Dear Cubs - don't let the Maddux option vest

[TruffleShuffle]

Obligatory post-bad game bump :P

[Warpticon]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

300 + wins

a few K's shy of 3000

 

There's not another pitcher in baseball, at the moment, that has a shot at those numbers. If I'm not mistaken, there's only 9 pitchers to have ever reached that mark.

 

I'll take Greg as our 4th man any day of the week. He knows the game better than anybody else.

 

Greg has won 15 or more games every single year he's played since he came up in 1987 (excluding the 5 games he started in his short stint in 1986). I'll take a 15 game winner as our 4th man in the rotation! Not to mention his 14 gold gloves.....and pitching expertise he provides to our young pitching staff.

 

I'm not trying to put you down, but you won't find many people here who pay attention to pitchers' W-L records, especially not ones that date back to the 1980's.

 

You're right about folks here not valuing W/L, but nolanwood DOES make a good point about the relative value in the contracts the Cubs are paying Prior and Z. If those numbers were redistributed, I don't think anyone would have a problem.

 

W/L record for a pitcher is an arbitrary, team statistic. A pitcher cannot control what his offense does.

 

You're absolutely right!! He controlled what the other teams offense does - which is half the battle.

 

But it's only half the battle if he goes the distance, and even then, it's not quite half (defense counts for something). Maddux had a shot at the win today. Do you think he deserved it? Wood pitched a much, much better game Wednesday and got a no-decision. Is that fair? And what could he have done about it? I guess he could have just pitched a perfect game and not have had to worry about it, but that's a pretty stupid expectation, isn't it?

[TruffleShuffle]

But, there is absolutely NO reason to discredit that stat or say it is arbitrary - Maddux earned those Wins too. Are you saying he had 300 "coincidences" in his pitching career?

 

No, but you're not getting the right reason that he won all those games. He has 300 wins because he's been durable, and because for 11 straight years, he was in the top 8 in the league in ERA - in all but one of those years he was top 4 in ERA. When you make all your starts and pitch that well, you're bound to win 15+ games. The last two years he's been able to win that many games because he's been durable and he's gotten good run support. If Kerry Wood had that much run support, he'd have won plenty more than 14 games in a year before.

[Outshined_One]

But, there is absolutely NO reason to discredit that stat or say it is arbitrary - Maddux earned those Wins too. Are you saying he had 300 "coincidences" in his pitching career?

 

No, but you're not getting the right reason that he won all those games. He has 300 wins because he's been durable, and because for 11 straight years, he was in the top 8 in the league in ERA - in all but one of those years he was top 4 in ERA. When you make all your starts and pitch that well, you're bound to win 15+ games. The last two years he's been able to win that many games because he's been durable and he's gotten good run support. If Kerry Wood had that much run support, he'd have won plenty more than 14 games in a year before.

 

...not to mention a bullpen that could hold a freakin' lead.

[Bull]

Prior - 2.5 million

 

Zambrano - approx 3.5 million

 

I think we're getting off pretty cheap there - I can think of 29 other teams in baseball that would pay those figures without question.

 

Pretend like we're paying mad dog 3mil, and we're giving Prior & Z that extra 6mil.

 

300 + wins

a few K's shy of 3000

 

There's not another pitcher in baseball, at the moment, that has a shot at those numbers. If I'm not mistaken, there's only 9 pitchers to have ever reached that mark.

 

I'll take Greg as our 4th man any day of the week. He knows the game better than anybody else.

 

Greg has won 15 or more games every single year he's played since he came up in 1987 (excluding the 5 games he started in his short stint in 1986). I'll take a 15 game winner as our 4th man in the rotation! Not to mention his 14 gold gloves.....and pitching expertise he provides to our young pitching staff.

 

I'm not trying to put you down, but you won't find many people here who pay attention to pitchers' W-L records, especially not ones that date back to the 1980's.

 

You're right about folks here not valuing W/L, but nolanwood DOES make a good point about the relative value in the contracts the Cubs are paying Prior and Z. If those numbers were redistributed, I don't think anyone would have a problem.

 

I Would!

 

You don't pay someone with that little service time $9MM. I know your point is production, but mine is that you must have guys with less than 6 years service time (and thus a bargain salary) producing for you. And you must be fiscally responsible with veterans. If you don't, you can't afford to put quality pieces on the rest of the roster.

[Chocolate Milk]

I hate to interject a point into this discussion, but I will.

 

 

His option is going to vest.

 

Hope that helps in some way!

[JC]

Prior to the season, Maddux needed 187.2 innings to get his option to vest.

 

Maddux has thrown 101.2 innings so far in the first three mos. of the season. He has made 17 starts.

 

Thus, with half of the season over, Maddux has only to pitch 86 more innings to vest. (Note the sig.)

 

Barring some injury, Maddux will easily make his mark.

 

Some may even go so far as to say his contract is akin to a large web-footed bird, chiefly of the oceans of the Southern Hemisphere, and having a hooked beak and long narrow wings.

[TruffleShuffle]

Been bumping this thread a lot lately. The Cubs are doing all they can to fall out of the wild card hunt, and Maddux is doing his part to prove that he's not worth anywhere close to $9M next year. In fact, I foresee him being slightly below average by next season.

 

I still say the Cubs should not damage their chances of winning next year to win a couple more meaningless games this year. Maddux's salary next year is probably the worst financial problem the Cubs will have in 2006.

[YearofDaCubs]

Been bumping this thread a lot lately. The Cubs are doing all they can to fall out of the wild card hunt, and Maddux is doing his part to prove that he's not worth anywhere close to $9M next year. In fact, I foresee him being slightly below average by next season.

 

I still say the Cubs should not damage their chances of winning next year to win a couple more meaningless games this year. Maddux's salary next year is probably the worst financial problem the Cubs will have in 2006.

I hope he gets traded or benched because 9mil for next year is wayyy tooo much for a pitcher who is a shell of his former self. Hendry should've never gave an option for a 3rd year. Two was enough.

[XZero771679666304]

Been bumping this thread a lot lately. The Cubs are doing all they can to fall out of the wild card hunt, and Maddux is doing his part to prove that he's not worth anywhere close to $9M next year. In fact, I foresee him being slightly below average by next season.

 

I still say the Cubs should not damage their chances of winning next year to win a couple more meaningless games this year. Maddux's salary next year is probably the worst financial problem the Cubs will have in 2006.

I hope he gets traded or benched because 9mil for next year is wayyy tooo much for a pitcher who is a shell of his former self. Hendry should've never gave an option for a 3rd year. Two was enough.

 

If he stinks the joint up for the rest of the season, he may retire. He is a proud guy who already has a ton of money. If and when he does retire, I say hire him as pitching coach.

[LeftCoastCubFan]

Been bumping this thread a lot lately. The Cubs are doing all they can to fall out of the wild card hunt, and Maddux is doing his part to prove that he's not worth anywhere close to $9M next year. In fact, I foresee him being slightly below average by next season.

 

I still say the Cubs should not damage their chances of winning next year to win a couple more meaningless games this year. Maddux's salary next year is probably the worst financial problem the Cubs will have in 2006.

I hope he gets traded or benched because 9mil for next year is wayyy tooo much for a pitcher who is a shell of his former self. Hendry should've never gave an option for a 3rd year. Two was enough.

Just a few points:

 

-You bumped this because Maddux had to bad starts in a row. In his last 8 starts though, he’s won 5 of 8 games. Yes he was bad in those 3 losses, but pretty decent in the other 5. Over the same period, the Cubs are 10-15 in the games he hasn’t started; so Greg is hardly the problem.

 

-We also don’t know if the 9million would be available. There was never any details given out when he was signed defining what the “special money” was. It’s very possible all or part of his salary will be deducted from the budget should he not be a Cub in 2006.

 

-Benching him really isn’t an option at this point. It’s not ethical and Hendry has shown he is above board in all his business dealings. If they were to do it now, it would likely lead to a grievance being filed and Greg could win a good part of the money back.

 

-With a softer schedule after the break, it is unlikely the Cubs will become sellers before the end of the month (though not impossible). That makes trading him unlikely.

[katway]

-Benching him really isn’t an option at this point. It’s not ethical and Hendry has shown he is above board in all his business dealings. If they were to do it now, it would likely lead to a grievance being filed and Greg could win a good part of the money back.

 

Agreed. To intentionally sit a player so an option doesn't vest is completely unethical. If the Cubs did this then no respectible free agent would consider them, they would be subject to grievances, and they would lose the support of this fan.

[TruffleShuffle]

-Benching him really isn’t an option at this point. It’s not ethical and Hendry has shown he is above board in all his business dealings. If they were to do it now, it would likely lead to a grievance being filed and Greg could win a good part of the money back.

 

Agreed. To intentionally sit a player so an option doesn't vest is completely unethical. If the Cubs did this then no respectible free agent would consider them, they would be subject to grievances, and they would lose the support of this fan.

 

OK, here are a couple of other reasons it would be wise to sit him:

 

(a) We already have too many starting pitchers - Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Williams, Rusch, Mitre, Hill... the first three are clearly better than Maddux, and it can be argued that two of the last four are at least as good if not better than Maddux now.

 

(b) Lots of teams play their young guys when they're out of the playoff race to determine which young guys will be able to contribute to the team in subsequent years. You're not pulling Prior, Wood or Z from the rotation. You shouldn't pull Williams, because he's one of the guys you want to evaluate for next year. Rusch doesn't have to start, but what about Mitre? How are we going to know if he might find enough consistency to be a good starting pitcher in the majors if he keeps pitching out of the bullpen? Not only does keeping Maddux in the rotation hurt the Cubs from a financial standpoint next year, but it also hurts in terms of player evaluation.

 

 

Also, the argument that no free agent would consider the Cubs if they did this is completely absurd. 95 percent of MLB players have proven time and time again that they will go where the money is. If the Cubs have money and give a player his best offer, chances are very good he'll be a Cub - no matter what happens to Greg Maddux.

[Chocolate Milk]

It's going to vest.

[1wizard]

I cannot believe this is even being debated.

 

First of all, Greg Maddux is a class act and a first ballot Hall of Famer. Secondly, he has a chance to win 15 games this year. That would make 18 straight seasons with 15 wins. Considering that Kerry Wood has never won 15 games and Prior and Zambrano have only done so once, a 15 game winner would be a good season for any Cub pitcher at this point. And with the history of injuries in your rotation, he might be the only consistant pitcher you have.

 

This would be a huge mistake by the Cubs franchise to sit him out of games or did any thing to jeopardize Maddux's chances for another 15 game season. If they were afraid to spend the money than they should not have given the contract to the aging superstar. Just imagine if you did not have him!!!!

[1wizard]

Sorry for the ramblings, but I am a Greg Maddux fan even though he wears Cubbie Blue.

[TruffleShuffle]

I cannot believe this is even being debated.

 

First of all, Greg Maddux is a class act and a first ballot Hall of Famer. Secondly, he has a chance to win 15 games this year. That would make 18 straight seasons with 15 wins. Considering that Kerry Wood has never won 15 games and Prior and Zambrano have only done so once, a 15 game winner would be a good season for any Cub pitcher at this point. And with the history of injuries in your rotation, he might be the only consistant pitcher you have.

 

This would be a huge mistake by the Cubs franchise to sit him out of games or did any thing to jeopardize Maddux's chances for another 15 game season. If they were afraid to spend the money than they should not have given the contract to the aging superstar. Just imagine if you did not have him!!!!

 

Yeah that would be awful, we'd have one less starting pitcher with an ERA over 5.00. I'm pretty sure that if Jeff Suppan had a $9M option that was about to vest for next year, you'd be pretty annoyed about it too.

[JC]

Sorry for the ramblings, but I am a Greg Maddux fan even though he wears Cubbie Blue.

 

Are you a fan of 5.02 ERAs also?

 

I dare say you won't find a soul on this board that doesn't have some level of affection and/or deep respect for Maddux, either as a Cub or as a masterful pitcher. But, his time has clearly passed. He is a mere shell of his former self and he is costing a boatload. As a Cardinal fan, I'm sure you revel in the fact that the Cubs are committed to paying his wrinkled arm $9M next year.

 

And, I just can't stomach another argument about the use of wins as an evaluation tool for a pitcher.

[YearofDaCubs]

Sorry, but consistent and 5 era do not go together.

[katway]

 

Also, the argument that no free agent would consider the Cubs if they did this is completely absurd. 95 percent of MLB players have proven time and time again that they will go where the money is. If the Cubs have money and give a player his best offer, chances are very good he'll be a Cub - no matter what happens to Greg Maddux.

 

If the Cubs intentionally sit Maddux for financial reasons then they'll have little chance of getting a Scott Boras client. Nor will any decent agent agree that their client sign an option deal tied to performance with the Cubs. So, unethical behaviour would handcuff them in the free agent market place. Sure, they'll find people willing to play for them, but at what cost? Will the Cubs have to guarantee the last year of contracts instead of having options?

[CubfaninCA]

Send Maddux to either Anaheim or San Diego. Maddux has a home in SoCal and both teams are a pitcher short. It appears Escobar will be out for a while and Anaheim's going w/ a rookie. The Cubs should be able to pick up a good prospect from either club.

[1wizard]

Yeah that would be awful, we'd have one less starting pitcher with an ERA over 5.00. I'm pretty sure that if Jeff Suppan had a $9M option that was about to vest for next year, you'd be pretty annoyed about it too.

 

Sorry I was not as clear as I should have been. I was referring to the last time period where Prior and Wood were on the DL. If Maddux wasn't there your rotation would have been ugly.

 

Z

Rusch

Mitre

Williams

?

 

As for Maddux's contract, I really do not think it is an option to sit him. You have to live with the contract. I don't recall to many fans complaining about it when he signed. In fact, I remember the majority of Cub fans thinking that he would put you over the top. And to be honest, he has done fairly well. He is having a better season than Zambrano and Wood. And from what I have been reading on here, it sounds as if the Cubbies should have plenty of funds left for next year (Sammy's contract is gone).

 

It could have been worse the Cubs could have signed Carlos Beltran.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't recall to many fans complaining about it when he signed. In fact, I remember the majority of Cub fans thinking that he would put you over the top. And to be honest, he has done fairly well. He is having a better season than Zambrano and Wood.

 

Maddux has not done fairly well. He's been awful this season. He's been mediocre since returning to the team. Many people were excited about his return, but many thought the Cubs grossly overpaid and have been fearing the day when it would be painfully obvious to the rest of the world that he wasn't worth $9m per year.

[woodprior04]

He is having a better season than Zambrano and Wood.

 

He's having a better season than Wood because he's been injured, but how do you figure he's been better than Zambrano?

 

 

I'd like Maddux to be benched, but that will never happen which is why the Cubs will probably always be known as the lovable losers. If winning was the main priority he would be benched. I don't care if the Cubs "owe it to him", he owes the Cubs an ERA under 5 but he hasn't done that. I hope he gets traded for a decent prospect, let someone else pay him 9 mil next year. Why pay a guy 9 mil when we have several guys who can give us similar production for under a mil?

[1wizard]

He's having a better season than Wood because he's been injured, but how do you figure he's been better than Zambrano?

 

 

I'd like Maddux to be benched, but that will never happen which is why the Cubs will probably always be known as the lovable losers. If winning was the main priority he would be benched.

 

Maddux is leading your team in wins and will probably win 15 again this season. Zambrano only has 5 wins on the season and has not faired so well of late. Z has given up 20 ER in the last 5 games. I know there are a lot of variables that go into winning games, but to me it all comes down to getting a W. Maddux knows how to win games just look at his track record. Speaking of track record, Wood is always injuried. Maddux is a very durable player and will get his 200 innings. Thus deserving the money.