Dear Cubs - don't let the Maddux option vest

[Backtobanks]

Maddux as the 4th/5th starter isn't so bad. Most teams would love that. I don't understand the logic in pulling him from games to stop that option. Put more stress on the pen is something that is going to hurt the other starters and the team overrall.

 

I'd lose a lot of respect for a team that did that, no way the Cubs should or would do that.

 

I totally agree. If the Cubs pitching staff was healthy and Maddux really was our 4th/5th starter, I think most people would be satisfied with his performance. When Maddux becomes your 2nd/3rd starter, then you have problems. Jon Garland has pitched great this year, but he's facing the other team's 4th/5th starter and not their ace. With decent run support and help from the bullpen, Maddux can do a decent job. You know what to expect from Maddux, 3-4 runs in 6-7 innings. Not great, but not bad for a 4th/5th starter.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

So can we call Maddux classless for leaving the Cubs to take more money with the Braves, and then leaving the Braves to take more money with the Cubs once again? After all, a lot of people are willing to call the Cubs classless if they find a way to avoid paying Maddux $9M per year. Clearly Maddux has treated the game like a business, hasn't he?

 

I didn't say it was fair. I'm only talking about public perception, which is the only thing that really matters from a PR standpoint. The media and other players aren't going to care about Maddux treating the game as a business, they're just seeing "the Cubs ripped off Maddux".

[TB_11]

The guy is old now. His ERA+ the last two seasons has been 105 and 113, and if the first quarter is any indication it's not going to be any better this year. The 105 ERA+ his last year with the Braves made it a pretty lousy signing for the amount of money he got, considering that we lost a younger, better pitcher (Clement) who we could have kept for the money they're paying Maddux.

 

Maddux's first quarter shouldn't be used to project how the rest of the season is going to pan out. Toward the end of his career, Maddux has become a post-All-Star break pithcer. Last year he allowed 33 fewer baserunners while pitching 10 less innings after the All-Star break, and his ERA was a full run lower. His three-year averages show the same thing, with his post-All-Star break ERA at 2.98, vs 4.04 pre-All-Star break.

 

I remember that one of the justifications for bringing Maddux here at the end of his career was to pass on his pitching wisdom to Wood, Prior, Zambrano, and Clement. Given that Maddux's strength was always getting guys out with few pitches, and that the Cubs staff remains reliant on the strikeout, it looks like that hasn't happened.

[nilodnayr]

A point that hasn't been brought up is that I'd argue that the $4M tag is lowballing. Look at the glut of mediocre pitchers last year who all signed 3 yr 21M+ contracts. And plus with Guzman out until at least July, Pinto and Mitre sucking and Brownlie being moved to the pen, its not like we have a whole lot of great options.

[Guest]

The Cubs would have plenty of valid reasons for benching him. His performance has been below average. He is old and unless we get in the race in a hurry, our club will want to look at younger players.

 

If we are out of the race, Maddux must sit in the best interest of the Cubs.

I can see few valid reasons for benching the Cubs' third-most productive pitcher to date.

[Guest]

So can we call Maddux classless for leaving the Cubs to take more money with the Braves, and then leaving the Braves to take more money with the Cubs once again? After all, a lot of people are willing to call the Cubs classless if they find a way to avoid paying Maddux $9M per year. Clearly Maddux has treated the game like a business, hasn't he?

That seems like a bit of revisionist history to me. If I recall correctly, the departure of Maddux back in '92 wasn't motivated by money so much as a desire to win and the fact that Cubs management kind of jerked him around in negotiations. (Also, didn't a New York team offer a bigger contract than the one he eventually accepted with Atlanta?) As for his recent exile from the Braves, that was almost entirely the decision of Braves management. Maddux wanted to stay in Atlanta, but they simply couldn't afford to retain him. They made the desicion to not offer arbitration, not Greg.

 

The fact of the matter is that Maddux has not pitched poorly for the Cubs. He's certainly not at the HOF-levels he maintained throughout the '90s and the Cubs are probably overpaying for the production they're getting out of him but not ridiculously so. Trying to find a way to weasel out of a contract negotiated in good faith is a spineless, detestable dodge of responsibility.

 

Also don't forget it's exactly that type of thing that led to the White Sox throwing the 1919 series. Comiskey was a notorious cheapskate who avoided paying performance bonuses any way he could, driving many players to look for more creative ways of generating income.

[TruffleShuffle]

A point that hasn't been brought up is that I'd argue that the $4M tag is lowballing. Look at the glut of mediocre pitchers last year who all signed 3 yr 21M+ contracts.

 

I'm not saying we should be one of those teams signing the Jon Liebers and Eric Miltons of the world to $7-8M per year contracts. But guys like Woody Williams and Jeff Suppan are good signings for the production they give you. There are always average pitchers available for $3-4M per year, and there are always going to be overrated pitchers like Milton or Lieber who will get a lot more than they should.

[TruffleShuffle]

So can we call Maddux classless for leaving the Cubs to take more money with the Braves, and then leaving the Braves to take more money with the Cubs once again? After all, a lot of people are willing to call the Cubs classless if they find a way to avoid paying Maddux $9M per year. Clearly Maddux has treated the game like a business, hasn't he?

That seems like a bit of revisionist history to me. If I recall correctly, the departure of Maddux back in '92 wasn't motivated by money so much as a desire to win and the fact that Cubs management kind of jerked him around in negotiations. (Also, didn't a New York team offer a bigger contract than the one he eventually accepted with Atlanta?) As for his recent exile from the Braves, that was almost entirely the decision of Braves management. Maddux wanted to stay in Atlanta, but they simply couldn't afford to retain him. They made the desicion to not offer arbitration, not Greg.

 

The fact of the matter is that Maddux has not pitched poorly for the Cubs. He's certainly not at the HOF-levels he maintained throughout the '90s and the Cubs are probably overpaying for the production they're getting out of him but not ridiculously so. Trying to find a way to weasel out of a contract negotiated in good faith is a spineless, detestable dodge of responsibility.

 

Also don't forget it's exactly that type of thing that led to the White Sox throwing the 1919 series. Comiskey was a notorious cheapskate who avoided paying performance bonuses any way he could, driving many players to look for more creative ways of generating income.

 

I believe the Cubs offered Maddux $2M less than the Braves did over 5 years.

 

As for throwing the 1919 Series, you're talking about apples and oranges. Before the last 30 years, a lot of non-stars had to work in the offseason to supplement their baseball income. Greg Maddux after this year will have made over $120 million playing baseball. I really don't think he's going to start fixing games to stay out of bankruptcy.

 

Like I said, I'd have to think hard about doing this if the Cubs are still contending in late August. But if they're not, letting Maddux's option vest is doing nothing for this year except possibly winning a meaningless extra game or two this year, while at the same time sabotaging the team's chances of winning next year due to poor allocation of financial resources.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

The Cubs would have plenty of valid reasons for benching him. His performance has been below average. He is old and unless we get in the race in a hurry, our club will want to look at younger players.

 

If we are out of the race, Maddux must sit in the best interest of the Cubs.

 

His performance might be '"below average" and yet, he's the third best starting pitcher on the team.

 

And Truffle, you act like Larry Himes had no part to play in Maddux's departure in 1992.

[Guest]

As for throwing the 1919 Series, you're talking about apples and oranges. Before the last 30 years, a lot of non-stars had to work in the offseason to supplement their baseball income. Greg Maddux after this year will have made over $120 million playing baseball. I really don't think he's going to start fixing games to stay out of bankruptcy.

I agree. I was just pointing out that players react badly when management blatantly tries to screw them out of a paycheck. 85 years ago this took the form of throwing the World Series to get a little extra cash. Today it would probably involve lawsuits and FA boycotts of the Cubs.

 

Less damaging to the game, certainly, but far more damaging to the team we love. (Particularly compared to slightly overpaying for an aging HOF in the last year of his contract.)

[10man]

I think Maddux has enough of the gentleman in him to call it quits after this season if it's clear that he can't get hitters out anymore.

[VicCub]

Am I the only guy on here who literally had nightmares in '92 about a washed up Maddux returning here to collect a paycheck from our 'classy' orgainization?

 

He screwed any hope we had back then, and now he's screwing any hope we have now. Least favorite baseball player EVER.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Am I the only guy on here who literally had nightmares in '92 about a washed up Maddux returning here to collect a paycheck from our 'classy' orgainization?

 

He screwed any hope we had back then, and now he's screwing any hope we have now. Least favorite baseball player EVER.

 

How is he the only one to blame for what happened in 1992?

[snoodmonger]

He screwed any hope we had back then, and now he's screwing any hope we have now. Least favorite baseball player EVER.

 

I'm truly baffled by this statement.

[erik316wttn]

Am I the only guy on here who literally had nightmares in '92 about a washed up Maddux returning here to collect a paycheck from our 'classy' orgainization?

 

He screwed any hope we had back then, and now he's screwing any hope we have now. Least favorite baseball player EVER.

 

How is he the only one to blame for what happened in 1992?

 

Personally, I would have left too after how the Cubs orginization acted. They acted like they were better than him, and they'd be damned if they let a lowly player make contract demands. I'd have left and never looked back, too. I don't blame him for leaving.

[VicCub]

He could've stayed and instead he left. Fine I said back then. But just don't expect to come crawling back here at the end of your career. Oops.

 

I had no hope for '93 after the best young pitcher in baseball bailed on us, anybody else? Who did we replace him with Jose Guzman? As far as today goes, overpaying the guy this year and the next may not eliminate all hope, but it ain't helpin'.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

He could've stayed and instead he left. Fine I said back then. But just don't expect to come crawling back here at the end of your career. Oops.

 

I had no hope for '93 after the best young pitcher in baseball bailed on us, anybody else? Who did we replace him with Jose Guzman? As far as today goes, overpaying the guy this year and the next may not eliminate all hope, but it ain't helpin'.

 

Why do you keep acting like Larry Himes and the Cubs played no role in Maddux leaving?

[VicCub]

Whatever Larry did wrong (pull the offer late?) it doesn't change the fact that if Greg had wanted to be here, he would've stayed. He knew what he meant to us fans.

[Guest]

Whatever Larry did wrong (pull the offer late?) it doesn't change the fact that if Greg had wanted to be here, he would've stayed. He knew what he meant to us fans.

Do you know how much getting a World Series ring meant to him? It was pretty apparent (even then) that that wasn't going to happen for the Cubs any time in the early/mid '90s. Though I hated to see him go (he was and remains one of my favorite pitchers) I completely undserstand his motivations for leaving.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Whatever Larry did wrong (pull the offer late?) it doesn't change the fact that if Greg had wanted to be here, he would've stayed. He knew what he meant to us fans.

 

Let's see...Greg got offers from the Braves and the Yankees. Maddux then contacted Himes and offered to be a Cub for the same amount he had turned down in the summer, which was less than the Yankees had offered. Himes didn't, but I've heard before that the Trib could have been faulted for not allowing Himes.

 

I don't see why Greg has to stay for the fans - especially when the Cubs acted like they didn't want him.

[TruffleShuffle]

Whatever Larry did wrong (pull the offer late?) it doesn't change the fact that if Greg had wanted to be here, he would've stayed. He knew what he meant to us fans.

Do you know how much getting a World Series ring meant to him? It was pretty apparent (even then) that that wasn't going to happen for the Cubs any time in the early/mid '90s. Though I hated to see him go (he was and remains one of my favorite pitchers) I completely undserstand his motivations for leaving.

 

So the he can leave the Cubs to have a better chance of winning a ring, but the Cubs can't allow him to leave to improve the team's chances of winning a World Series next year?

 

Personally I just want the Cubs to not stink next year. If they go into next year with the same bunch of low-OBP bums on offense and the same mediocre losers in the bullpen, I'll know before the season that it will be a hopeless season.

[Soul]

I thought Maddux said he realizes his skills are eroding quickly.

 

To me that says: "I'm retiring after this season."

 

I could be wrong though.

[Sec 511 Die-hard]

Great thread, guys. I admittedly have mixed emotions on the whole deal. I certainly don't think that the Cubs owe Greg Maddux anything more than he is derserving. If the Cubs are out of it by Mid-August (And it certainly looks like they might be) - I have no problems with the team bringing up youngsters to get some major league experience.

 

Also, if Maddux continues to pitch mediocre-at-best, and the team is still in the thick of it - you have to let him pitch and hope that he still has some outs left in his arm in 2006.

 

The good news is that Greg Maddux isn't one who wants to pitch for a losing team, so regardless of his contract status - I don't feel that he will be here next year if:

1. He feels that he has nothing left; or

2. He feels that the Cubs are not going to contend in 2006.

 

I'm sure that this will be a big issue as the season progresses.

[treebird]

I think it's a lot more likely that Hendry would decide the Cubs were out of it and try to trade Maddux rather than have Dusty bench him.

 

I also think it's highly unlikely that Hendry would try to trade Maddux.

[Laura]

Maybe he could trade him to a team that scores some runs and has a bullpen.