Chicago Bears Offseason Thread (the tank must payoff)

[WrigleyField 22]

21 minutes ago, UMFan83 said:

LMAO the Bears are so bad at this.  No one believes you are thinking about building in Naperville and everyone knows you are crying for public money for a stadium/district that is going to drastically increase your profits/franchise value.

 

Yea, Naperville lacks any ready made site for something on that scale. 

I don't know if they're bad at it, per se. They just don't have a lot of leverage within the state and no one would ever buy threats to leave the state. 

Whatever leverage talking with Naperville/Soldier Field can buy them is probably worth the menial effort, but, yea, no one is gonna get fooled. 

[Outshined_One]

4 hours ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

I don't know if they're bad at it, per se. They just don't have a lot of leverage within the state and no one would ever buy threats to leave the state. 

I think this is performative for Cook County and Arlington Heights, rather than the State.  The problem is, they closed on the Arlington property and have already started demolition on it.  It's not like they're going to spend millions to buy a parcel in Naperville and then turn the Arlington Heights location into a practice facility and office complex.  That's abjectly dumb.

I keep saying, if the Bears want the State and Cook County to bend over backwards, they should work on a deal for the Rolling Meadows courthouse facilities at Euclid and Wilke and offer up a new courthouse and government building across the street, where Ditka's used to be.  It gives the county and Illinois a win with an influx of cash and modern facilities, it opens the doors for untold amounts of graft, the Bears can use it as leverage for tax breaks and favorable treatment, and it gives the Bears more options for development.

[raw]

On 6/1/2023 at 4:39 PM, jersey cubs fan said:

It’s so depressing talking about spending floors for the bears and Blackhawks. We should be talking about ceilings and ways to finagle the cap instead of collectively bargained mandated spending levels not yet reached 

I don't follow the Blackhawks enough anymore to comment on that. But in the Bears' case, I'd argue it's probably "good" that we're talking about spending floors instead of trying to finagle the cap at this point. The Bears have had cap constraints in the (very recent) past, but have never had a QB. We don't even know if we have the QB now, so finagling the cap without a QB taking a huge chunk of the cap is the way to stay in NFL purgatory. It's what Pace did when he thought he had Trubisky and tried to call all in on the last couple years of his rookie deal. But obviously, he jumped the gun and ended up with some very expensive pieces to a puzzle missing the biggest piece in the center. 

If we are still talking about cap floors in 2025, then that's a huge problem. A) because it likely means the Bears are looking for another QB or B) it means Poles is still not doing enough to help Fields if he is the QB. 

[WrigleyField 22]

Spending big around a cheap QB is exactly what you should do. Just cuz Trubisky was a flop, didn't make that a bad plan. 

Frankly the Bears were never in real cap trouble or cap hell. Covid crunch was a major complication (that every team had to manage to some extent). And you can obviously pick apartment individual decisions on players, but there was not a overspending problem in the Pace regime. Flat out, no qualifiers. 

Zero reason to look like this for a third straight year.

 

[WrigleyField 22]

(also I haven't checked Jack's numbers, though he's very good, so I'm sure they're good). But that leaves Bears $24M short right now on cash floor while every other team is above it already.  There's no competetive advantage to spending that little.  Even with rollover of cap space, it's way past dimished returns and it can actually be difficult to "catch up" that fast with some yet to be determined big spending splurge. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by WrigleyField 22

[raw]

Also, since it's now June and free agency may start to pick up again before mandatory mini-camps start, here are some signings I'd like to see the Bears go out and make.

DE- Yannick Ngakoue- IDC if he can't play the run. That's not really all that important to me. You have a young, promising secondary, you have 2 very highly graded pass defending LBs, give me a guy that's going to put consistent pressure on QBs on true passing downs. Leonard Floyd, Jadeveon Clowney, Frank Clark, and others are also out there, but Ngakoue honestly is the best at getting after the QB, which should be of the highest priority. 

OT- George Fant- he's always been a solid swing OT. He's primarily a RT, but he'd be a good guy to have for Wright to learn from. If Wright isn't ready or gets injured, he'd be a nice guy to have. He's essentially Riley Reiff from last year. If Jones goes down at LT, you can move Fant there in a pinch, or go with Borom who has played there. Gives you Fant, Borom, Carter, Patrick on the bench....for now

C- Chase Roulier- Roulier has dealt with injuries recently, but was a top 5 zone blocking C as recently as 2021. I personally think he's a better fit and player than Whitehair. At worse, you bring him in to compete with Patrick for a backup job. If he happens to beat Whitehair out for a starting job, even better. These OL moves lets you end the Leatherwood experiment (unless he beats out Borom) and nobody else on the depth chart feels worthwhile. But gives the OL 7 guys who are starter-ish quality, Borom/Leatherwood as guys that can potentially play 4 positions, and Carter as a developmental backup. Right now, if there's an injury on the OL, one of those last 3 guys are in the starting lineup.

CB- Cameron Dantzler- just cut from Washington, still only 24 years old. Not a world beater, but you're talking about insurance for Tyrique Stevenson, who is competing with the likes of Vildor, Jaylon Jones, and Greg Stroman. Again, a bunch of guys you really don't want to HAVE to play. 

S- Just bring back DHC. Houston-Carson knows the system, he has the versatility. He's a good special teamer. Even if you want to get younger on special teams, the S depth chart is a UDFA and 2 of the lastest 7th round picks you can get. Jackson is already hurt, get someone in here that won't kill you if he has to start.

The Bears have the money. They have several positions (pretty much all but RB, WR and LB) where if a guy gets injured, you're looking at a clearly below average player coming in (in addition to below average guys starting on the DL, and potentially on the OL). Go out and get some veteran depth. Even if you want to keep your young UDFA guys, you'd only be cutting guys like Greg Stroman, Deiter Eiselen, Adrian Colbert, and Terrell Lewis who are all basically UDFA quality guys who are 26.

[raw]

It's not a bad strategy to spend around a cheap QB. It's spending around a bad QB that is the bad idea. If you aren't 100% sure you have a Burrow, Hurts or Herbert, then it's probably not good to spend on everything else to put you up against the cap. Because then you have to find a new QB, likely from the bottom 1/3 of the draft and have to go through developing another young QB while those guys you spent on get older and closer to the overpaid parts of their contracts.

It's what you saw with the 2021 Bears. They were semi trying to develop Fields, but also were paying a ton of money to guys like Mack, Robinson, Quinn, Jackson, Whitehair, Jimmy Graham (lol), etc. 

The result of spending around a bad, cheap QB almost always results in a ton of dead cap on older players. Jets have been here a few times. Bears are here. Washington has been. That being said, there is a difference between not spending around a bad/unproven QB than what Poles has done. HE 100% should/could have done much more by now.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I do think that Poles inherited a mostly bad situation and that taking a step back to build up a little long-term capital was reasonable.  But he took it way too far and fielded an absolutely negligent offense around a developing Fields.  And now he's had two off-seasons to build whatever he wanted. He owns whatever happens this season, good or bad. none of this "wait till 2025" stuff.

If Fields is the guy, this team wins football games in 2023.  If Fields is not the guy, then you start trying to find the guy for 2024 and Poles is on the clock immediately.

Or more generally, the minmaxing of the success cycle has gone way too far.  There are times in all the major American pro sports where it's reasonable to say "OK, this year we're gonna be a little more development-focused.  We're gonna do our best to win games, but we might give a little preference to younger guys breaking in over veterans and probably not be looking to trade long-term assets for immediate help."

It's just been taken to a counter-productive extreme.  Fan spaces have become full of smarmy turds crowing about how the Plan was always for the Window to open in 2027 after The Core is assembled and anything that looks like bad news before then is actually good news because it was always The Plan and people just have to be patient and good in this life and they'll be rewarded in the next one, or whatever Puritan [expletive] morality play they're importing into sports.
 

[WrigleyField 22]

28 minutes ago, raw said:

It's not a bad strategy to spend around a cheap QB. It's spending around a bad QB that is the bad idea. If you aren't 100% sure you have a Burrow, Hurts or Herbert, then it's probably not good to spend on everything else to put you up against the cap. Because then you have to find a new QB, likely from the bottom 1/3 of the draft and have to go through developing another young QB while those guys you spent on get older and closer to the overpaid parts of their contracts.

It's what you saw with the 2021 Bears. They were semi trying to develop Fields, but also were paying a ton of money to guys like Mack, Robinson, Quinn, Jackson, Whitehair, Jimmy Graham (lol), etc. 

The result of spending around a bad, cheap QB almost always results in a ton of dead cap on older players. Jets have been here a few times. Bears are here. Washington has been. That being said, there is a difference between not spending around a bad/unproven QB than what Poles has done. HE 100% should/could have done much more by now.

Cleveland spent around a bad QB in Baker and then just rolled all that aggressiveness into building around Watson (well see now with a full season of Watson how that works out). 

But the absolutely worst case is you are rolling right into another cheap QB and that's your opportunity to reset 

[raw]

I have argued the same thing. I understand what Poles was/is doing, but he didn't have to be so extreme with the lack of talent on the team last year. My argument was he was playing it safe. Fields wasn't his draft pick, and if he tied himself to Fields by clearly trying to win right away on paper, he would go if Fields went. But honestly, this was just as risky of a move to his future as GM. If Fields didn't have those eye popping rushing numbers and the 30 point mid-season, then Poles would get just as much blame for ruining Fields behind that terrible offensive roster. Sure, maybe he would have gotten a chance to take his QB this year, but that immediately puts a ton of pressure on him as well. 

It just blows my mind that Fields was as good as he was last year, while the team was the worst in the league. It's really hard to get competent QB play and be the worst team in the league. 

[WrigleyField 22]

15 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

 

It's just been taken to a counter-productive extreme.  Fan spaces have become full of smarmy turds crowing about how the Plan was always for the Window to open in 2027 after The Core is assembled and anything that looks like bad news before then is actually good news because it was always The Plan and people just have to be patient and good in this life and they'll be rewarded in the next one, or whatever Puritan [expletive] morality play they're importing into sports.
 

There was a good article about Eagles and Roseman earlier this offseason. He talked about how many people, even in the org just automatically assumed they needed this big blow up after his sabbatical where Kelley had complete control for that one year. And again after 2020. And both times, it was basically "lol no" 

 

Anyways my next burner Twitter account should be "Windows are a myth". Everyone is awful at most of it, so the best bet is to be trying as often as possible IMO. 

[raw]

6 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

Cleveland spent around a bad QB in Baker and then just rolled all that aggressiveness into building around Watson (well see now with a full season of Watson how that works out). 

But the absolutely worst case is you are rolling right into another cheap QB and that's your opportunity to reset 

Cleveland tore everything down though to get to that point, though. And they mostly built that team through the draft. A lot of their big money spent is on guys they drafted and drafted from years of having top 10 picks.

Garrett, Chubb, Bitonio, Ward, Njoku. 

The top guys they were paying when Baker was there are now all gone. Landry, Tretter, Hooper, Sheldon Richardson (other than Conklin who was just re-signed). 

[CubinNY]

4 hours ago, raw said:

I have argued the same thing. I understand what Poles was/is doing, but he didn't have to be so extreme with the lack of talent on the team last year. My argument was he was playing it safe.

I think this is exactly correct. Fields is not his guy and he still doesn't know if he is the guy. It's still on Poles because he choose not make an attempt for a season +.  

[Magnetic Curses]

Man, people do not like it when you question anything about Poles and Flussy.

 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I will say this.  I definitely think Fields has been overrated to this point.  He wasn't just failed by the offense, he also failed the offense.  It was an ouroboros of suck, he dragged down the WRs and OL just as much as they dragged him down.  The most important skill an NFL QB has, the one that ultimately decides success or failure, is the ability to make a snapshot read of the field and quickly deliver the ball to optimal spot.  I do not think Fields has yet demonstrated that he can do that consistently.

Sorry, I was leading up to a "but" but the doom boner got away from me.

BUT, the upside is every bit as real as the downside and if I have to bet one way or the other, I think he has a breakout season.  He hasn't proven he *can't* do the snapshot reads either, his work ethic and intelligence are excellent, and his non-passing tools are such an absolute cheat code that it gives him a lot of margin for error.

[Magnetic Curses]

14 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

I will say this.  I definitely think Fields has been overrated to this point.  He wasn't just failed by the offense, he also failed the offense.  It was an ouroboros of suck, he dragged down the WRs and OL just as much as they dragged him down.  The most important skill an NFL QB has, the one that ultimately decides success or failure, is the ability to make a snapshot read of the field and quickly deliver the ball to optimal spot.  I do not think Fields has yet demonstrated that he can do that consistently.

Sorry, I was leading up to a "but" but the doom boner got away from me.

BUT, the upside is every bit as real as the downside and if I have to bet one way or the other, I think he has a breakout season.  He hasn't proven he *can't* do the snapshot reads either, his work ethic and intelligence are excellent, and his non-passing tools are such an absolute cheat code that it gives him a lot of margin for error.

I don't think his ascension is 100% guaranteed. I've also seen some clips from various games where he makes quick reads, finds the open man, and he looks like an excellent QB. 

 

The problem is that he's never been a high volume thrower, he's never thrown screen passes and he hasn't shown that he's good at it at all. The positive is that he's actually incredibly accurate on the longer throws, which is amazing.

 

Personally, my opinion is that he changes the way the game is played. His ability to run and escape should keep defenses on their heels and make it very easy for him, if he can relax in the pocket.

[jersey cubs fan]

Leonard Floyd is off the table as a potential signing. He’s going to the Bills

[bukie]

At this point I'm curious if the Bears are just going to forgo rushing the QB entirely, becoming the first defense to drop into an 11 player zone.

[Magnetic Curses]

19 minutes ago, bukie said:

At this point I'm curious if the Bears are just going to forgo rushing the QB entirely, becoming the first defense to drop into an 11 player zone.

well, they went without pass protection last year because apparently "everything cannot be fixed.

[CubinNY]

1 hour ago, bukie said:

At this point I'm curious if the Bears are just going to forgo rushing the QB entirely, becoming the first defense to drop into an 11 player zone.

A good secondary can make a bad pass rush better, that seems to be the hope, anyway. 

[gflore34]

17 hours ago, CubinNY said:

A good secondary can make a bad pass rush better, that seems to be the hope, anyway. 

There was an earlier posting regarding the Chiefs improvement on defense being correlated with a good secondary and linebackers.  Appears Poles is a very big believer in the idea of the defense starting from the back to front rather than front to back.  if they improve on stopping the run we may see the benefits of strong secondary helping the pass rush.

[Magnetic Curses]

30 minutes ago, gflore34 said:

There was an earlier posting regarding the Chiefs improvement on defense being correlated with a good secondary and linebackers.  Appears Poles is a very big believer in the idea of the defense starting from the back to front rather than front to back.  if they improve on stopping the run we may see the benefits of strong secondary helping the pass rush.

If this was Fangio's system, I'd agree. He liked to have lock down man corners so he could dial up exotic blitzes.

 

But this is Tampa-2, it starts up front.

[gflore34]

9 minutes ago, Magnetic Curses said:

If this was Fangio's system, I'd agree. He liked to have lock down man corners so he could dial up exotic blitzes.

 

But this is Tampa-2, it starts up front.

Does Poles know this?

[Magnetic Curses]

11 minutes ago, gflore34 said:

Does Poles know this?

Ah yes. He'd know better than I, of course.

[gflore34]

11 minutes ago, Magnetic Curses said:

Ah yes. He'd know better than I, of course.

Meant given Poles actions it appears getting to the QB is not a priority hence, the question about his knowledge of the defensive scheme.