Do we want Pierre?

[LoneStarCubFan]

No, I mean that if Juan Pierre is here when Pie gets here, he'll block Felix because Dusty the Dumbass will go with the "proven veteran" like he is with Perez over Cedeno.

[Guest]

That is pretty interesting. I have wondered on a couple of occasions if anyone had come up with something like this. Is there somewhere to read up on this. I can't get around some of the numbers (shouldn't GIDP be a bigger -'ve, at leat CS + out ? , and a couple of others but maybe if I read something the logic would fall into place.

There are actually many different flavors of Linear Weights, each using slightly different methods or data. The numbers I posted came from Jim Furtado's XR (eXtrapolated Runs.) You can read up on his methodology and such here.

 

Re: GIDP vs. CS - The reason why a GIDP is less "bad" than a CS and a generic out is becuase a GIDP can (and sometimes does) produce an effect other than erasing a baserunner and putting two outs on the board. Provided there are no outs, a GIDP can still advance a player a base or even drive in a run. For that reason, it can still have some postitive value. (Though it still pales in comparison to the harm it causes.)

[ThePenguin11]

I'd rather see them get a LF'er at this stage, I consider Hairston to be the starting CF'er at this stage. Between Hairston and Pierre, I don't see much of an upgrade.

 

You have to ride it out with Hairston and Walker at this stage and see where it gets you at the top of the order.

 

I'd like to keep Hairston at the top and get a middle of the order hitter, they'd still another reliever (besides Williamson) and a SS depending if you consider Nomar an option.

 

 

Yeah, but how do you really feel, at this stage?

 

[sonicdethmonkey0]

i wouldn't trade patterson for pierre.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

i wouldn't trade patterson for pierre.

 

Litle known fact: Patterson had better RC numbers than Pierre last year, despite Pierre having a 50 point edge in OBP. SLG matters.

[1908]

I'd rather see them get a LF'er at this stage, I consider Hairston to be the starting CF'er at this stage. Between Hairston and Pierre, I don't see much of an upgrade.

 

You have to ride it out with Hairston and Walker at this stage and see where it gets you at the top of the order.

 

I'd like to keep Hairston at the top and get a middle of the order hitter, they'd still another reliever (besides Williamson) and a SS depending if you consider Nomar an option.

 

 

Yeah, but how do you really feel, at this stage?

 

Nothing makes a joke funnier than being really, really deliberate.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

i wouldn't trade patterson for pierre.

 

Nor would I.

[OldHappyCubFan]

I love it when people compare unproven Triple A players, to proven MLB players with rings, and a nice resume.

 

What has Pie or Patterson done to deserve any respect? I know they *might* be good players in the MLB, but I'm not gonna sit here and hope for a championship with these guys in the lineup. I want to win NOW, and Pierre will help us get that much closer.

 

Pie is 20 years old, he has a good 3 years left in the minors.

 

As previous posters have said, Pierre is not an average center fielder. He has good stats, for a leadoff hitter and he knows HOW to do it.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

I love it when people compare unproven Triple A players, to proven MLB players with rings, and a nice resume.

 

What has Pie or Patterson done to deserve any respect? I know they *might* be good players in the MLB, but I'm not gonna sit here and hope for a championship with these guys in the lineup. I want to win NOW, and Pierre will help us get that much closer.

 

Pie is 20 years old, he has a good 3 years left in the minors.

 

As previous posters have said, Pierre is not an average center fielder. He has good stats, for a leadoff hitter and he knows HOW to do it.

What are you talking about? First of all, who is this triple A player you are talking about? Secondly, Pie won't be in the minors for another 3 years. I don't want him to be rushed and I think that he will be up in two years at the latest. About Pierre, what does he provide that Jerry doesn't? I realize you think he is "proven" but the fact is that he is being outperformed by Jerry right now. IMO, it would be a very unwise move to trade for him because you are just using bait that could be traded for an impact bat.

[CubinNY]

One more time for those that missed it. I think I'll post it on each new page.

 

Pierre's CS more than negate his OBP % and he does not play a good CF. His one talent is bunting.

 

This is why more of the baseball world needs to become familiar with Linear Weights. For those of you scoring at home, here are the typical run values of some common offensive events:

 

Event	Value
-------------
BB        .34
1B        .50
2B        .72
3B       1.04
HR       1.44
SB        .18
CS       -.32
Out      -.09
SO       -.10
GIDP     -.37

In summary: SB aren't that significant as all they can do is advance one ruuner one base. CS, on the other hand, have an extreme negative impact on run scoring. Not only do they use up a precious out, they also negate whatever positive event lead to the runner reaching base in the first place. This is why the break even point for SB is pretty high, upwards of 70% or so. If a player isn't at least that successful, his activities on the basepaths are hurting his team, not helping it.

 

Oh, and I'll take a pass on Pierre. Slap-hitting poor defenders with low OBP aren't hard to find if we really want one. (Come to think of it, we already have a few on the team.)

[CUBZ99]

One more time for those that missed it. I think I'll post it on each new page.

 

Pierre's CS more than negate his OBP % and he does not play a good CF. His one talent is bunting.

 

This is why more of the baseball world needs to become familiar with Linear Weights. For those of you scoring at home, here are the typical run values of some common offensive events:

 

Event	Value
-------------
BB        .34
1B        .50
2B        .72
3B       1.04
HR       1.44
SB        .18
CS       -.32
Out      -.09
SO       -.10
GIDP     -.37

In summary: SB aren't that significant as all they can do is advance one ruuner one base. CS, on the other hand, have an extreme negative impact on run scoring. Not only do they use up a precious out, they also negate whatever positive event lead to the runner reaching base in the first place. This is why the break even point for SB is pretty high, upwards of 70% or so. If a player isn't at least that successful, his activities on the basepaths are hurting his team, not helping it.

 

Oh, and I'll take a pass on Pierre. Slap-hitting poor defenders with low OBP aren't hard to find if we really want one. (Come to think of it, we already have a few on the team.)

 

Poor defender? Do you know who Pierre is or are you thinking of another player? He covers a great deal of ground in CF, in case you haven't seen him play before. Just because he doesn't have a great arm doesn't make him a poor defender. :lol:

 

Also, to those that compare him to Hairston there is one big difference. Pierre has actual hit well over the course of an entire year (200+ hits 3 of last 4 years). Hairston is nothing more than a part time player.

 

Sometimes I think some people are a little over optimistic projecting how good "such and such" is going to be, just because they are young. Hairston could only hope that he could put up Pierre like numbers over the course of a year.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

I love it when people compare unproven Triple A players, to proven MLB players with rings, and a nice resume.

 

What has Pie or Patterson done to deserve any respect? I know they *might* be good players in the MLB, but I'm not gonna sit here and hope for a championship with these guys in the lineup. I want to win NOW, and Pierre will help us get that much closer.

 

Pie is 20 years old, he has a good 3 years left in the minors.

 

As previous posters have said, Pierre is not an average center fielder. He has good stats, for a leadoff hitter and he knows HOW to do it.

 

no it won't. i'd take pie or patterson any day of the week over pierre. although i think pie isn't ready for the bigs, you're crazy if you think he's got three years left in the minors. he'll be called up in august at the latest, and i wouldn't be surprised if he makes the team out of spring training next year.

 

i challenge you to find one thing juan pierre does that corey can't do better (besides bunting, because who cares about bunting). corey is capable of hitting for at least the same average as pierre, and if he had a different approach, there's no doubt in my mind he could get on base as much as pierre does. he also plays much better defense, and is much better at stealing bases.

 

keep juan pierre away from this team.

[UK1679666180]

Hairston could only hope that he could put up Pierre like numbers over the course of a year.

 

Like the last year and a half (500+ ABs), b/c in those 500+ ABs Hairston has been a better offensive player than Pierre.

[TB_11]

Poor defender? Do you know who Pierre is or are you thinking of another player? He covers a great deal of ground in CF, in case you haven't seen him play before. Just because he doesn't have a great arm doesn't make him a poor defender. :lol:

 

Also, to those that compare him to Hairston there is one big difference. Pierre has actual hit well over the course of an entire year (200+ hits 3 of last 4 years). Hairston is nothing more than a part time player.

 

Sometimes I think some people are a little over optimistic projecting how good "such and such" is going to be, just because they are young. Hairston could only hope that he could put up Pierre like numbers over the course of a year.

 

I don't think it's so much as Pierre vs "who else we have who plays center" as much as Pierre vs "What we'd have to give up to get him." I just can't see Florida for anything small to get him.

 

As far as Linear Weights, Bill Feelber has a book out now called The Book on the Book where he uses Linear Weights to do a lot of his analysis. I'm halfway through it, and it's not a bad read if you want to pick it up.

[imb]

I'll never understand this obsession with Pierre. It's like some people just assume that he's really good.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

One more time for those that missed it. I think I'll post it on each new page.

 

Pierre's CS more than negate his OBP % and he does not play a good CF. His one talent is bunting.

 

This is why more of the baseball world needs to become familiar with Linear Weights. For those of you scoring at home, here are the typical run values of some common offensive events:

 

Event	Value
-------------
BB        .34
1B        .50
2B        .72
3B       1.04
HR       1.44
SB        .18
CS       -.32
Out      -.09
SO       -.10
GIDP     -.37

In summary: SB aren't that significant as all they can do is advance one ruuner one base. CS, on the other hand, have an extreme negative impact on run scoring. Not only do they use up a precious out, they also negate whatever positive event lead to the runner reaching base in the first place. This is why the break even point for SB is pretty high, upwards of 70% or so. If a player isn't at least that successful, his activities on the basepaths are hurting his team, not helping it.

 

Oh, and I'll take a pass on Pierre. Slap-hitting poor defenders with low OBP aren't hard to find if we really want one. (Come to think of it, we already have a few on the team.)

 

Poor defender? Do you know who Pierre is or are you thinking of another player? He covers a great deal of ground in CF, in case you haven't seen him play before. Just because he doesn't have a great arm doesn't make him a poor defender. :lol:

 

Also, to those that compare him to Hairston there is one big difference. Pierre has actual hit well over the course of an entire year (200+ hits 3 of last 4 years). Hairston is nothing more than a part time player.

 

Sometimes I think some people are a little over optimistic projecting how good "such and such" is going to be, just because they are young. Hairston could only hope that he could put up Pierre like numbers over the course of a year.

 

players that hit for high average with no patience and no power are not complete players. i'm sorry, but unless you're a player like ichiro, you need to walk. pierre does not walk. his high obp is directly tied to his high batting average, and in a year like this, when he's not hitting anything, he becomes completely worthless. throw in the fact that he has no power to speak of, and you have a big liability on your hands. sure, he's great if he's hitting .320, but if you think juan pierre is capable of consistently getting 200 hits a year, you're out of your mind. if he had patience and power, he could still have a down year and be somewhat valuable to a team.

 

there are FAR better options for the chicago cubs than juan pierre. there's no way he's coming here anyway because of pie, but still, i completely loathe the idea of getting him.

[UK1679666180]

I'll never understand this obsession with Pierre. It's like some people just assume that he's really good.

 

FWIW, Pierre has an OPS of .746 over the last year and a half (.355/.391). Hairston has an OPS of .760 (.365/.395).

 

Those steals aren't worth the player(s) req'd to get him or the salary Pierre will command.

[CUBZ99]

I'll never understand this obsession with Pierre. It's like some people just assume that he's really good.

 

FWIW, Pierre has an OPS of .746 over the last year and a half (.355/.391). Hairston has an OPS of .760 (.365/.395).

 

Those steals aren't worth the player(s) req'd to get him or the salary Pierre will command.

 

Pierre is a career .307 hitter with a .356 OBP and Walks more than he SO's.

 

Hairston is a career .262 hitter with a .335 OBP with more SO's than Walks.

 

Pierre is gold glove caliber.

 

Hairston is a back up 2B, who is playing OF.

 

 

I like Hairston too, but there really is no comparison.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

I'll never understand this obsession with Pierre. It's like some people just assume that he's really good.

 

FWIW, Pierre has an OPS of .746 over the last year and a half (.355/.391). Hairston has an OPS of .760 (.365/.395).

 

Those steals aren't worth the player(s) req'd to get him or the salary Pierre will command.

 

Pierre is a career .307 hitter with a .356 OBP and Walks more than he SO's.

 

Hairston is a career .262 hitter with a .335 OBP with more SO's than Walks.

 

Pierre is gold glove caliber.

 

Hairston is a back up 2B, who is playing OF.

 

 

I like Hairston too, but there really is no comparison.

How in the name of all that is holy is Pierre a gold glove caliber OF?!?!?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

BP has Pierre being well below average defensively the past two years. 11 runs below average in '03, and 7 runs below average in '04.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'll never understand this obsession with Pierre. It's like some people just assume that he's really good.

 

FWIW, Pierre has an OPS of .746 over the last year and a half (.355/.391). Hairston has an OPS of .760 (.365/.395).

 

Those steals aren't worth the player(s) req'd to get him or the salary Pierre will command.

 

Pierre is a career .307 hitter with a .356 OBP and Walks more than he SO's.

 

Hairston is a career .262 hitter with a .335 OBP with more SO's than Walks.

 

Pierre is gold glove caliber.

 

Hairston is a back up 2B, who is playing OF.

 

 

I like Hairston too, but there really is no comparison.

 

I think there is quite a comparison. Pierre is no gold glove CF. Where is OPS in your discussion?

[CUBZ99]

I'll never understand this obsession with Pierre. It's like some people just assume that he's really good.

 

FWIW, Pierre has an OPS of .746 over the last year and a half (.355/.391). Hairston has an OPS of .760 (.365/.395).

 

Those steals aren't worth the player(s) req'd to get him or the salary Pierre will command.

 

Pierre is a career .307 hitter with a .356 OBP and Walks more than he SO's.

 

Hairston is a career .262 hitter with a .335 OBP with more SO's than Walks.

 

Pierre is gold glove caliber.

 

Hairston is a back up 2B, who is playing OF.

 

 

I like Hairston too, but there really is no comparison.

How in the name of all that is holy is Pierre a gold glove caliber OF?!?!?

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6550

 

His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie.

[cheapseats]

Pierre is gold glove caliber.

 

Jeter has a gold glove, so "gold glove caliber" doesn't mean much.

 

According to the BP rate statistic, probably the most accurate way we currently have of measuring defense, Pierre is a slightly below average centerfielder over the course of his career.

 

He has good range, but he doesn't take good paths to balls, and his arm is a noodle.

[CUBZ99]

I'll never understand this obsession with Pierre. It's like some people just assume that he's really good.

 

FWIW, Pierre has an OPS of .746 over the last year and a half (.355/.391). Hairston has an OPS of .760 (.365/.395).

 

Those steals aren't worth the player(s) req'd to get him or the salary Pierre will command.

 

Pierre is a career .307 hitter with a .356 OBP and Walks more than he SO's.

 

Hairston is a career .262 hitter with a .335 OBP with more SO's than Walks.

 

Pierre is gold glove caliber.

 

Hairston is a back up 2B, who is playing OF.

 

 

I like Hairston too, but there really is no comparison.

 

I think there is quite a comparison. Pierre is no gold glove CF. Where is OPS in your discussion?

 

OPS? Sorry, but I don't think your leadoff hitters SLG % matters. If you want a homerun hitter at leadoff, fine. But most people would prefer someone who can get on base.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I'll never understand this obsession with Pierre. It's like some people just assume that he's really good.

 

FWIW, Pierre has an OPS of .746 over the last year and a half (.355/.391). Hairston has an OPS of .760 (.365/.395).

 

Those steals aren't worth the player(s) req'd to get him or the salary Pierre will command.

 

Pierre is a career .307 hitter with a .356 OBP and Walks more than he SO's.

 

Hairston is a career .262 hitter with a .335 OBP with more SO's than Walks.

 

Pierre is gold glove caliber.

 

Hairston is a back up 2B, who is playing OF.

 

 

I like Hairston too, but there really is no comparison.

 

I think there is quite a comparison. Pierre is no gold glove CF. Where is OPS in your discussion?

 

OPS? Sorry, but I don't think your leadoff hitters SLG % matters. If you want a homerun hitter at leadoff, fine. But most people would prefer someone who can get on base.

 

Slugging does not equal home runs. It's the ability to get past first base on your own, which is essential to scoring runs consistently. Given Pierre's low SLG and poor SB%, that makes him less valuable as a leadoff hitter.