Marlins (Junk) vs Cubs (TBD): 09/22/26, 6:40 PM

[Jason Ross]

For real, I'm not going to blame 100% of this game on Matt Shaw, because when you play 12 innings and you give up six runs in the top of the 12th, it can't be one human being or one play. But damn that pathetic bunt attempt was pathetic. Little league baseball instincts tell you not to bunt at a baseball above the bat in a 2-0 count. You have to be better in that situation. 

Should Counsell have called it off? Probably. Are bunts horsefeathers dumb? Hell yeah. But damn that's just Baseball 101. Real bad play and he deserves a strong share of that L. 

[Geographyhater8888]

I’m usual cynical but this team has the most upside of any team since 2016 in my opinion. It just sucks that the path through the NL is so difficult.

This is all contingent on Bregmans health. 

[gflore34]

Even, I, as a fan of Shaw ,the baseball player, has had enough.  If he has any value at all I'd like to see him moved for some pitching.  That is, pitching with velocity, be it starter or reliever.  Time and again he has failed to execute fundamentals, he cannot lay off high FB's and will probably never hit well enough to make up for his many-fold mistakes.

Edited Wednesday at 12:33 PM by gflore34

[gflore34]

22 minutes ago, Jason Ross said:

For real, I'm not going to blame 100% of this game on Matt Shaw, because when you play 12 innings and you give up six runs in the top of the 12th, it can't be one human being or one play. But damn that pathetic bunt attempt was pathetic. Little league baseball instincts tell you not to bunt at a baseball above the bat in a 2-0 count. You have to be better in that situation. 

Should Counsell have called it off? Probably. Are bunts horsefeathers dumb? Hell yeah. But damn that's just Baseball 101. Real bad play and he deserves a strong share of that L. 

I remember Greg Maddux saying laying down a bunt is easy if try to "catch" the baseball with the bat.

Edited Wednesday at 12:33 PM by gflore34

[Rcal10]

8 hours ago, UMFan83 said:

Jed convinced PTR to spend approximately $45m more in payroll this season, pushing them into a range he's never allowed before and he's going to get back a team that wins less games than the year before, with postseason TBD.  Really bad look for Jed to trot out a roster with a bottom 5 pitching staff, injuries or not.   The fact that he can't find one reliable reliever on this team and avoids velocity like the plague is jarring especially considering there's a team spending a fraction of what the Cubs do that's able to build a dominant bullpen, trade away half of them, and then build another one the next year.

Something has to change with their approach to pitching.  Even if they somehow get hot and make a postseason run, the current approach is just not working well enough.

This narrative leaving out a whole lot of things. First, they will be very close to the same amount of wins. So basically the same team. Next, they had a crazy amount of injuries. Healthy this is a mid 90’s to high 90’s win team. And it is better prepared for the playoffs than last years team. Maybe they don’t go as far, but they are a better team than last year. 
I do agree with you on the pitching side. They need to change something there. 

[Rcal10]

1 hour ago, Geographyhater8888 said:

I’m usual cynical but this team has the most upside of any team since 2016 in my opinion. It just sucks that the path through the NL is so difficult.

This is all contingent on Bregmans health. 

Correct. Bregman back and the circle of trust, pen arms, continue to pitch well and they can win. It sjcked to lose yesterday, but it was great seeing Palencia, Rolison, Civale, and Zeferjahn pitch well again. 

[mul21]

1 hour ago, Jason Ross said:

For real, I'm not going to blame 100% of this game on Matt Shaw, because when you play 12 innings and you give up six runs in the top of the 12th, it can't be one human being or one play. But damn that pathetic bunt attempt was pathetic. Little league baseball instincts tell you not to bunt at a baseball above the bat in a 2-0 count. You have to be better in that situation. 

Should Counsell have called it off? Probably. Are bunts horsefeathers dumb? Hell yeah. But damn that's just Baseball 101. Real bad play and he deserves a strong share of that L. 

I'm squarely placing the blame on Counsell.  There was no reason to pinch hit for Conforto in the 6th inning, especially when you know there aren't many lefties in the Marlins pen and you don't have any other LHB on the bench.  Shaw was awful in every AB, either flailing at pitches in his eyes or the pathetic attempt at the bunt.  He was 0-4 and all of them came against RHP (yes, him coming is was the reason for a pitching change).  I hated the move when it was made and it very likely negatively affected the outcome of the game.

[Geographyhater8888]

17 minutes ago, Rcal10 said:

Correct. Bregman back and the circle of trust, pen arms, continue to pitch well and they can win. It sjcked to lose yesterday, but it was great seeing Palencia, Rolison, Civale, and Zeferjahn pitch well again. 

If he’s in the lineup last night they likely win. 

[Rcal10]

10 minutes ago, mul21 said:

I'm squarely placing the blame on Counsell.  There was no reason to pinch hit for Conforto in the 6th inning, especially when you know there aren't many lefties in the Marlins pen and you don't have any other LHB on the bench.  Shaw was awful in every AB, either flailing at pitches in his eyes or the pathetic attempt at the bunt.  He was 0-4 and all of them came against RHP (yes, him coming is was the reason for a pitching change).  I hated the move when it was made and it very likely negatively affected the outcome of the game.

I view the move Counsell made as one of many that if/when it doesn’t work people complain about it.  I am not saying you were wrong not to like it. Or at the time you didn’t like it. But it wasn’t an inexcusable move. It just didn’t work. 

[Rcal10]

2 minutes ago, Geographyhater8888 said:

If he’s in the lineup last night they likely win. 

For sure. 

[Jason Ross]

15 minutes ago, mul21 said:

I'm squarely placing the blame on Counsell.  There was no reason to pinch hit for Conforto in the 6th inning, especially when you know there aren't many lefties in the Marlins pen and you don't have any other LHB on the bench.  Shaw was awful in every AB, either flailing at pitches in his eyes or the pathetic attempt at the bunt.  He was 0-4 and all of them came against RHP (yes, him coming is was the reason for a pitching change).  I hated the move when it was made and it very likely negatively affected the outcome of the game.

Going to push back here: this very much feels like a little of column A (you just don't like Matt Shaw) and B (Shaw was bad so retroactively applying results). Counsell didn't lose this game on his own (I do think he should have called off the bunt when the count went 2-0; that's a miss). He certainly didn't lose , though, it by going with Shaw vs a RHP over Conforto (who has NINE PA's against LHP all year) against a LHP in the 6th inning. 

I won't say it was the right or the wrong choice in the 6th: that's a coin flip. He took one bad option (Faucher vs Conforto or Peterson vs Shaw) and went with another. That happens.  The Marlins don't have a ton of LHP, but if players execute in the 6-9th, the Cubs never get to that long-game point and you can't play for the 11th inning in the 6th.

[Rcal10]

1 hour ago, Jason Ross said:

For real, I'm not going to blame 100% of this game on Matt Shaw, because when you play 12 innings and you give up six runs in the top of the 12th, it can't be one human being or one play. But damn that pathetic bunt attempt was pathetic. Little league baseball instincts tell you not to bunt at a baseball above the bat in a 2-0 count. You have to be better in that situation. 

Should Counsell have called it off? Probably. Are bunts horsefeathers dumb? Hell yeah. But damn that's just Baseball 101. Real bad play and he deserves a strong share of that L. 

I agree you can’t pin the game on Shaw. But I am not as mad about him letting the 2-0 pitch go for a strike as I am trying to bunt that awful head high pitch. If he lets that go there is a good chance at a walk. Then the Happ fly to left wins it. If he bunts at the 2-0 and is successful they probably want Happ. Of course, Nico walked too. I realize sequences change based on situations, but that Ahaw AB was so critical. That said, they could have won if anyone else stepped up. 

[mul21]

2 minutes ago, Jason Ross said:

Going to push back here: this very much feels like a little of column A (you just don't like Matt Shaw) and B (Shaw was bad so retroactively applying results). Counsell didn't lose this game on his own (I do think he should have called off the bunt when the count went 2-0; that's a miss). He certainly didn't lose , though, it by going with Shaw vs a RHP over Conforto (who has NINE PA's against LHP all year) against a LHP in the 6th inning. 

I won't say it was the right or the wrong choice in the 6th: that's a coin flip. He took one bad option (Faucher vs Conforto or Peterson vs Shaw) and went with another. That happens.  The Marlins don't have a ton of LHP, but if players execute in the 6-9th, the Cubs never get to that long-game point and you can't play for the 11th inning in the 6th.

He ended up with a worse matchup in the 8th inning as well with runners at first and second.  Again, I hated it because there were no more LHB available on the bench to go against a predominantly RHP bullpen and it burned them in regulation and extra innings.

[Jason Ross]

2 minutes ago, mul21 said:

He ended up with a worse matchup in the 8th inning as well with runners at first and second.  Again, I hated it because there were no more LHB available on the bench to go against a predominantly RHP bullpen and it burned them in regulation and extra innings.

Right, but you can't play for mythical things in the future, you have to play for now. Cade Gibson is bad overall and pretty solid against LHH. He strikes out 23% of lefties and has an xFIP in the mid 3.00s. Conforto has nine PA's against lefties. 

You can tell me between two coin flip choices you'd have gone with Conforto there; I'd accept that as a rational, yet bad matchup. Much like I find Faucher (who has an xFIP in the mid 3.00s against RHP) vs Shaw an equally rational, yet bad matchup. 

When you tell me Craig Counsell lost the game because of that; you've gone too far. Counsell did not lose a game like that. Shaw was bad, but his production was on his own and was not known to Craig (like it is to us living in the future). The Marlins also had tougher lefties (Dax Fulton) hanging around in the pen still, so more lefties were still there for later. Shaw was going to hit sometime in that game.

[mul21]

1 minute ago, Jason Ross said:

Right, but you can't play for mythical things in the future, you have to play for now. Cade Gibson is bad overall and pretty solid against LHH. He strikes out 23% of lefties and has an xFIP in the mid 3.00s. Conforto has nine PA's against lefties. 

You can tell me between two coin flip choices you'd have gone with Conforto there; I'd accept that as a rational, yet bad matchup. Much like I find Faucher (who has an xFIP in the mid 3.00s against RHP) vs Shaw an equally rational, yet bad matchup. 

When you tell me Craig Counsell lost the game because of that; you've gone too far. Counsell did not lose a game like that. Shaw was bad, but his production was on his own and was not known to Craig (like it is to us living in the future). The Marlins also had tougher lefties (Dax Fulton) hanging around in the pen still, so more lefties were still there for later. Shaw was going to hit sometime in that game.

I'd also refer you to the article Matt put out this morning referencing the failed bunt attempt by Shaw in Milwaukee.  We've repeatedly seen him unable to get a bunt down in a critical situation, and not just this season.  He put a player in a position he was very likely to fail because he doesn't possess the skill to execute what was asked of him right now, and that's the other piece of the blame I put on him.

[Jason Ross]

5 minutes ago, mul21 said:

I'd also refer you to the article Matt put out this morning referencing the failed bunt attempt by Shaw in Milwaukee.  We've repeatedly seen him unable to get a bunt down in a critical situation, and not just this season.  He put a player in a position he was very likely to fail because he doesn't possess the skill to execute what was asked of him right now, and that's the other piece of the blame I put on him.

I'd also refer you to the fact that I have said a few times that Counsell should have called the bunt off at 2-0. But his decision to bunt in the 11th does not have anything to do with his pinch hitting in the 6th. There is no way Craig Counsell could have known that five innings later Matt Shaw would be at bat in a 2-2 game then. 

Two things can be true:
1. I think Craig Counsell probably should have taken that bunt off. I don't think it was a bad call initially; Shaw against RHP isn't a great matchup, you expect him to be able to get a bunt down regardless of a failed attempt before. People deserve a chance to show they have grown. But once it got to 2-0 and you had all that count leverage he should have swung away.

2. I don't blame Counsell for not having a crystal ball in the 6th that would happen.

[We Got The Whole 9]

2 hours ago, Jason Ross said:

For real, I'm not going to blame 100% of this game on Matt Shaw, because when you play 12 innings and you give up six runs in the top of the 12th, it can't be one human being or one play. But damn that pathetic bunt attempt was pathetic. Little league baseball instincts tell you not to bunt at a baseball above the bat in a 2-0 count. You have to be better in that situation. 

Should Counsell have called it off? Probably. Are bunts horsefeathers dumb? Hell yeah. But damn that's just Baseball 101. Real bad play and he deserves a strong share of that L. 

Pretty sure that was the 2nd time this year he looked completely pathetic trying to bunt. He does not have the instinct. 

[We Got The Whole 9]

2 hours ago, Geographyhater8888 said:

I’m usual cynical but this team has the most upside of any team since 2016 in my opinion. It just sucks that the path through the NL is so difficult.

This is all contingent on Bregmans health. 

It most certainly does not have the upside that the defending Champs had. This pitching staff is playing a different sport. 

[Jason Ross]

7 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Pretty sure that was the 2nd time this year he looked completely pathetic trying to bunt. He does not have the instinct. 

Yeah, it was really ugly. And I'll blame him specifically for that. That's a little thing you should have rounded out by now. He has to be better there. Had the wife not been asleep at that moment, I would have yelled at my screen.

[Geographyhater8888]

6 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

It most certainly does not have the upside that the defending Champs had. This pitching staff is playing a different sport. 

I meant to say 2017. 

[s2obed]

Everyone wants to blame Matt Shaw for last night but the offense was 1-18 with RISP. That just awful, idc if the wind was howling in.

[Andy]

46 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Pretty sure that was the 2nd time this year he looked completely pathetic trying to bunt. He does not have the instinct. 

Which is why I blame Counsell more for that. People here don't like Shaw and I'm with that, but if he sucks at bunting, don't tell him to bunt. His chances of getting a hit, or even of making weak enough contact that it functioned as a bunt, were significantly higher than a successful bunt given what we've seen from him bunting.

[chibears55]

2 hours ago, mul21 said:

I'm squarely placing the blame on Counsell.  There was no reason to pinch hit for Conforto in the 6th inning, especially when you know there aren't many lefties in the Marlins pen and you don't have any other LHB on the bench.  Shaw was awful in every AB, either flailing at pitches in his eyes or the pathetic attempt at the bunt.  He was 0-4 and all of them came against RHP (yes, him coming is was the reason for a pitching change).  I hated the move when it was made and it very likely negatively affected the outcome of the game.

This, if its 7th inning with guys on base or later,  then yes pinch hit for him against a lefty, but he does this in the 5th/6th inning for no particular reason other than matchups, and then theres no counter if needed later in game. 

Counsell makes it too easy to use up his bench options for later in game because of this.

[chibears55]

1 hour ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Pretty sure that was the 2nd time this year he looked completely pathetic trying to bunt. He does not have the instinct. 

I think the only decent sac bunter on team is Amaya 

[Irrelevant Dude]

36 minutes ago, Andy said:

People here don't like Shaw and I'm with that, but if he sucks at bunting, don't tell him to bunt.

Problem is he also sucks at putting the ball in play, so take your pick.