Cubs hire Counsell

[Jason Ross]

9 minutes ago, abuck1220 said:

huh? the 2021 team was the defending division champion. the opening day lineup included happ, contreras, rizzo, bryant and baez. there were 100% "supposed to win" that season.

I do not, under any circumstances, believe the Cubs had any intentions of winning baseball games in 2021. They traded their best SP for most of a HS-aged lineup, non-tendered Kyle Schwarber, and replaced them with players like the husk of Arrieta and Joc Pederson on a reclamation deal. They didn't extend anyone and begun the sell off before July 1st. The Cubs got exactly what they wanted in 2021; they got to sell off multiple big named trade pieces (Rizzo/Bryat/Baez/Kimbrel) at the deadline. 

David Ross didn't really have much to work with. It was at best a team who could survive enough to replace those holes at the deadline. But it was a team that put forth very little to supplement the good ones and those holes sunk the battleship. I think that was a feature, not a bug.

Edited November 6, 2023 by 1908_Cubs

[champaignchris]

2 minutes ago, abuck1220 said:

huh? the 2021 team was the defending division champion. the opening day lineup included happ, contreras, rizzo, bryant and baez. there were 100% "supposed to win" that season.

Not just that, but they were 43-33 and tied for first place on June 24th. 
 

They then went on a 2-13 stretch, falling to 8.5 out and started selling off. 

[Jason Ross]

8 minutes ago, Soul said:

The September collapse this year was epic.  That's on Ross.  Managers definitely get canned for that.

Eh. I mean, I think Ross probably had a bit to do with that. But he was also managing a team that didn't have Stroman (or at best had a husk of Stroman), a pretty run down and exhausted BP, Candelario was hurt...

The Cubs were an imperfect team and many of those holes caught up to them at a pretty inopportune time. Ross can have a bit of that blame. Hoyer can have a bit of that blame. Some players didn't perform, as well, and they can also have some of that blame. I don't think the Cubs blamed Ross overly, or he'd have been out prior. 

This feels like less about David Ross and far more about Craig Counsell. But that's probably a good thing, I'd rather the team be looking to upgrade over "fine" than trying to shoulder blame to deflect.

Edited November 6, 2023 by 1908_Cubs

[JBears79]

37 minutes ago, Bobson Dugnutt said:

I believe his exact position is that “bunts lick butts.”

He also told Prince Fielder he would punch him in the face of he ever bunted

[Omar]

[abuck1220]

6 minutes ago, 1908_Cubs said:

I do not, under any circumstances, believe the Cubs had any intentions of winning baseball games in 2021. They traded their best SP for most of a HS-aged lineup, non-tendered Kyle Schwarber, and replaced them with players like the husk of Arrieta and Joc Pederson on a reclamation deal. They didn't extend anyone and begun the sell off before July 1st. The Cubs got exactly what they wanted in 2021; they got to sell off multiple big named trade pieces (Rizzo/Bryat/Baez/Kimbrel) at the deadline. 

 

they were in first place in late June before they completely face planted. which came the season after they face planted in the playoffs. which happened a couple seasons before they mega super duper face planted this season.

there is absolutely nothing good to say about how david ross managed teams ended their seasons. cubs were trying to win in 3 of his 4 seasons and they won zero playoff games. that shouldn't be acceptable for the smallest of small market teams, and it sure as horsefeathers shouldn't be acceptable for the cubs.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

14 minutes ago, Cubfanintheknow said:

I'm curious... how much did Jed Hoyer share about the Cubs' off-season plans? I can't imagine he'd share a whole lot... but maybe enough for Counsell to sign on? I mean, aside from the 40 million other reasons why he'd sign.

AFAIK Hoyer has only released the statement that talks about dismissing Ross and briefly mentioning they'll be introducing Counsell next week, so no other real indicators.

[Jason Ross]

5 minutes ago, abuck1220 said:

they were in first place in late June before they completely face planted. which came the season after they face planted in the playoffs. which happened a couple seasons before they mega super duper face planted this season.

there is absolutely nothing good to say about how david ross managed teams ended their seasons. cubs were trying to win in 3 of his 4 seasons and they won zero playoff games. that shouldn't be acceptable for the smallest of small market teams, and it sure as horsefeathers shouldn't be acceptable for the cubs.

I am genuinely shocked anyone could look at what the Cubs did between 2020 and 2021 and believe that was an earnest attempt at winning baseball games. You are free to your views, but I do not share them in the least. 

I think there are legitimate things we can look at during David Ross' tenure as manager that is questionable. The Cubs W-L record in 2021 is not one, not for me.

Edited November 6, 2023 by 1908_Cubs

[Banedon]

47 minutes ago, Y2J said:

What makes his face a step up in punchable face-ness?

What are you looking for here?  A breakdown of what makes a face punchable?  It just is.  

[JHBulls]

Holy horsefeathers? What has just happened? That is some managerial signing. 

[Bertz]

32 minutes ago, Cubfanintheknow said:

I'm curious... how much did Jed Hoyer share about the Cubs' off-season plans? I can't imagine he'd share a whole lot... but maybe enough for Counsell to sign on? I mean, aside from the 40 million other reasons why he'd sign.

Dansby Swanson got details/assurances last winter about what other stuff was coming down the pipe in the next 18-24 months, Craig Counsell surely got updated versions of those as well.  Probably in much greater detail given his job scope.

[gmoney70]

Wow...

[Brian707]

Well holy horsefeathers I'm ecstatic.  Maybe they intended to keep Ross but Counsell was too hard to pass up. Theo and Jed in 2014 met Maddon in a Florida trailer park, maybe this time Jed met Counsell in a Kenosha trailer park 

[abuck1220]

22 minutes ago, 1908_Cubs said:

I am genuinely shocked anyone could look at what the Cubs did between 2020 and 2021 and believe that was an earnest attempt at winning baseball games. You are free to your views, but I do not share them in the least. 

I think there are legitimate things we can look at during David Ross' tenure as manager that is questionable. The Cubs W-L record in 2021 is not one, not for me.

i'm not saying it was a GOOD attempt to win baseball games.

[Backtobanks]

1 hour ago, chibears55 said:

Wow, did not expect that and to hire Counsell.

I just hope this also means some very good players are coming too

I just hope they didn't hire him because he's great at handling a low budget team.

[Soul]

23 minutes ago, 1908_Cubs said:

I am genuinely shocked anyone could look at what the Cubs did between 2020 and 2021 and believe that was an earnest attempt at winning baseball games. You are free to your views, but I do not share them in the least. 

I think there are legitimate things we can look at during David Ross' tenure as manager that is questionable. The Cubs W-L record in 2021 is not one, not for me.

I think you are making some good points and it's probably a little of both.  There's got to be some disappointment with having given Ross some players, they turn it on in the 2nd half, then tank out into super-disappointment-land at the end.  Not all his fault but some of it was, and then here comes Counsell and the Cubs say let's move on.

Put it all together and I'm a happy Chicago sports fan.  I got up this morning bemoaning another long cold Winter.  Heck of a game changer.

[David]

sup guys this is pretty horsefeathers awesome

[Rex Buckingham]

I love what this (hopefully) signals about our off-season plans. If you're just running it back, you don't sign a manager to a $40M contract. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Rex Buckingham

[Y2J]

1 hour ago, Banedon said:

What are you looking for here?  A breakdown of what makes a face punchable?  It just is.  

Didn't know if there was some seedy history that I didn't know about. 

[Jason Ross]

39 minutes ago, Soul said:

I think you are making some good points and it's probably a little of both.  There's got to be some disappointment with having given Ross some players, they turn it on in the 2nd half, then tank out into super-disappointment-land at the end.  Not all his fault but some of it was, and then here comes Counsell and the Cubs say let's move on.

Put it all together and I'm a happy Chicago sports fan.  I got up this morning bemoaning another long cold Winter.  Heck of a game changer.

Yeah, I'm not unhappy in the least. I think Ross was probably a fine manager. I think you could have changed David Ross and put in like, 80% of MLB managers and the results would have been about the same over his tenure. Maybe a win here, a loss there, etc, etc. I think Counsell, regardless of W-L record, is important because it once again, like with Joe Maddon, suggests a real shift in philosophy within the team. Last year's offseason was about "raising the floor". It was hoping guys like Trey Mancini or Eric Hosmer could be around league average and the Cubs would be better by just being alright. David Ross was alright. But the Cubs today said they wanted, at least from based on the contract they gave him, the best and being the best hasn't been a priority of this team for a while. They were content with being okay, maybe slightly better than okay if things worked out. 

I hope the idea that being the best is something they can take to heart for a while again.

[jersey cubs fan]

45 minutes ago, abuck1220 said:

i'm not saying it was a GOOD attempt to win baseball games.

The cubs tanked. Ross was nothing special, but they didn’t try to win that season. Residual productivity and weak competition kept them in the race, but they were cutting corners and bailing on the present. 

[Cuzi]

I suppose this is what happens when you constantly call for bunts and your boss doesn't like the philosophy of playing for 1 run, not playing call ups that were called up because the player on the MLB roster wasnt producing but they were a veteran and need to be shown respect even in the face of catastrophic failure, and going to the same bullpen arms that have blown 3 straight leads.

Unlucky. Enjoy forced retirement, Ross.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Cuzi

[itisallpartoftheplan]

Man, what a shock to wake up to!!

Thanks for the World Series Ross, but definitely glad he’s out!

[Transmogrified Tiger]

A potentially useful thought exercise: where do you think the Cubs ranked in terms of sac bunts this year?  How many fewer do you think the Brewers had?

 

 

Spoiler

The Cubs were 12th in Sacrifice Bunts, with 15.  That was 8 more than the Brewers, who ranked 25th.

 

[Jason Ross]

27 minutes ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

A potentially useful thought exercise: where do you think the Cubs ranked in terms of sac bunts this year?  How many fewer do you think the Brewers had?

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Cubs were 12th in Sacrifice Bunts, with 15.  That was 8 more than the Brewers, who ranked 25th.

 

I assumed the Brewers would be very low. There was an anecdote about Counsell shared on twitter/X that was him threatening to punch Prince Fielder in the face if he ever bunted back from their playing days. If you hate bunting that much (and fair play) that you're willing to even consider punching that Man Mountain in the face when you look like Counsell? Then you hate bunting.