Angels (Soriano) vs Cubs (Wesneski): 7/7/24, 1:20pm

[LBiittner]

He supposedly doesn't track flyballs well. At 2nd base, he was greatly abusing errors in the minors? Besides, we have an excellent young cheap 2nd baseman without neat face war paint.

[mfcubs22]

3 minutes ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

IMO, the Cubs have done a disservice by trying to move him around all over in 2023 like he's Kris Bryant or something.  And then forcing him to learn an even new position in 2024 with like what, 5 weeks of notice before the season started?

Some players are better off just playing 1 position.  Funnily enough, Ian Happ, great example.  An OK 2nd baseman but a great defensive left fielder once they left him alone there. 

For Morel, IMO, it's 2nd base or LF where I could see him being a good defensive player

I actually agree with this. He was a league average second basemen in 390 innings over 2022-2023 (+1 DRS actually). If they are keeping Nico and Morel, I would consider having them swap positions until Shaw/Triantos are ready. I no longer think arm is a necessity at 3B after seeing 2023 Nick Madrigal. 

[Transmogrified Tiger]

6 minutes ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

IMO, the Cubs have done a disservice by trying to move him around all over in 2023 like he's Kris Bryant or something.  And then forcing him to learn an even new position in 2024 with like what, 5 weeks of notice before the season started?

Some players are better off just playing 1 position.  Funnily enough, Ian Happ, great example.  An OK 2nd baseman but a great defensive left fielder once they left him alone there. 

For Morel, IMO, it's 2nd base or LF where I could see him being a good defensive player

Morel played more third base than any other position in the minor leagues, the Cubs clearly did not spring 3B on him late in the offseason, and he has a half season of innings in an MLB OF that were also horrific defensively.  The most likely outcome is that he is not good enough to be a decent MLB defender at any position.  That doesn't make him useless, but he does need to turn things around with the bat fairly quickly because a below average bat with that defense is a borderline MLBer instead of a guy straddling the line between 1st division starter(Ian Happ) and 2nd division starter.

[PeanutPunch33]

3 minutes ago, mfcubs22 said:

I actually agree with this. He was a league average second basemen in 390 innings over 2022-2023 (+1 DRS actually). If they are keeping Nico and Morel, I would consider having them swap positions until Shaw/Triantos are ready. I no longer think arm is a necessity at 3B after seeing 2023 Nick Madrigal. 

What I really wish for, if we could do a do-over, is them keeping Nico at SS, Morel at 2b, and then not signing Swanson and pocketing nearly 200$ million to go get Pete Alonso this off-season.  And Busch is the guy that kind of moves around between 2nd base, 1st, maybe even a spot OF day 

[PeanutPunch33]

2 minutes ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

Morel played more third base than any other position in the minor leagues, the Cubs clearly did not spring 3B on him late in the offseason, and he has a half season of innings in an MLB OF that were also horrific defensively.  The most likely outcome is that he is not good enough to be a decent MLB defender at any position.  That doesn't make him useless, but he does need to turn things around with the bat fairly quickly because a below average bat with that defense is a borderline MLBer instead of a guy straddling the line between 1st division starter(Ian Happ) and 2nd division starter.

It's just so hard for me to believe that he can't grow/become a good OFer when I watch guys like Schwarber, Alvarez, Castellanos lumber around out there.  Even Ian Happ, nobody knew he'd become a Gold Glover until they just let him play out there everyday.. 

[Bertz]

I know Trueblood tried to be like "he hits too many balls to CF case closed" but I've yet to see an actual good argument that Morel's not a 120ish wRC+ bat simply getting BABIPed to hell right now.

The defense is a problem but the added contact this year has made the bat pretty hard to argue against IMO.

[UMFan83]

1 hour ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

That's because he was a DH mostly last year while Happ gets play LF, arguably the easiest position in baseball to play.  And Morel is clearly not a 3rd baseman, yet they are choosing to ruin his career by forcing him there.  Let Morel play 150+ games in LF and then compare their WARs.  Just my opinion.  Ian Happ is who he is.  Morel actually has real potential. 

Edit and I don't hate Ian at all, just very sensitive to Morel criticism.  I seem to be the only one here that remembers what he did for this team last season

FWIW, at least according to Baseball Reference Happ has had a higher oWAR (so removing defense from the equation) in both 2023 and 2024.  Using oWAR/162 games played for comparison purposes...

2023:

Happ - 3.0, Morel - 2.4

2024:

Happ - 3.3, Morel - 1.1

Edited July 7, 2024 by UMFan83

[mfcubs22]

1 hour ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

Morel played more third base than any other position in the minor leagues, the Cubs clearly did not spring 3B on him late in the offseason, and he has a half season of innings in an MLB OF that were also horrific defensively.  The most likely outcome is that he is not good enough to be a decent MLB defender at any position.  That doesn't make him useless, but he does need to turn things around with the bat fairly quickly because a below average bat with that defense is a borderline MLBer instead of a guy straddling the line between 1st division starter(Ian Happ) and 2nd division starter.

Do you not think he could be a decent MLB 2nd baseman? In 2022/2023, he put up +1 DRS/-1 OAA in 390 MLB innings at 2B. He also had 98 MiLB innings at 2nd base (all in 2021) with 0 errors (30 assists/23 POs). I think it’s reasonable to expect he could be league average there. If I was Jed, I’d use the next 2.5 months to give him a shot there and see if Nico can handle 3B. 

Edited July 7, 2024 by mfcubs22

[Rcal10]

1 hour ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

That's because he was a DH mostly last year while Happ gets play LF, arguably the easiest position in baseball to play.  And Morel is clearly not a 3rd baseman, yet they are choosing to ruin his career by forcing him there.  Let Morel play 150+ games in LF and then compare their WARs.  Just my opinion.  Ian Happ is who he is.  Morel actually has real potential. 

Edit and I don't hate Ian at all, just very sensitive to Morel criticism.  I seem to be the only one here that remembers what he did for this team last season

I don’t agree with people criticizing Morel either. I think he has hit in terrible luck this year and agree he had a nice offensive year last year. But you don’t have to criticize Happ to praise Morel. I was a strong advocate of giving him a chance at 3rd this past off season. I still haven’t closed the book on him. But time is running short for his glove. And like I said, that isn’t my point anyway. I am speaking strictly of Happ where you have suggested repeatedly that he isn’t very good. And that is just not true. 

[Transmogrified Tiger]

16 minutes ago, mfcubs22 said:

Do you not think he could be a decent MLB 2nd baseman? In 2022/2023, he put up +1 DRS/-1 OAA in 390 MLB innings at 2B. He also had 98 MiLB innings at 2nd base (all in 2021) with 0 errors (30 assists/23 POs). I think it’s reasonable to expect he could be league average there. If I was Jed, I’d use the next 2.5 months to give him a shot there and see if Nico can handle 3B. 

Morel playing at a -4 full-season rate as a big league 2B (in limited time) does not fill me with optimism that his problems are solved by moving to the right side of the infield.  At a minimum, it's not enough upshot for me to want to relocate the 4 win 2B we have under contract for the next several seasons just to find out.

[squally1313]

2 hours ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

You know who's a bum?  Ian Happ

 

2 hours ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

I don't hate Ian at all

 

[mfcubs22]

18 minutes ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

Morel playing at a -4 full-season rate as a big league 2B (in limited time) does not fill me with optimism that his problems are solved by moving to the right side of the infield.  At a minimum, it's not enough upshot for me to want to relocate the 4 win 2B we have under contract for the next several seasons just to find out.

Or a +4 DRS rate. It’s also possible he improves on that with reps, considering he only had those 53 chances in the minors at 2nd. Nico is good with the glove (though 0 DRS this year) and adds value on the bases, but I’d rather use the next few months to explore my options rather than lock into a 99 wRC+ hitter at 2nd and the worst defensive third baseman in the league. Even putting Morel aside, what if Shaw can’t play 3rd? Wouldn’t it be nice to know you have the option of playing Nico at 3B and Shaw/Triantos at 2B? 

[Transmogrified Tiger]

3 minutes ago, mfcubs22 said:

Or a +4 DRS rate. It’s also possible he improves on that with reps, considering he only had those 53 chances in the minors at 2nd. Nico is good with the glove (though 0 DRS this year) and adds value on the bases, but I’d rather use the next few months to explore my options rather than lock into a 99 wRC+ hitter at 2nd and the worst defensive third baseman in the league. Even putting Morel aside, what if Shaw can’t play 3rd? Wouldn’t it be nice to know you have the option of playing Nico at 3B and Shaw/Triantos at 2B? 

I don't think we need to 'find out' if Nico can handle third, he's a well above average SS and 2B, there's no reason to think that wouldn't translate if the team thought that was the best way forward.  But for Morel, who has been poor defensively at every position he's played a non-trivial amount of innings, who struggles with catching the ball and throwing it accurately, I don't see reason to think 2B as a solution is more than hopeful thinking.

[squally1313]

The amount of bending over backwards people do for Chris Morel, who has played in 308 Major League Baseball games and accumulated less than 3 wins total in his career, is truly outrageous. Maybe by the time he gets to 1500 PAs he can finally do what Happ, Swanson, Hoerner do annually. 

[chibears55]

I like Morel but I think he'll be traded, if not at deadline then in offseason. 

They have 2 positional needs to upgrade as of now for 2025 and that catcher and 3B

[Tryptamine]

Am I really the only one one who was completely repulsed at the idea of giving Alonso 200M?

[mfcubs22]

10 minutes ago, Tryptamine said:

Am I really the only one one who was completely repulsed at the idea of giving Alonso 200M?

No. 

[mfcubs22]

47 minutes ago, squally1313 said:

The amount of bending over backwards people do for Chris Morel, who has played in 308 Major League Baseball games and accumulated less than 3 wins total in his career, is truly outrageous. Maybe by the time he gets to 1500 PAs he can finally do what Happ, Swanson, Hoerner do annually. 

There are stats beyond WAR that can help to project production/value moving forward. That 86th percentile xwOBA during a sub .200 BA season has me mesmerized. The results have been about as terrible as possible, and he still has the same wRC+ as Nico this year. Morel had a 119 wRC+ last year, and objectively made improvements in his approach. The potential is there, and it’s difficult to give up on him at the lowest point of his trade value. 

[squally1313]

11 minutes ago, mfcubs22 said:

There are stats beyond WAR that can help to project production/value moving forward. That 86th percentile xwOBA during a sub .200 BA season has me mesmerized. The results have been about as terrible as possible, and he still has the same wRC+ as Nico this year. Morel had a 119 wRC+ last year, and objectively made improvements in his approach. The potential is there, and it’s difficult to give up on him at the lowest point of his trade value. 

I think he’s a good, not elite hitter. Agreed he’s been very unlucky. But he simply can not play defense. He’s tried, it doesn’t work. 

[731.4life]

3 hours ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

IMO, the Cubs have done a disservice by trying to move him around all over in 2023 like he's Kris Bryant or something.  And then forcing him to learn an even new position in 2024 with like what, 5 weeks of notice before the season started?

Some players are better off just playing 1 position.  Funnily enough, Ian Happ, great example.  An OK 2nd baseman but a great defensive left fielder once they left him alone there. 

For Morel, IMO, it's 2nd base or LF where I could see him being a good defensive player

Which isn't going to happen. What's going to kill Morel is lack of opportunities. 

Morel was the 21st best prospect in the Cubs system in 2022. He's done well as a Cub given his situation. But the Cubs are not going to move a bad defender to 2nd base and try to put Hoerner at third. Just like they're not going to put him in left field and move Happ to a different position. I understand your idea of maximizing a player's potential, but Happ and Hoerner are 1st round picks, they're going to get as many opportunities to perform to their ability at those positions, especially if they won the gold glove award.

If/when Matt Shaw comes to Chicago as a Cub, he'll likely be the next third baseman. That's just how it is. Cubs aren't going to put a first round pick on the bench behind a guy with a sub .200 batting average and plays bad defense.

Those questions are what Jed is going to have to answer over the deadline/offseason. 

[JHBulls]

Very cool that Shota is now an all star in his first year stateside. 

[Transmogrified Tiger]

27 minutes ago, 731.4life said:

Which isn't going to happen. What's going to kill Morel is lack of opportunities. 

Morel was the 21st best prospect in the Cubs system in 2022. He's done well as a Cub given his situation. But the Cubs are not going to move a bad defender to 2nd base and try to put Hoerner at third. Just like they're not going to put him in left field and move Happ to a different position. I understand your idea of maximizing a player's potential, but Happ and Hoerner are 1st round picks, they're going to get as many opportunities to perform to their ability at those positions, especially if they won the gold glove award.

If/when Matt Shaw comes to Chicago as a Cub, he'll likely be the next third baseman. That's just how it is. Cubs aren't going to put a first round pick on the bench behind a guy with a sub .200 batting average and plays bad defense.

Those questions are what Jed is going to have to answer over the deadline/offseason. 

It is absurd to think that Morel, a player promoted from AA and who continues to play regularly at 3B despite having an unlucky season at the plate and being the worst defensive 3B in MLB by a country mile, is not gonna have the chance to show his stuff because other guys have the label of 1st round pick.  

As much as we could've hoped this was not the case, we are getting a very clear lens into Christopher Morel the defender, and he has not shown any optimism that he can do so at the MLB level.  He was unplayably error prone on the infield as a minor leaguer, and right now he has been so bad(33rd of 33) at the MLB level that the difference between him and 2nd worst is the gap between 2nd worst and a top half 3B defender based on 2024 performances.  

I know it lacks the obvious visual explanation like a big oaf being incapable of making defensive plays or covering ground, but it is the same type of story.  You ever see a terrific athlete that hasn't played much baseball try to play defense?  Morel is essentially the MLB version of that, and at age 25 we can't lean on repetition or age-related progression to save him from that fate.

[Derwood]

1 hour ago, chibears55 said:

I like Morel but I think he'll be traded, if not at deadline then in offseason. 

They have 2 positional needs to upgrade as of now for 2025 and that catcher and 3B

 

Coincidentally, those were the the 2 positional needs going into last offseason as well

[Stratos]

4 hours ago, PeanutPunch33 said:

go to baseball reference and check out his stats vs those 2 teams vs the rest of the league.. pretty straightforward, and pretty glaring 

even in the midst of the best stretch of his career, he won't come close to the .500+ slugging that Morel did last year or the 26 home runs., or the .820 ops. mic drop 

 

And then pitchers adjusted lol

[731.4life]

14 minutes ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

It is absurd to think that Morel, a player promoted from AA and who continues to play regularly at 3B despite having an unlucky season at the plate and being the worst defensive 3B in MLB by a country mile, is not gonna have the chance to show his stuff because other guys have the label of 1st round pick.  

As much as we could've hoped this was not the case, we are getting a very clear lens into Christopher Morel the defender, and he has not shown any optimism that he can do so at the MLB level.  He was unplayably error prone on the infield as a minor leaguer, and right now he has been so bad(33rd of 33) at the MLB level that the difference between him and 2nd worst is the gap between 2nd worst and a top half 3B defender based on 2024 performances.  

I know it lacks the obvious visual explanation like a big oaf being incapable of making defensive plays or covering ground, but it is the same type of story.  You ever see a terrific athlete that hasn't played much baseball try to play defense?  Morel is essentially the MLB version of that, and at age 25 we can't lean on repetition or age-related progression to save him from that fate.

Morel had around a .196 batting average prior to the White Sox series at Wrigley. He's now batting .199.

Multi hit games since the start of June, and I'll based it on the regular starters:

Suzuki: 10 games including a 3 hit game

Bellinger: 11 games including a 3 hit game

Hoerner: 6 games including a 3 hit game

Happ: 8 games including a 4 hit game and a 3 hit game

Swanson: 5 games including a 3 hit game

Busch: 6 games

Morel: 3 games.

Analytic guys can talk about unlucky this and unlucky that about Morel. When you played a total of 89 games so far during the season, I think it's safe to say there will be a day here and there that you can get 3 hits in a game. Morel hasn't recorded a 3 hit game this season this year. The last time he recorded a 3 hit game was July 27 of last year against the Cardinals. 

The baseball gods can be cruel at times, but they're not that cruel. Morel is no longer "unlucky" to me. And with bad defense and not a good hitter, the Cubs should potentially move on from him at the right time. I don't think it's that hard. He has had his opportunity to play, just don't think the bat is good enough to keep up with the bad defense. Moving a gold glove defender to accommodate Morel is not the smartest thing to do.