Cubs (Taillon) vs Pirates (Chandler): 5/27/26, 5:40pm

[Jason Ross]

10 minutes ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

I mean are you really trying to argue that coaching doesn't matter in baseball 😂 that's just an insane position to me.  Not something I believe at all.  I guess we can agree to disagree.  I'm not an MLB player or in a clubhouse but I do understand human psychology and the importance of accountability.  

I didn't say coaching doesn't matter; coaching, especially in terms of player dev, matters a ton. You're putting words in my mouth.

What I am arguing against is the idea that a managerial change is anywhere near the top-10 reasons why the Philadelphia Phillies, or any team, begins winning. Whatever slight psychological change it creates is entirely masked by things like data regressing to the means, schedules, etc. 

Don Mattingly didn't make Christopher Sanchez pitch 42 scoreless innings. Getting to pitch against SF, the As, the Reds, the Rockies and the Padres did that. Sanchez may tell you it's because Don has created a looser clubhouse, but it's almost assuredly because he's good and those teams can't hit water if they fell out of a boat on top of positive luck (anytime you go 42 innings pitched without a run you're getting the benefit of luck, too).

[SpongeWorthy]

8 minutes ago, Outshined_One said:

Except the illustration actually supports the contrary point.  This season isn't over, and there's a shitload of baseball left to play.

Ten losses in a row suck, but the 2017 Dodgers had a 1-17 run, including 11 losses in a row, they still made the WS that year, and they lost the WS in large part because their opponent engaged in a massive cheating operation (cue the Bregman guy).

There's nothing wrong with criticizing Hoyer's decisions or individual players, but the people who are ready to walk into traffic over this team would benefit from some perspective.

the reason not to over react is because the dodgers who have been been consistently dominant since 2017 had a similarly bad stretch?

[PeanutPunch33]

7 minutes ago, Jason Ross said:

I didn't say coaching doesn't matter; coaching, especially in terms of player dev, matters a ton. You're putting words in my mouth.

What I am arguing against is the idea that a managerial change is anywhere near the top-10 reasons why the Philadelphia Phillies, or any team, begins winning. Whatever slight psychological change it creates is entirely masked by things like data regressing to the means, schedules, etc. 

Don Mattingly didn't make Christopher Sanchez pitch 42 scoreless innings. Getting to pitch against SF, the As, the Reds, the Rockies and the Padres did that. Sanchez may tell you it's because Don has created a looser clubhouse, but it's almost assuredly because he's good and those teams can't hit water if they fell out of a boat on top of positive luck (anytime you go 42 innings pitched without a run you're getting the benefit of luck, too).

Okay, I can agree with that.  Sanches is just a stud though.  One of the best pitchers in baseball. 

Like you mentioned, managers have an impact on younger talent and player development.  I'm not liking the way they are handling Ballesteros and PCA.  

[SpongeWorthy]

5 minutes ago, Jason Ross said:

I didn't say coaching doesn't matter; coaching, especially in terms of player dev, matters a ton. You're putting words in my mouth.

What I am arguing against is the idea that a managerial change is anywhere near the top-10 reasons why the Philadelphia Phillies, or any team, begins winning. Whatever slight psychological change it creates is entirely masked by things like data regressing to the means, schedules, etc. 

Don Mattingly didn't make Christopher Sanchez pitch 42 scoreless innings. Getting to pitch against SF, the As, the Reds, the Rockies and the Padres did that. Sanchez may tell you it's because Don has created a looser clubhouse, but it's almost assuredly because he's good and those teams can't hit water if they fell out of a boat on top of positive luck (anytime you go 42 innings pitched without a run you're getting the benefit of luck, too).

if we are all slaves to data regression and scheduling quirks then what does it matter if we fire the manager? 

I actually don’t really care if we move on from counsell or not for the reasons you’re gesturing at but what affirmative case has he actually established? triply so for jed. 

the bar has to be higher than don’t be the reason your team is in a tailspin.

[PeanutPunch33]

12 minutes ago, abuck1220 said:

I mean expecting more than zero (0) division titles in a five year span when your payroll is double that of your competition doesn’t seem unreasonable or instant gratification-y to me. 

Thank you.  This is the best way of putting it.  

[chibears55]

Would i like to see Hoyer fired, Yes, will he get fired, No.

Ricketts not going to fire a guy in his first year of what was probably another 5 year deal.

Does he deserve to get fired after what will be his 6th season,  probably.

He has had close to or been over 200 mil payroll the last 4 seasons now.

Team accomplishments: 4th, 3rd , and 3 second place finishes, 1 postseason appearance. 

His farm system is ranked in the bottom third now,  he has 3 prospects ranked in the 80s, 2 are currently blocked by players under contract for next 3-6 yrs, and 1 is out injured for the season. 

His 5 number 1 picks: Wicks- sucks, Horton- good but out for season,  Shaw- ok , likely a utility player, Smith- traded for a 1 yr player, Conrad- injured, missed first month 

His top Free Agent signings hasn't exactly been over the top guys, just regular players.

Suzuki, Taillon,  Imanaga, Stroman, Bellinger, Swanson,  Bregman , Boyd,  Kelly, Maton

He has made some good trades, and some can argue not so good.

I dont know,  i think Hoyer overall hasn't done a good enough job as POBO and probably would of never gotten an extension from most other teams, but i do believe Ricketts will keep him for at least 2 more seasons of this new deal before deciding if he should be let go or not then.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jason Ross]

4 minutes ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

Okay, I can agree with that.  Sanches is just a stud though.  One of the best pitchers in baseball. 

Like you mentioned, managers have an impact on younger talent and player development.  I'm not liking the way they are handling Ballesteros and PCA.  

The Cubs have done great stuff with Pete, so I'm not sure what more they're supposed to do. As with Ballesteros, what's there to do? The Cubs have had tons of success with young players over the last few years. Pete, Shaw, Busch, and Amaya just to name a few. All have struggled initially, made swing and approach adjustments and made progress. PCA just went 0-3 the other day on three balls over 100mph and with the lowest xBA of .660. H's frustrated and trying to do much on the field, but they've lost 10 games in a row and he's 23. I'm not sure what else there is to do right now with him or Ballesteros. 

We have to remember, we only see the games. And it's unfair to both sit here and talk out of one side of the mouth about how much the things in the clubhouse matter that we can't see (like the attitudes and looseness of players off the field) and pretend we know what's happening the other 21 hours of every day we can't see on the TV with someone like Pete or Ballesteros and that work.

[chibears55]

Same lineup as yesterday...

I dont know why they brought up Alcantara and Ramirez just to sit on the bench,  either play them or send them back to Iowa so they can continue to get steady AB.

They could of just kept Lopez and brought up Kingery to sit on the bench 🙄🤷

[Jason Ross]

12 minutes ago, SpongeWorthy said:

if we are all slaves to data regression and scheduling quirks then what does it matter if we fire the manager? 

I actually don’t really care if we move on from counsell or not for the reasons you’re gesturing at but what affirmative case has he actually established? triply so for jed. 

the bar has to be higher than don’t be the reason your team is in a tailspin.

I think firing the manager right now is ridiculous. I think the fan outrage at firing the manager is not only incredibly over reactionary, but one borne out of a strong misunderstanding of what is going to fix anything.

Counsell has done what you'd expect anyone to do in this situation. He's played his best players in the positions they should be played in most every day. He's dealt with injuries to the best of his ability. He has both changed the lineup (didn't work), given guys a day off (didn't work) and kept things the same (didn't work). He can't make Cade Horton's elbow healthy, he can't make PCA's 100+mph line drives land, he can't make Suzuki hit a very hittable fastball right now. The only thing he hasn't tried is just putting random people in random spots. 

Firing Counsell feels like a good idea because it's visible, and actionable. But as I said, it's a massive misunderstanding in the issues of this team. Replacing Counsell with (insert whatever manager you can imagine here) would fix zero of the issues with the Cubs right now. But I guess social media warriors would feel better for about three hours. And fans would rather feel better for three hours than accept that Counsell isn't really the issue here. 

It isn't like Craig Counsell is calling some antiquated offense like an NFL coach, or refusing to play the good players but right now, you'd assume Ian Happ was starting at shortstop and the Cubs were playing with a literal ostrich playing right field with how badly people are thinking Craig should be gone.

[chibears55]

Hoyer wont fire Counsell in his 3rd year of 5, that would be admitting he made a mistake, and these are the guys he gave him to use. 

Plus, as much of his decision making has been head scratchers, you cant blame the guy for his rotation ending up on the IL, including a couple of their depth guys, and bullpen guys.

Bats have all gone ice cold over the last 2 weeks.

If this was year 4 or 5 of his deal and he had a loaded roster of guys that were favored but we're healthy and underachieving, then you look into making a managerial change to hopefully spark something with the players, but this is year 3 coming off a good season,  and his pitching staff is on life support as a unit.

Edited 11 hours ago by chibears55

[chibears55]

Cubs are winning a blowout tonight...

12-3 is my prediction 

[chibears55]

Great AB by PCA, 10 pitch walk

[Derwood]

 Best plate appearance of the season for PCA

[Tangled Up in Plaid]

RISP RISP RISP RISP RISP

[Stratos]

In 2023 (Ross era) the Cubs were 6th in runs scored in April and 26th in May, so this problem goes beyond Counsell.  It happens every year.   I don't really see how it's Hoyers fault either. 

Apparently you can change the coaching staff and half the lineup and it still happens.

[JHBulls]

Bregman strikes out. Geez, I wonder what’s about to happen now. 

[JHBulls]

1 minute ago, JHBulls said:

Bregman strikes out. Geez, I wonder what’s about to happen now. 

Just like I designed it…

[Tangled Up in Plaid]

RISP FOR THE RISP GOD LET'S GO

[Stratos]

OMG!!  Some RBIs !!!

[Derwood]

DFA THAT MAN

[Geographyhater8888]

Suzuki still sucks. Keep Happ instead. 

 

[cl smooth]

RUNS?!

A LEAD?!

 

[CubinNY]

1 hour ago, SpongeWorthy said:

if this continues careening into the side of a mountain and Jed gets fired no one is going to be surprised and his tenure will be as non descript as AKMEs was in the long span of time despite whatever (not really large) differences there were season to season. it’ll be like comparing the John Fox era to the Dave Wannstedt era or something—no one will care enough to parse out the differences 

The Ricketts may do a lot of things, but one will not be firing Hoyer. He is them and they are him. 

[chibears55]

Good news, cubs finally have a lead, bad news, Taillon taking the mound

🙄🙄🙄

[Rex Buckingham]

Seiya sure hasn't covered himself in glory early