Juan Pierre vs. Jerry Hairston in Last 20 Starts

[HoopsCubs]

Jerry Hairston's last 20 starts range from June 15 through July 21.

 

In those starts: 85 plate appearances, 25 times on base, .294 OBP

 

Juan Pierre's last 20 starts range from June 28 through July 20.

 

In those starts: 96 plate appearances, 38 times on base, .396 OBP

 

That's a 100 point advantage in favor of Pierre. I'm warming up to the notion that trading for Pierre would actually be a good thing. Hairston has been awful. Add those numbers to the fact that Baker and Hendry don't think he's all that smart, it kind of looks like he should be moved.

 

Hairston and a pitching prospect for Pierre?

 

 

Hoops

[David]

:shock: Sure, it's not a huge sample size, but i didn't realize JHJr. was struggling that bad over the past month..

 

Interesting, Hoops...

[Guest]

Jerry Hairston's last 20 starts range from June 15 through July 21.

 

In those starts: 85 plate appearances, 25 times on base, .294 OBP

 

Juan Pierre's last 20 starts range from June 28 through July 20.

 

In those starts: 96 plate appearances, 38 times on base, .396 OBP

 

That's a 100 point advantage in favor of Pierre. I'm warming up to the notion that trading for Pierre would actually be a good thing. Hairston has been awful. Add those numbers to the fact that Baker and Hendry don't think he's all that smart, it kind of looks like he should be moved.

 

Hairston and a pitching prospect for Pierre?

 

 

Hoops

If it's for an extremely low-level prospect I'd consider it. I'd even be willing to bump it up to a mediocre pitcher if a condition of the deal was that every Cub fan gets the opportunity to kick Jeffrey Loria in the craw next time we play the Marlins.

 

(Have I ever mentioned before that I despise Loria? I think it may have come up once or twice before.)

Edited July 21, 2005 by Anonymous

[USSoccer]

The key with trading for Pierre is going to be the price. If it's a reasonable cost in prospects, ok. If we have to give up anything of real value, I'd pass.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm not a huge fan of Pierre. He's basically Willie Wilson. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to acquiring him if the cost wasn't too terribly high.

 

I'd give Wellemeyer for him.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Sure I'd do Hairston and a low prospect for Pierre, but I think the Marlins would laugh Hendry off the phone at that offer.

[imb]

I've said it before I guess. I really like Pierre, but I'm not sure I'd love him playing for the Cubs. I'd do Hairston and Koronka or something, a mid level pitching prospect, but there's no way the Fish would do that.

[RynoRules]

This won't go over well on this bd, but I have been in love w/ Pierre and Castillo since they smoked our collective bums in the 03' NLCS. Pierre seemed to get to every single fly ball, and his mere presence at the plate and especially on the basepaths seemed to unnerve our pitchers and make Dusty reach for an extra toothpick.

 

BTW, for proof that pesky, powerless leadoff hitters do make a difference, see Podsednik this year, Womak last year, Pierre the year before, etc.

 

EDIT: I'd do Wellemeyer and Kelton for Pierre and a prospect out of their system. I don't think that they would, though.

[Neuby]

This won't go over well on this bd, but I have been in love w/ Pierre and Castillo since they smoked our collective bums in the 03' NLCS. Pierre seemed to get to every single fly ball, and his mere presence at the plate and especially on the basepaths seemed to unnerve our pitchers and make Dusty reach for an extra toothpick.

 

BTW, for proof that pesky, powerless leadoff hitters do make a difference, see Podsednik this year, Womak last year, Pierre the year before, etc.

 

EDIT: I'd do Wellemeyer and Kelton for Pierre and a prospect out of their system. I don't think that they would, though.

 

nobody vaules Kelton . Welly,Koronoka, Hairston for Pierre?

[CUBZ99]

Jerry Hairston's last 20 starts range from June 15 through July 21.

 

In those starts: 85 plate appearances, 25 times on base, .294 OBP

 

Juan Pierre's last 20 starts range from June 28 through July 20.

 

In those starts: 96 plate appearances, 38 times on base, .396 OBP

 

That's a 100 point advantage in favor of Pierre. I'm warming up to the notion that trading for Pierre would actually be a good thing. Hairston has been awful. Add those numbers to the fact that Baker and Hendry don't think he's all that smart, it kind of looks like he should be moved.

 

Hairston and a pitching prospect for Pierre?

 

 

Hoops

 

Do you think Hairston's trade value is enough to get Pierre? Seems like you would have to get rid of a pretty good pitching prospect.

[OldHappyCubFan]

Thank god somebody finally decided to post some stats. Thank you Hoops.

 

Now everybody can quit saying "Pierre sucks," or "Pierre's overrated."

 

This guy is a bonafied leadoff hitter in every sense of the word.

[CUBZ99]

Thank god somebody finally decided to post some stats. Thank you Hoops.

 

Now everybody can quit saying "Pierre sucks," or "Pierre's overrated."

 

This guy is a bonafied leadoff hitter in every sense of the word.

 

Other people posted stats in the first Pierre discussion, some people just chose to ignore them because it hurt their argument that "Pierre sucked".

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Thank god somebody finally decided to post some stats. Thank you Hoops.

 

Now everybody can quit saying "Pierre sucks," or "Pierre's overrated."

 

This guy is a bonafied leadoff hitter in every sense of the word.

 

Other people posted stats in the first Pierre discussion, some people just chose to ignore them because it hurt their argument that "Pierre sucked".

 

Awesome.

[USSoccer]

Thank god somebody finally decided to post some stats. Thank you Hoops.

 

Now everybody can quit saying "Pierre sucks," or "Pierre's overrated."

 

This guy is a bonafied leadoff hitter in every sense of the word.

 

Other people posted stats in the first Pierre discussion, some people just chose to ignore them because it hurt their argument that "Pierre sucked".

 

I posted stats that supported my argument of "Pierre won't be worth the cost".

 

We disagreed. However, the argument was a bit more nuanced that "Pierre sucks". It was more like "Hairston has nearly as many walks in 1000 fewer AB's".

 

But thanks for lumping everything together.

[CUBZ99]

Thank god somebody finally decided to post some stats. Thank you Hoops.

 

Now everybody can quit saying "Pierre sucks," or "Pierre's overrated."

 

This guy is a bonafied leadoff hitter in every sense of the word.

 

Other people posted stats in the first Pierre discussion, some people just chose to ignore them because it hurt their argument that "Pierre sucked".

 

I posted stats that supported my argument of "Pierre won't be worth the cost".

 

We disagreed. However, the argument was a bit more nuanced that "Pierre sucks". It was more like "Hairston has nearly as many walks in 1000 fewer AB's".

 

But thanks for lumping everything together.

 

Thanks for pointing out the only category that Hairston may be better than Pierre in. You didn't point out that Hairston's K/BB is worse than Pierre's or that Hairston's career OBP is considerably lower, but then again this was argued ad naseum in the other thread.

[USSoccer]

Thank god somebody finally decided to post some stats. Thank you Hoops.

 

Now everybody can quit saying "Pierre sucks," or "Pierre's overrated."

 

This guy is a bonafied leadoff hitter in every sense of the word.

 

Other people posted stats in the first Pierre discussion, some people just chose to ignore them because it hurt their argument that "Pierre sucked".

 

I posted stats that supported my argument of "Pierre won't be worth the cost".

 

We disagreed. However, the argument was a bit more nuanced that "Pierre sucks". It was more like "Hairston has nearly as many walks in 1000 fewer AB's".

 

But thanks for lumping everything together.

 

Thanks for pointing out the only category that Hairston may be better than Pierre in. You didn't point out that Hairston's K/BB is worse than Pierre's or that Hairston's career OBP is considerably lower, but then again this was argued ad naseum in the other thread.

 

Career numbers:

G AB R H 2B 3BHR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS

773 3119 482 958 106 44 9 226 206 190 236 86 .307 .356 .378 .734

 

604 2052 274 537 113 13 30 177 183 259 100 47 .262 .335 .373 .709

 

They are very close in OBP, BB's, 2B SLG, OPS and RBI, despite Hairston having 1100 fewer AB's. Pierre doesn't exactly blow him out of the water.

 

I'm not, however, saying that Pierre isn't better than Hairston. He is better. It's a question of how much better, and then, how much more is he worth. In my opinion, he's not worth what we would likely have to give up for him. I don't think he's a major upgrade.

If we can get him for a Welley and Hairston, great. If it costs us anyone major, I'd rather pass.

[back2backjax]

remember the last time we gave the marlins a low-level prospect? give them some kid from AAA that is taking too long to develop (brownlie, koronka?)

[rawaction]

remember the last time we gave the marlins a low-level prospect? give them some kid from AAA that is taking too long to develop (brownlie, koronka?)

 

They have to want the player back. Not everyone is Dontrelle. Odds the Cubs giving up another guy who will be this good are very small.

[TheDude]

Do it. Make it happen.

 

IMO, folks that don't like Pierre on this board typically don't appreciate that style of baseball I have found. Usually the same folks that don't appreciate Ichiro or Eckstein either.

[wilk]

Other people posted stats in the first Pierre discussion, some people just chose to ignore them because it hurt their argument that "Pierre sucked".

 

Thanks for pointing out the only category that Hairston may be better than Pierre in. You didn't point out that Hairston's K/BB is worse than Pierre's or that Hairston's career OBP is considerably lower, but then again this was argued ad naseum in the other thread.

 

I see, so let's ignore the areas where Pierre *does* suck because it hurts the argument that "Pierre doesn't suck"...? So Pierre walks much less, but since he strikes out less is that the end-all? What about that Pierre's line Away is .249 / .284 / .332 / .616? Yes, Hairston's career OBP is .335, but Pierre's career OBP "away" is also .335. I don't feel like doing the math, but the number would even be somewhat lower if you take out Coors and Dolphin from the "Away" when he switched teams and vice versa. His career numbers at Wrigley are .279 / .343 / .361 / .704. So you do the rough math and see if you can project a rough season line. Not so great. I'd say "overrated." Or what about:

 

Pierre

RISP - .203 / .301 / .304 / .605

SP2O - .143 / .236 / .265 / .501

OB2O - .194 / .260 / .284 / .544

Cl&L - .196 / .255 / .255 / .510

 

Hairston

RISP - .292 / .382 / .417 / .799

SP2O - .269 / .321 / .308 / .629

OB2O - .216 / .256 / .270 / .526

Cl&L - .258 / .361 / .452 / .813

 

(Runners in scoring position, scoring position 2 out, men on 2 out, close and late)

 

Of course the line this season:

Pierre .272 / .319 / .357 / .676

Hairston .264 / .346 / .388 / .734

 

And then the ever popular "Pierre in Wrigley?" consideration. Unless you plan on him bunting every single at-bat, the grass is a bad thing. And then of course if he bunts every at-bat it stops working. There are plenty of numbers and arguments to say that Pierre is overrated and not all that good when you really consider it - just, some people "apparently" plan on ignoring them when it "hurts their argument that Pierre [doesn't suck]" and instead focus on the month or months that Pierre was pretty good rather than the ones when he sucked. See how it goes? The problem is not that people are so vehemently opposed to Pierre being on the team - it's a matter of his cost vs. value. He's not worth what "Juan Pierre" would seemingly command, but if we can grab Pierre for Hairston and Wellemeyer I'd go for it. I'd swap Pierre for Hairston at the cost of Wellemeyer for sure, because Hairston won't be here next year anyway, and I'd trust Pierre to supply a spark more so than Hairston. I wouldn't pay much more than that - certainly not Hill, Pie, Murton, Nolasco, Marmol, etc. - the difference between the two is much smaller than most of the Pro-Pierre crowd admits. But does anyone actually think we can get Pierre for Hairston and Wellemeyer? I don't. Hence why I'm opposed to Pierre in most cases.

[CUBZ99]

Do it. Make it happen.

 

IMO, folks that don't like Pierre on this board typically don't appreciate that style of baseball I have found. Usually the same folks that don't appreciate Ichiro or Eckstein either.

 

I think you have something.

[CUBZ99]

Other people posted stats in the first Pierre discussion, some people just chose to ignore them because it hurt their argument that "Pierre sucked".

 

Thanks for pointing out the only category that Hairston may be better than Pierre in. You didn't point out that Hairston's K/BB is worse than Pierre's or that Hairston's career OBP is considerably lower, but then again this was argued ad naseum in the other thread.

 

 

 

Pierre

RISP - .203 / .301 / .304 / .605

SP2O - .143 / .236 / .265 / .501

OB2O - .194 / .260 / .284 / .544

Cl&L - .196 / .255 / .255 / .510

 

Hairston

RISP - .292 / .382 / .417 / .799

SP2O - .269 / .321 / .308 / .629

OB2O - .216 / .256 / .270 / .526

Cl&L - .258 / .361 / .452 / .813

 

(Runners in scoring position, scoring position 2 out, men on 2 out, close and late)

 

quote]

 

Yes, the old Runners in Scoring Position. Very, Very important for a leadoff hitter. :^o

#-o

[treebird]

some people (like me) don't value those situational stats at all

[Transmogrified Tiger]

some people (like me) don't value those situational stats at all

 

I concur

[RynoRules]

I value pretty much two things in a leadoff hitter who plays CF, a la Pierre:

OBP and defense. To a lesser extent, I think Ks and speed are important as well. This sort of guy can usually change the look of a lineup. Its hard to describe - an intangible thing. But I think history bears out that if you have a "table setter" at the top, it strengthens your lineup. Guys like Posednik, Vince Coleman, Kenny Lofton, etc. illustrate this, IMO.