints as a manager.

 

You think Dusty would have ruined Soriano and Posada?? What players did Baker miss on in SF?? Come to think of it what hitters have the Cubs developed in the past 10 years?? Perhaps the Cub system just really suks??

 

Way to change the subject. The point is Joe gave those guys the jobs, while you insinuated he'd developed no more players than Baker.

 

This excuse making for Baker is absolutely pathetic.

 

Some hyperbole has certainly been used in the blasting nof Dusty Baker, but it doesn't chang the fact that he's done an awful job with this team and should be replaced immediately. All this other nonsense is just a distraction from that one very important point.

 

Just forgot about Soriano. Sorry. The subject still is Baker being unable to develop players. If people can start rattling off players he'd messed up, I'd like to see it. I never followed SF closely, so I'm not sure how their farm system looked several years ago. I do know the Cubs have given him little to work with, and also he's given Patterson every chance imaginable.

 

Yes, I'd like to see Baker gone too. He's a poor tactician.

[Mizzou]

1. After seeing the thread title, I knew that it'd be a quote from Dusty. It's amazing that he all but refused to play Murton everyday, then when he has no other choice but to play him, he takes credit for Murton succeeding.

 

2. Hilarious stuff, JC.

[CubsWin]

I think it is hard to find some objectivity in his quote, he's perfoming mental masturbation on himself with that recent quote.

Or maybe he is just being accurate. I hate to introduce empirical evidence in a thread like this one, but, in two and a half pages of posts, shouldn't someone have asked what Murton thinks?

 

ChicagoSports.com[/url]"]Baker has been criticized for not playing Murton against right-handers early, though Murton insists that's one of the big reasons for his success.

 

"It's easy to struggle your first 10 or 15 at-bats and then really start beating yourself up," he said. "I was able to have a little success early, it made me relax and realize I could play here."

 

But, I don't think Baker is an idiot. He's just poor with words and flawed beliefs when it comes to baseball that differ from me.

I couldn't agree with you more. I want him gone, too. But I can't bring myself to make the leap to using words like idiot when describing Dusty Baker. Not only do I think it is needlessly disrespectful, its simply inaccurate. Comments like "he's an idiot" say more about the person that wrote them than they do about the subject, in my opinion.

[sethuel1]

I think it is hard to find some objectivity in his quote, he's perfoming mental masturbation on himself with that recent quote.

Or maybe he is just being accurate. I hate to introduce empirical evidence in a thread like this one, but, in two and a half pages of posts, shouldn't someone have asked what Murton thinks?

 

ChicagoSports.com[/url]"]Baker has been criticized for not playing Murton against right-handers early, though Murton insists that's one of the big reasons for his success.

 

"It's easy to struggle your first 10 or 15 at-bats and then really start beating yourself up," he said. "I was able to have a little success early, it made me relax and realize I could play here."

 

But, I don't think Baker is an idiot. He's just poor with words and flawed beliefs when it comes to baseball that differ from me.

I couldn't agree with you more. I want him gone, too. But I can't bring myself to make the leap to using words like idiot when describing Dusty Baker. Not only do I think it is needlessly disrespectful, its simply inaccurate. Comments like "he's an idiot" say more about the person that wrote them than they do about the subject, in my opinion.

 

Wait, you're expecting Murton to say something else there? How can he make any answer besides one that flagellates his manager without fear of repercussion?

[CubfaninCA]

I think it is hard to find some objectivity in his quote, he's perfoming mental masturbation on himself with that recent quote.

Or maybe he is just being accurate. I hate to introduce empirical evidence in a thread like this one, but, in two and a half pages of posts, shouldn't someone have asked what Murton thinks?

 

ChicagoSports.com[/url]"]Baker has been criticized for not playing Murton against right-handers early, though Murton insists that's one of the big reasons for his success.

 

"It's easy to struggle your first 10 or 15 at-bats and then really start beating yourself up," he said. "I was able to have a little success early, it made me relax and realize I could play here."

 

But, I don't think Baker is an idiot. He's just poor with words and flawed beliefs when it comes to baseball that differ from me.

I couldn't agree with you more. I want him gone, too. But I can't bring myself to make the leap to using words like idiot when describing Dusty Baker. Not only do I think it is needlessly disrespectful, its simply inaccurate. Comments like "he's an idiot" say more about the person that wrote them than they do about the subject, in my opinion.

 

Wait, you're expecting Murton to say something else there? How can he make any answer besides one that flagellates his manager without fear of repercussion?

 

Maybe he's being genuine??

 

This may come as a shock to some, but maybe Murton likes Baker and respects him cause he was a pretty good hitter.

 

Scoff away.

 

Still waiting for some specifics on who Baker ruined in SF.....

[CubsWin]

I think it is hard to find some objectivity in his quote, he's perfoming mental masturbation on himself with that recent quote.

Or maybe he is just being accurate. I hate to introduce empirical evidence in a thread like this one, but, in two and a half pages of posts, shouldn't someone have asked what Murton thinks?

 

ChicagoSports.com[/url]"]Baker has been criticized for not playing Murton against right-handers early, though Murton insists that's one of the big reasons for his success.

 

"It's easy to struggle your first 10 or 15 at-bats and then really start beating yourself up," he said. "I was able to have a little success early, it made me relax and realize I could play here."

 

But, I don't think Baker is an idiot. He's just poor with words and flawed beliefs when it comes to baseball that differ from me.

I couldn't agree with you more. I want him gone, too. But I can't bring myself to make the leap to using words like idiot when describing Dusty Baker. Not only do I think it is needlessly disrespectful, its simply inaccurate. Comments like "he's an idiot" say more about the person that wrote them than they do about the subject, in my opinion.

 

Wait, you're expecting Murton to say something else there? How can he make any answer besides one that flagellates his manager without fear of repercussion?

And it took all of 5 minutes to get the standard response. Why is it that whenever a player says something good about Dusty Baker that some fans immediately write it off as that he was somehow forced to say it?

 

Does anyone have any evidence that suggests Baker runs his clubhouse with an iron fist, and that if anyone says anything less than the highest possible praise about Dusty that they'll sit the rest of the year?

 

Come on, sethuel1, Murton could have said 100 different things. He could have ended the session and said, "I've got to go". He could have said, "It may have made a difference. Who knows? I just came to play." He could've said, "Well, Dusty's the manager. He makes the decisions on who plays and who doesn't. That's not my job." Any of those would have been fine. But he didn't say them, did he?

[sethuel1]

I think it is hard to find some objectivity in his quote, he's perfoming mental masturbation on himself with that recent quote.

Or maybe he is just being accurate. I hate to introduce empirical evidence in a thread like this one, but, in two and a half pages of posts, shouldn't someone have asked what Murton thinks?

 

ChicagoSports.com[/url]"]Baker has been criticized for not playing Murton against right-handers early, though Murton insists that's one of the big reasons for his success.

 

"It's easy to struggle your first 10 or 15 at-bats and then really start beating yourself up," he said. "I was able to have a little success early, it made me relax and realize I could play here."

 

But, I don't think Baker is an idiot. He's just poor with words and flawed beliefs when it comes to baseball that differ from me.

I couldn't agree with you more. I want him gone, too. But I can't bring myself to make the leap to using words like idiot when describing Dusty Baker. Not only do I think it is needlessly disrespectful, its simply inaccurate. Comments like "he's an idiot" say more about the person that wrote them than they do about the subject, in my opinion.

 

Wait, you're expecting Murton to say something else there? How can he make any answer besides one that flagellates his manager without fear of repercussion?

And it took all of 5 minutes to get the standard response. Why is it that whenever a player says something good about Dusty Baker that some fans immediately write it off as that he was somehow forced to say it?

 

Does anyone have any evidence that suggests Baker runs his clubhouse with an iron fist, and that if anyone says anything less than the highest possible praise about Dusty that they'll sit the rest of the year?

 

Come on, sethuel1, Murton could have said 100 different things. He could have ended the session and said, "I've got to go". He could have said, "It may have made a difference. Who knows? I just came to play." He could've said, "Well, Dusty's the manager. He makes the decisions on who plays and who doesn't. That's not my job." Any of those would have been fine. But he didn't say them, did he?

 

Because it's really standard to end interviews while leaving the last question hanging.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I think it is hard to find some objectivity in his quote, he's perfoming mental masturbation on himself with that recent quote.

Or maybe he is just being accurate. I hate to introduce empirical evidence in a thread like this one, but, in two and a half pages of posts, shouldn't someone have asked what Murton thinks?

 

ChicagoSports.com[/url]"]Baker has been criticized for not playing Murton against right-handers early, though Murton insists that's one of the big reasons for his success.

 

"It's easy to struggle your first 10 or 15 at-bats and then really start beating yourself up," he said. "I was able to have a little success early, it made me relax and realize I could play here."

 

But, I don't think Baker is an idiot. He's just poor with words and flawed beliefs when it comes to baseball that differ from me.

I couldn't agree with you more. I want him gone, too. But I can't bring myself to make the leap to using words like idiot when describing Dusty Baker. Not only do I think it is needlessly disrespectful, its simply inaccurate. Comments like "he's an idiot" say more about the person that wrote them than they do about the subject, in my opinion.

 

Wait, you're expecting Murton to say something else there? How can he make any answer besides one that flagellates his manager without fear of repercussion?

 

Maybe he's being genuine??

 

This may come as a shock to some, but maybe Murton likes Baker and respects him cause he was a pretty good hitter.

 

Scoff away.

 

Still waiting for some specifics on who Baker ruined in SF.....

 

I really doubt Murton cares or respects Baker for his hitting abilities 25 years ago. He probably respects him for being his manager.

[CubfaninCA]

Well here's some specifics about the Giants from 1996 to 2002. I looked up their lineups and doesn't look like there was much room to develop players after 1996, as the lineup was pretty stacked from 97 to 02 (Baker went 121 games over .500 in those 6 years), and Baker actually started some youngsters (Pedro Feliz, Armando Rios and Calvin Murray). Of course, it's Dusty's fault that Murray and Rios never made it w/ any other team and that Feliz is average. PERHAPS SF just had a talent drought from 96 to 2002 w/ position players, like the Cubs have had for quite some time, or maybe Baker should have sat Snow, Kent, Aurilla, Mueller, Bonds or Burks, and play some alleged hot shot instead??? Funny thing is that Baker was right about Choi, Hill and DuBois, while the Baker Haters were wrong, but don't let the facts stop the constant bashing.

 

Here's a link to the Giants lineup in 2001 and you can access the lineups from 1997 to 2002.

 

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/teams/2001giants.stm

[imb]

Im glad someone else was willing to take up the "I love Dusty Baker" banner, we were really lacking since ZZ got b&

[Mizzou]

Well here's some specifics about the Giants from 1996 to 2002. I looked up their lineups and doesn't look like there was much room to develop players after 1996, as the lineup was pretty stacked from 97 to 02 (Baker went 121 games over .500 in those 6 years), and Baker actually started some youngsters (Pedro Feliz, Armando Rios and Calvin Murray). Of course, it's Dusty's fault that Murray and Rios never made it w/ any other team and that Feliz is average. PERHAPS SF just had a talent drought from 96 to 2002 w/ position players, like the Cubs have had for quite some time, or maybe Baker should have sat Snow, Kent, Aurilla, Mueller, Bonds or Burks, and play some alleged hot shot instead??? Funny thing is that Baker was right about Choi, Hill and DuBois, while the Baker Haters were wrong, but don't let the facts stop the constant bashing.

 

Here's a link to the Giants lineup in 2001 and you can access the lineups from 1997 to 2002.

 

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/teams/2001giants.stm

 

All of that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Dusty started Hollandsworth and Lawton over Murton until he had no other choice. Dusty does not like rookies. We know that. I don't understand why you're getting so upset at other people who get upset at Dusty for taking credit when a player does well, yet at the same time, never taking blame for anything that doesn't go his team's way. First it was "other teams don't have a book on him" then when Dusty realized that Murton wasn't a fluke it was "I'm putting him in a position to succeed" and now "he's succeeding because of me." If you want to believe that Dusty is the reason for Murton's success, then so be it, but I don't think it's necessary to act shocked when other people get upset that he takes all the credit for it.

[CubfaninCA]

Im glad someone else was willing to take up the "I love Dusty Baker" banner, we were really lacking since ZZ got b&

 

Quite clever considering I want Baker to be fired. :o

 

Just trying to provide some objectivity for a change.

[JC]

Here is the beauty of where this thread has gone: its largely a figment of someone's imagination.

 

Its no secret that I don't care for Dusty at all as a manager. I think he is terrible. However, that really isn't reflected in this thread. Rather, CubfaninCA took exception to my mention of Choi and Dubois and misinterpreted my post.

 

I took exception to Baker taking credit for Murton's success. I read Dusty's comments as defensive (fairly commonplace for Dusty) and self congratulatory rather than crediting Murton and his hard work. There is no acknowledgement of the tremendous season he had in the minors, nor is there any acknowledgement that Murton's discipline does not adhere to Dusty's well documented approach.

 

CubfaninCA jumped on me, making general accusations of vitriol and implying that I said Dusty ruined Choi and Dubois. In fact, I wrote no such thing. Instead, I used Choi and Dubois as examples to demonstrate that Dusty's "system" or "strategy" isn't foolproof for young hitters. He said the same things with respect to them as he just did for Murton. I just thought it was relevant to reference a couple of guys that Dusty's young hitter approach didn't fair well with.

 

I don't care for Dusty Baker, but that doesn't mean every criticism of mine is steeped in bias, as is implied. Actually, a close reading of thread evidences that I agreed Choi and Dubois' struggles could well have been from the fact that they just aren't good ML batters. Of course, that concession is lost in the zeal to attack Dusty antagonists and/or apologize for the man.

 

To think, it all could have been avoided with relative ease.

[BigbadB]

Well here's some specifics about the Giants from 1996 to 2002. I looked up their lineups and doesn't look like there was much room to develop players after 1996, as the lineup was pretty stacked from 97 to 02 (Baker went 121 games over .500 in those 6 years), and Baker actually started some youngsters (Pedro Feliz, Armando Rios and Calvin Murray). Of course, it's Dusty's fault that Murray and Rios never made it w/ any other team and that Feliz is average. PERHAPS SF just had a talent drought from 96 to 2002 w/ position players, like the Cubs have had for quite some time, or maybe Baker should have sat Snow, Kent, Aurilla, Mueller, Bonds or Burks, and play some alleged hot shot instead??? Funny thing is that Baker was right about Choi, Hill and DuBois, while the Baker Haters were wrong, but don't let the facts stop the constant bashing.

 

Here's a link to the Giants lineup in 2001 and you can access the lineups from 1997 to 2002.

 

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/teams/2001giants.stm

 

Rios debuted at the ripe young age of 27. Murray debuted at the ripe young age of 28. I don't think either of these guys had much of a shot considering they took as long as they did to reach the majors in the first place.

[imb]

Im glad someone else was willing to take up the "I love Dusty Baker" banner, we were really lacking since ZZ got b&

 

Quite clever considering I want Baker to be fired. :o

 

Just trying to provide some objectivity for a change.

 

so, self loathing then.