Do we want Pierre?

[chopsx9]

Emphatic no. Also, as O_O pointed out in a similar debate about Podsednik, it's not quite as fair to just add SB to SLG, since they are not the same as a total base, which has other impacts(advancing and scoring runners). It's more fair to do with CS, since it's a pretty black and white measure of whether he got out or not. That said, It probably is fair to add SB in some way, but it probably shouldn't be considered as valuable as a total base.

 

Fair enough on the inclusion on SB's, but by the same token aren't taking BB's as equal to hits somewhat overvaluing them for some of the same reasons when calculating similar peripherals. Maybe less so than SB's, but SB's also are effectivley all extrabase hits which is not an insignificant value. I agree that SB's maybe shouldn't be added 1 for 1, but I would also argue that BB's should be somewhat discounted as well. (Obviously depending on what you are calculating)

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm inclined to say no to Pierre. If he could be acquired for a player like Wellemeyer(which we could not), I might get him and platoon him with Hairston.

 

His value is way overrated.

[CubinNY]

This reminds me of the "We need Kenny Lofton back" threads. The Cubs scored no more runs after they got Loften then before he came. The Cubs don't need Juan and his crooked hat wearing self. His OBP is negated by his CS and he doesn't play "smart" baseball. His one talent is bunting, and that talent is not worth his salary or the prospects it would take to get him, IMO. Edited July 18, 2005 by CubinNY

[SCCubbieFAN]

I'm not a big fan of acquiring him either. However, if the Cubs are finished with the CP experiment and are more concerned now with Pie as the CF of the future, what about a swap of CPatt for Pierre with JHJ moving to LF. Another thought, Philly needs a CF. Could the Cubs be looking at Pierre to move him in a deal to Philly to acquire Wagner?

[DomingoRamos]

If you can get Pierre for the right price, sure why not. He might not have all world numbers this year, but he's a proven game changer. As someone has mentioned, a similar debate of Pierre's can be made to Posednik in years past. Not the greatest .obp, not the greatest defender, no power, etc., but as Posednik has turned it around and is a significant contributer for the WhiteSox. Why can't Pierre do that? He's proved himself in the past, and he's younger. Not sure about everyone else, but I'd be more comfortable with Pierre in CF down the stretch than Jerry Hairston. Pierre is a proven commodity, and who knows, he could flourish under a new team.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Pierre is overrated, but I'd still like to have him. The market sucks right now. We may just have to take him.

 

I'd like to see Pie stay in the minors for the next 1-2 years. Hairston is not going to be our regular every day center fielder come next season. His D is too shaky. We're going to stick someone out there. I don't love Pierre's price tag, but he'll do.

[brinoch]

This reminds me of the "We need Kenny Lofton back" threads. The Cubs scored no more runs after they got Loften then before he came. The Cubs don't need Juan and his crooked hat wearing self. His OBP is negated by his CS and he doesn't play "smart" baseball. His one talent is bunting, and that talent is not worth his salary or the prospects it would take to get him, IMO.

 

Moreover, I think the long grass at Wrigley would really hurt Pierre's OBP, such as it is. No thanks.

[Guest]

Emphatic no. Also, as O_O pointed out in a similar debate about Podsednik, it's not quite as fair to just add SB to SLG, since they are not the same as a total base, which has other impacts(advancing and scoring runners). It's more fair to do with CS, since it's a pretty black and white measure of whether he got out or not. That said, It probably is fair to add SB in some way, but it probably shouldn't be considered as valuable as a total base.

 

Fair enough on the inclusion on SB's, but by the same token aren't taking BB's as equal to hits somewhat overvaluing them for some of the same reasons when calculating similar peripherals. Maybe less so than SB's, but SB's also are effectivley all extrabase hits which is not an insignificant value. I agree that SB's maybe shouldn't be added 1 for 1, but I would also argue that BB's should be somewhat discounted as well. (Obviously depending on what you are calculating)

This is why more of the baseball world needs to become familiar with Linear Weights. For those of you scoring at home, here are the typical run values of some common offensive events:

 

Event	Value
-------------
BB        .34
1B        .50
2B        .72
3B       1.04
HR       1.44
SB        .18
CS       -.32
Out      -.09
SO       -.10
GIDP     -.37

In summary: SB aren't that significant as all they can do is advance one ruuner one base. CS, on the other hand, have an extreme negative impact on run scoring. Not only do they use up a precious out, they also negate whatever positive event lead to the runner reaching base in the first place. This is why the break even point for SB is pretty high, upwards of 70% or so. If a player isn't at least that successful, his activities on the basepaths are hurting his team, not helping it.

 

Oh, and I'll take a pass on Pierre. Slap-hitting poor defenders with low OBP aren't hard to find if we really want one. (Come to think of it, we already have a few on the team.)

[OldHappyCubFan]

Why not?

 

Pierre's having a down year, but has proven to be a force at the top of the order. He did ALOT for the Marlins in 2003. Hes the type of playing that has alot of intangible's, and MORE IMPORTANTLY knows what it takes to win in the playoffs. Too many Cub fans only read stat lines, and solely judge a player based on stats. Some of you forget to realize, making it to the playoffs is one thing, but winning in them is another. Juan Pierre brings experience to the team.

 

People didn't give Pods a chance in the offseason, and he wasen't mentioned anywhere on Sportscenter. All of a sudden he gets on a pretty good team, and the lights turn on. Pierre needs a spark, and a fire. He will get that if he gets to play everyday in Wrigley Field. Pie is way too young to be playing in the majors right now, and I don't want Hairston in CF down the stretch. Hairston's a bench player at best.

 

Hmm lets see, stole 60+ bases in 2003, Stole 45 in 2003. Batting .326 last year, and .300 in 2003.

 

What has Hairston or Pie done? Nothing

Edited July 18, 2005 by OldHappyCubFan

[ltb]

yuck

no thanks

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Why not?

 

Pierre's having a down year, but has proven to be a force at the top of the order. He did ALOT for the Marlins in 2003. Hes the type of playing that has alot of intangible's, and MORE IMPORTANTLY knows what it takes to win in the playoffs. Too many Cub fans only read stat lines, and solely judge a player based on stats. Some of you forget to realize, making it to the playoffs is one thing, but winning in them is another. Juan Pierre brings experience to the team.

 

People didn't give Pods a chance in the offseason, and he wasen't mentioned anywhere on Sportscenter. All of a sudden he gets on a pretty good team, and the lights turn on. Pierre needs a spark, and a fire. He will get that if he gets to play everyday in Wrigley Field. Pie is way too young to be playing in the majors right now, and I don't want Hairston in CF down the stretch. Hairston's a bench player at best.

 

Walker is a better leadoff hitter than anyone mentioned in this thread thus far. The only reason to keep him out of there is because he has enough power to be a great 2 hitter, and that can work while Hairston is getting on base at an improved clip. I'd rather get a power hitting player with that OBP and hit them or Barrett second than overpay for a singles hitter because we're enamored with speed, with no concern to SB efficiency.

[Chocolate Milk]

I'd take him if the deal was right. He is better than people are giving him credit for here.

[nolanwood]

I'd take him if the deal was right. He is better than people are giving him credit for here.

 

 

I agree :)

[katway]

Pierre is a nice table setter... perfect for our lineup, but I wouldn't pay too much for him.

[Wheelimus]

Hmm, marginal prospect(s) for Pierre (since it's a firesale and they won't be able to afford him).

 

Hairston and Patterson to the Reds for Dunn

 

:lol:

[SouthSideRyan]

What has Hairston or Pie done? Nothing

 

Something the Marlins coulda said to themselves before the 2003 season.

[muntjack]

Not that I want to see Felix in Wrigley this summer, but......

 

20 yr old Pie= 28 yr old Pierre, while being cheaper and not costing us any prospects.

 

 

I'm fairly certain that Felix could put up a .319 OBP% right now, with the infield grass and all.

[chopsx9]

[This is why more of the baseball world needs to become familiar with Linear Weights. For those of you scoring at home, here are the typical run values of some common offensive events:

 

Event	Value
-------------
BB        .34
1B        .50
2B        .72
3B       1.04
HR       1.44
SB        .18
CS       -.32
Out      -.09
SO       -.10
GIDP     -.37

In summary: SB aren't that significant as all they can do is advance one ruuner one base. CS, on the other hand, have an extreme negative impact on run scoring. Not only do they use up a precious out, they also negate whatever positive event lead to the runner reaching base in the first place. This is why the break even point for SB is pretty high, upwards of 70% or so. If a player isn't at least that successful, his activities on the basepaths are hurting his team, not helping it.

 

Oh, and I'll take a pass on Pierre. Slap-hitting poor defenders with low OBP aren't hard to find if we really want one. (Come to think of it, we already have a few on the team.)

 

That is pretty interesting. I have wondered on a couple of occasions if anyone had come up with something like this. Is there somewhere to read up on this. I can't get around some of the numbers (shouldn't GIDP be a bigger -'ve, at leat CS + out ? , and a couple of others but maybe if I read something the logic would fall into place.

 

Poor OBP might be a little harsh he's only been under .350 once in the five preceeding years and over .370 twice - not Bonds like but I am not sure it's poor.

[Backtobanks]

I'm not a big fan of acquiring him either. However, if the Cubs are finished with the CP experiment and are more concerned now with Pie as the CF of the future, what about a swap of CPatt for Pierre with JHJ moving to LF. Another thought, Philly needs a CF. Could the Cubs be looking at Pierre to move him in a deal to Philly to acquire Wagner?

 

I was just going to make the same suggestion: CP for Pierre. This would allow the Cubs to give Pie the time he needs in the minors. When Pie is ready, Pierre becomes reasonably attractive trade bait.

[LoneStarCubFan]

I was just going to make the same suggestion: CP for Pierre. This would allow the Cubs to give Pie the time he needs in the minors. When Pie is ready, Pierre becomes reasonably attractive trade bait.

 

Juan Pierre = Neifi Perez

Felix Pie = Ronny Cedeno

[Chocolate Milk]

I was just going to make the same suggestion: CP for Pierre. This would allow the Cubs to give Pie the time he needs in the minors. When Pie is ready, Pierre becomes reasonably attractive trade bait.

 

Juan Pierre = Neifi Perez

Felix Pie = Ronny Cedeno

 

Yeah....what?

[frostwyrm]

Hairston in CF is not the problem. I'd rather upgrade at LF and release Neifi.

[ThePenguin11]

I was just going to make the same suggestion: CP for Pierre. This would allow the Cubs to give Pie the time he needs in the minors. When Pie is ready, Pierre becomes reasonably attractive trade bait.

 

Juan Pierre = Neifi Perez

Felix Pie = Ronny Cedeno

 

Yeah....what?

 

I think its an analogy. Because those values are far from equivilent. I think he meant:

 

Juan Pierre : Neifi Perez

 

as

 

Felix Pie : Ronny Cedeno

[UK1679666180]

I'd rather see them get a LF'er at this stage, I consider Hairston to be the starting CF'er at this stage. Between Hairston and Pierre, I don't see much of an upgrade.

 

You have to ride it out with Hairston and Walker at this stage and see where it gets you at the top of the order.

 

I'd like to keep Hairston at the top and get a middle of the order hitter, they'd still another reliever (besides Williamson) and a SS depending if you consider Nomar an option.

[Springfield_CUBBY]

I was just going to make the same suggestion: CP for Pierre. This would allow the Cubs to give Pie the time he needs in the minors. When Pie is ready, Pierre becomes reasonably attractive trade bait.

 

Juan Pierre = Neifi Perez

Felix Pie = Ronny Cedeno

 

Yeah....what?

 

I think its an analogy. Because those values are far from equivilent. I think he meant:

 

Juan Pierre : Neifi Perez

 

as

 

Felix Pie : Ronny Cedeno

 

Actually, I believe it's more like:

 

QUESTION:

Nefi Perez is to Ronny Cedano

as

Juan Pierre is to whom?

 

ANSWER:

Felix Pie