Dear Cubs - don't let the Maddux option vest

[sethuel1]

He's having a better season than Wood because he's been injured, but how do you figure he's been better than Zambrano?

 

 

I'd like Maddux to be benched, but that will never happen which is why the Cubs will probably always be known as the lovable losers. If winning was the main priority he would be benched.

 

Maddux is leading your team in wins and will probably win 15 again this season. Zambrano only has 5 wins on the season and has not faired so well of late. Z has given up 20 ER in the last 5 games. I know there are a lot of variables that go into winning games, but to me it all comes down to getting a W. Maddux knows how to win games just look at his track record. Speaking of track record, Wood is always injuried. Maddux is a very durable player and will get his 200 innings. Thus deserving the money.

 

Would you give Jeff Suppan $9 mil?

[goonys evil twin]

He's having a better season than Wood because he's been injured, but how do you figure he's been better than Zambrano?

 

 

I'd like Maddux to be benched, but that will never happen which is why the Cubs will probably always be known as the lovable losers. If winning was the main priority he would be benched.

 

Maddux is leading your team in wins and will probably win 15 again this season. Zambrano only has 5 wins on the season and has not faired so well of late. Z has given up 20 ER in the last 5 games. I know there are a lot of variables that go into winning games, but to me it all comes down to getting a W. Maddux knows how to win games just look at his track record. Speaking of track record, Wood is always injuried. Maddux is a very durable player and will get his 200 innings. Thus deserving the money.

 

Maddux has given up 23 ER in the last 5 games.

 

Wins are a team stat. "Knowing how to win" is a completely made up bogus intangible for the "stats don't matter" crowd. Maddux racked up great win totals throughout his career because he's been a great pitcher on very good to great teams. Now he is a mediocre pitcher on a mediocre team. There is no guarantee he'll win 15 this year. He certainly didn't figure out how to win last night, when he completely blew the game giving up 2 out rallies with more meatballs against a subpar lineup. Staying healthy and racking up innings is nice, but guys like Steve Trachsel did that for years, and it wasn't worth $9 million.

[1wizard]

Would you give Jeff Suppan $9 mil?

 

Absolutely not! And I would not have signed Maddux to a $9 million dollar contract for the final year either. But the Cubs were in a bidding war for his services and that is what it took to get him in Cubbie Blue.

 

Maddux has given up 23 ER in the last 5 games.

 

Wins are a team stat. "Knowing how to win" is a completely made up bogus intangible for the "stats don't matter" crowd. Maddux racked up great win totals throughout his career because he's been a great pitcher on very good to great teams. Now he is a mediocre pitcher on a mediocre team.

 

Well, Z has given up 20 ER over 5 games. So what is the difference between him and Maddux? And I have already acknowledge that "there are a lot of variables that go into winning games." Yet, Z plays on the same "mediocre team" as Maddux. And Maddux has almost as many wins in June (4) as Z has had all season (5).

 

There is no way that you can bench Greg Maddux if it is driven by finacial reasons. The Cubs organization would be ripped to shreads by the players union and the league. Plus it would send a terrible message to possible FA's. If Greg is struggling, I think he has earned a chance to prove himself. We are talking about one of the greatest pitchers of all time.

[BigbadB]

A trade to San Diego makes a lot of sense for both teams. The Cubs have lots of starting pitchers to slide into his place. San Diego is a team that is in a pennant race. Maddux knows he's not doing well, and a move to San Diego could/would knock a whole run off his ERA, which could prolong his career and help him leave the game like the champion he's always been.

 

Most of the home runs he's given up this year are shots that don't even make the warning track in San Diego.

 

I've always been a big Maddux fan, but I'd trade him to San Diego if he agreed to go. I'd certainly talk to him about it before even considering it, out of respect for Greg.

 

But, a deal like this could be a win/win/win for everyone. Cubs free up some salary for next year, San Diego fills their rotation hole, and Greg is in a better situation.

[1wizard]

He certainly didn't figure out how to win last night, when he completely blew the game giving up 2 out rallies with more meatballs against a subpar lineup.

 

How is Maddux looking about right now? After 7 innings of three hit ball, he has lowered his ERA to 4.75 with 8 wins. Again, he will win his 15 games and earn his contract.

[imb]

Yeah, that 4.75 ERA looks amazing.

[Coach C]

Yeah, that 4.75 ERA looks amazing.

 

Psst, it's 4.67 now. :P

[1wizard]

IMB! wrote:

Yeah, that 4.75 ERA looks amazing.

 

 

Psst, it's 4.67 now.

 

I'll admit it is not amazing but he has dropped below 5 which was why people were crying earlier. He does have 8 wins which constitutes 19% of the Cubbies wins. As I have said all along, Maddux will get the Cubbies 15 wins and earn his money.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

IMB! wrote:

Yeah, that 4.75 ERA looks amazing.

 

 

Psst, it's 4.67 now.

 

I'll admit it is not amazing but he has dropped below 5 which was why people were crying earlier. He does have 8 wins which constitutes 19% of the Cubbies wins. As I have said all along, Maddux will get the Cubbies 15 wins and earn his money.

Or you could say that the hitters are earning his money for him...

[imb]

QUIT TALKING ABOUT WINS, CRIPES.

[TruffleShuffle]

Tony LaRussa is an idiot, he put Roger Clemens on the All-Star team instead of Maddux... Clemens only has 7 wins and Maddux has 8!

[1wizard]

Or you could say that the hitters are earning his money for him...

 

HA! That is funny on several levels. First of all, the Cubs offense is carrying the pitching staff now? Secondly, the guy threw a shutout through 8 innings. How did the offense carry him today? The guy is a legend. He and Roger could be the last 300 game pitchers we see in a long time. Enjoy the man's accomplishments while you can.

 

 

Tony LaRussa is an idiot, he put Roger Clemens on the All-Star team instead of Maddux... Clemens only has 7 wins and Maddux has 8!

 

TShuffle,

 

I know you are kidding but you are taking things way out of proportion. I am not saying Greg is as dominant as he has been in the past, or as good as Clemens. Yet the guy has earn the right to continue pitching in the Cubs starting rotation. He is on target to win 15 games again this year. And if the team takes him out of that role because of financial obligation than it would be the worst move that the franchise has ever made.

[Warpticon]

Or you could say that the hitters are earning his money for him...

 

HA! That is funny on several levels. First of all, the Cubs offense is carrying the pitching staff now? Secondly, the guy threw a shutout through 8 innings. How did the offense carry him today? The guy is a legend. He and Roger could be the last 300 game pitchers we see in a long time. Enjoy the man's accomplishments while you can.

 

He is certainly a legend. I fail to see how that is in any way relevant to his 2005 and 2006 value.

 

To get a lot of wins doesn't necessarily require pitching better. I hate to invoke Randy Johnson/Shawn Estes from last year, but come on. Maddux hasn't pitched consistently at all this season, and has been downright bad on many occasions. He wouldn't have so many wins without the run support he's been getting.

 

Tony LaRussa is an idiot, he put Roger Clemens on the All-Star team instead of Maddux... Clemens only has 7 wins and Maddux has 8!

 

TShuffle,

 

I know you are kidding but you are taking things way out of proportion. I am not saying Greg is as dominant as he has been in the past, or as good as Clemens. Yet the guy has earn the right to continue pitching in the Cubs starting rotation. He is on target to win 15 games again this year. And if the team takes him out of that role because of financial obligation than it would be the worst move that the franchise has ever made.

 

Sure, it's a lot worse than letting a willing Maddux entering his prime run off to Atlanta.

 

That's not to say that I think the Cubs should sabotage his option vesting. That's just stupid. But let's not pretend that he's produced above his actual value this year.

[katway]

So can we call Maddux classless for leaving the Cubs to take more money with the Braves, and then leaving the Braves to take more money with the Cubs once again? After all, a lot of people are willing to call the Cubs classless if they find a way to avoid paying Maddux $9M per year. Clearly Maddux has treated the game like a business, hasn't he?

 

The Braves let Maddux go by not offering arbitration. At that point they couldn't sign him until May. Essentially, it was the Braves that cut ties with Maddux. Or, at the very least, it was mutual since he wanted to play for someone with a chance to win and they wanted to get younger. In any event, it would be classless for the Cubs to sabatoge a deal when they knew exactly what they were getting. If they wanted the deal contingent on ERA, etc. then they should have made that deal. Instead they signed a deal based on innings... Oh well.

[TruffleShuffle]

So can we call Maddux classless for leaving the Cubs to take more money with the Braves, and then leaving the Braves to take more money with the Cubs once again? After all, a lot of people are willing to call the Cubs classless if they find a way to avoid paying Maddux $9M per year. Clearly Maddux has treated the game like a business, hasn't he?

 

The Braves let Maddux go by not offering arbitration. At that point they couldn't sign him until May. Essentially, it was the Braves that cut ties with Maddux. Or, at the very least, it was mutual since he wanted to play for someone with a chance to win and they wanted to get younger. In any event, it would be classless for the Cubs to sabatoge a deal when they knew exactly what they were getting. If they wanted the deal contingent on ERA, etc. then they should have made that deal. Instead they signed a deal based on innings... Oh well.

 

OK, well as I said before, his being on the team next year gives the Cubs a noticeably worse chance of winning than if they were to allocate their resources more efficiently, and not be paying $9M for an average pitcher. But hey, we're Cub fans... what's another year of suffering through mediocrity?

[bleedcubbieblue]

I just don't get it, and can someone please tell me which pitcher had the most wins on the Cubs last year? As long as he keeps putting up W's, he can stay as long as he wants. While he is no longer the ace he was years ago, he still is pretty good, and wins on a more consistent basis than our aces seem to.

 

I also don't get this whole worry about the money, trust me, the Tribune can afford it, and Maddux is up there in the "one of the most deserving" category, and it isn't like he is not producing. If he was on the Yankees, do you think fans would be worrying about him vesting for next year? It just kills me, how much Cub fans worry about payroll, and this goes back to the Tribune doing such a great job, drumming into our heads about fiscal responsibility. While I understand about trying to keep payroll to a minimum, the Tribune can afford it, and they have made many worse signings in the past. Maddux not winning what he has so far, we would be done for already, and while we are close to that now, you could have stuck a fork in us already, at this point.

 

I also enjoy the whole 100 million dollar team discussion we were force fed earlier this year. If there is one thing the Tribune gets across to us (the fans), is how much this team is always costing them. Now, if they only told us how much they were making on them, then maybe I would be a little more sympathetic.

 

BCB

[Mark_R]

I just don't get it, and can someone please tell me which pitcher had the most wins on the Cubs last year? As long as he keeps putting up W's, he can stay as long as he wants. While he is no longer the ace he was years ago, he still is pretty good, and wins on a more consistent basis than our aces seem to.

 

I also don't get this whole worry about the money, trust me, the Tribune can afford it, and Maddux is up there in the "one of the most deserving" category, and it isn't like he is not producing. If he was on the Yankees, do you think fans would be worrying about him vesting for next year? It just kills me, how much Cub fans worry about payroll, and this goes back to the Tribune doing such a great job, drumming into our heads about fiscal responsibility. While I understand about trying to keep payroll to a minimum, the Tribune can afford it, and they have made many worse signings in the past. Maddux not winning what he has so far, we would be done for already, and while we are close to that now, you could have stuck a fork in us already, at this point.

 

I also enjoy the whole 100 million dollar team discussion we were force fed earlier this year. If there is one thing the Tribune gets across to us (the fans), is how much this team is always costing them. Now, if they only told us how much they were making on them, then maybe I would be a little more sympathetic.

 

BCB

 

This post will likely escalate into another WINS ARE NOT THE BEST MEASURE FOR PITCHERS' SUCCESS argument.

 

We could have a whole seperate forum for that and debates on Corey and it may rival the Gamethread for total posts.

[badger1679666666]

I just don't get it, and can someone please tell me which pitcher had the most wins on the Cubs last year? As long as he keeps putting up W's, he can stay as long as he wants. While he is no longer the ace he was years ago, he still is pretty good, and wins on a more consistent basis than our aces seem to.

 

 

*Sigh*

[bleedcubbieblue]

Why the sigh?

 

While I don't think Maddux is the best pitcher on this staff, I don't think having next year vest is the worst thing in the world. He does have 313 wins, and by reading some of the posts, you would think he had a subpar year last year, and is on target to win as many games this year, yet, Kerry Wood, with all his press, has yet to win as many games in one season, as Greg's "subpar" year last year. If he is lucky, he sure has had enough of it throughout his career, then again, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.

 

The worry over next year vesting says more to the way the Tribune runs this ballclub, and the excuses they make for not getting better players, then it does about Maddux and what he is doing.

 

BCB

[Shawon12]

Why the sigh?

 

While I don't think Maddux is the best pitcher on this staff, I don't think having next year vest is the worst thing in the world. He does have 313 wins, and by reading some of the posts, you would think he had a subpar year last year, and is on target to win as many games this year, yet, Kerry Wood, with all his press, has yet to win as many games in one season, as Greg's "subpar" year last year. If he is lucky, he sure has had enough of it throughout his career, then again, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.

 

The worry over next year vesting says more to the way the Tribune runs this ballclub, and the excuses they make for not getting better players, then it does about Maddux and what he is doing.

 

BCB

Well, the fact is, the Tribune does own the Cubs and I agree with your statements about how they operate. However, it is for these very reasons that I don't want Maddux's contract to vest. They may have a lot of money, but they are not going to spend it all. We could be a lot more efficient with that 10 mil.

[badger1679666666]

Why the sigh?

 

BCB

 

I didn't want to get into this argument again. Suffice to say, that wins don't mean much when evaluating a pitcher. The argument that Wood has only won 14 games is tired and old and if you use that as an evaluation for Wood's talent or performance, you're simply being shortsighted.

 

WHIP, .BAA, QS, ERA, BB:K ratio, k/9 are all more important numbers for a Starter than Wins (though the last 2 are not that much of a bigger deal)

 

If wood didn't have the lowest Run Support of Cub pitchers from 2001-2003, he would have won many more than 14 games in a season.

 

By your rationale, Maddux is better than Clemens this year because he has more wins.

 

Wins matter for the HOF, Cy Young award, and maybe the All-star game. That's it. OF all the stats I listed, WHIP and .BAA are the most important tools in judging the effectiveness of a pitcher.

[CubinNY]

Why the sigh?

 

While I don't think Maddux is the best pitcher on this staff, I don't think having next year vest is the worst thing in the world. He does have 313 wins, and by reading some of the posts, you would think he had a subpar year last year, and is on target to win as many games this year, yet, Kerry Wood, with all his press, has yet to win as many games in one season, as Greg's "subpar" year last year. If he is lucky, he sure has had enough of it throughout his career, then again, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.

 

The worry over next year vesting says more to the way the Tribune runs this ballclub, and the excuses they make for not getting better players, then it does about Maddux and what he is doing.

 

BCB

 

It's his way of saying your post has no merit. It is quite condescending and uncalled for, but lots of people do it, so it makes it ok.

 

[beating dead horse] Wins/losses are a team stat but that does not mean they are unimportant when discussing a pitcher. They are just another piece of evidence used to make a judgment. By the same token ERA is not the only important stat for judging the value of a pitcher. The Cubs are now 8 games over .500 when Maddux pitches (over the last 1.5 years)[/beating dead horse]

[badger1679666666]

 

It's his way of saying your post has no merit. It is quite condescending and uncalled for, but lots of people do it, so it makes it ok.

 

 

Actually, it's my way of showing frustration for seeing the same point brought up that is incorrect. But whatever you say. Thanks for speaking for me.

 

If a sigh is condescending, people need to get thicker skin.

[CubinNY]

 

Actually, it's my way of showing frustration for seeing the same point brought up that is incorrect.

 

Says who?

[imb]

Only the best baseball minds in the world?