Chicago Bears Offseason Thread (the tank must payoff)

[raw]

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Fields was the fourth QB selected. He fell out of the top 10. Fields simply being a second-tier QB prospect is an infinitely simpler explanation than a complicated conspiracy to devalue him or NFL teams abandoning years of scouting and evaluation to listen to an ESPN analyst. And you ignored the biggest ding on him in the draft: His slow processing, which has continued to be a problem in the NFL.

 

Yes, volume matters for a QB. You can't just throw 15 times a game in the NFL. The fact that he frequently pulled the ball down, the fact that that coaching staff didn't feel comfortable calling more pass plays, is partly on him.

 

And sacks taken absolutely correlate strongly with QB style. It's not an independent variable in either film study or statistical analysis. He takes a lot of sacks because he holds onto the ball too long and doesn't pull the trigger (slow processor again) and has a preference for trying to hold out for big plays over taking simple throws.

 

You're really hanging onto where he got drafted when Aaron Rodgers fell to 24 and Tom Brady went 199th? And you ignored HS rankings and pre-draft rankings that I pointed out. Fields was always 1B until he wasn't 1B on draft day. He wasn't 2nd tier to Trey Lance and Zach horsefeathering Wilson.

 

The coaching staff not throwing is definitely not on him. You watched the same horsefeathering games I did and saw him getting hit or pressured at the last step of his drop. The Bears receivers were also statically the worst in the league at getting open (I'll find the tweet if I can).

 

Again, I'm not saying he was the perfect prospect or is a sure fire star QB in the league, and many have said this many times, but you're clearly being contrarian for contrarian sake. You're like a flat earther disagreeing just because it's an unpopular side to take, and that's your brand.

 

My take is extremely popular outside of Chicago Bears and Ohio State fandoms

 

Congrats! But you aren't spouting this nonsense around non-Bears and Ohio State fans right now are you?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It does sound a lot like Hurts.

 

Who just lost the super bowl to *checks notes* the superior passing QB.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

 

You're really hanging onto where he got drafted when Aaron Rodgers fell to 24 and Tom Brady went 199th? And you ignored HS rankings and pre-draft rankings that I pointed out. Fields was always 1B until he wasn't 1B on draft day. He wasn't 2nd tier to Trey Lance and Zach horsefeathering Wilson.

 

The coaching staff not throwing is definitely not on him. You watched the same horsefeathering games I did and saw him getting hit or pressured at the last step of his drop. The Bears receivers were also statically the worst in the league at getting open (I'll find the tweet if I can).

 

Again, I'm not saying he was the perfect prospect or is a sure fire star QB in the league, and many have said this many times, but you're clearly being contrarian for contrarian sake. You're like a flat earther disagreeing just because it's an unpopular side to take, and that's your brand.

 

My take is extremely popular outside of Chicago Bears and Ohio State fandoms

 

Congrats! But you aren't spouting this nonsense around non-Bears and Ohio State fans right now are you?

 

I mean I could link you my reddit account but I feel like that would open up a whole bunch of new issues

[raw]

It does sound a lot like Hurts.

 

Who just lost the super bowl to *checks notes* the superior passing QB.

 

Lol. That's what you're going with? Hurts doubled up Mahomes' passing yards in that game. You're intentionally being stupid and I'm done with this conversation.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It does sound a lot like Hurts.

 

Who just lost the super bowl to *checks notes* the superior passing QB.

 

Lol. That's what you're going with? Hurts doubled up Mahomes' passing yards in that game. You're intentionally being stupid and I'm done with this conversation.

 

He lost a fumble while running the ball (fields fumbles a lot) and failed on a 3rd down conversion in the fourth quarter. That's all it takes to lose playoff games these days.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It's pretty unfair to say I'm just being contrary when I was explicitly laying out the scenario I wanted and and how I wanted to avoid this exact scenario before we even drafted fields

[UMFan83]

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Fields was the fourth QB selected. He fell out of the top 10. Fields simply being a second-tier QB prospect is an infinitely simpler explanation than a complicated conspiracy to devalue him or NFL teams abandoning years of scouting and evaluation to listen to an ESPN analyst. And you ignored the biggest ding on him in the draft: His slow processing, which has continued to be a problem in the NFL.

 

Yes, volume matters for a QB. You can't just throw 15 times a game in the NFL. The fact that he frequently pulled the ball down, the fact that that coaching staff didn't feel comfortable calling more pass plays, is partly on him.

 

And sacks taken absolutely correlate strongly with QB style. It's not an independent variable in either film study or statistical analysis. He takes a lot of sacks because he holds onto the ball too long and doesn't pull the trigger (slow processor again) and has a preference for trying to hold out for big plays over taking simple throws.

 

You're really hanging onto where he got drafted when Aaron Rodgers fell to 24 and Tom Brady went 199th? And you ignored HS rankings and pre-draft rankings that I pointed out. Fields was always 1B until he wasn't 1B on draft day. He wasn't 2nd tier to Trey Lance and Zach horsefeathering Wilson.

 

The coaching staff not throwing is definitely not on him. You watched the same horsefeathering games I did and saw him getting hit or pressured at the last step of his drop. The Bears receivers were also statically the worst in the league at getting open (I'll find the tweet if I can).

 

Again, I'm not saying he was the perfect prospect or is a sure fire star QB in the league, and many have said this many times, but you're clearly being contrarian for contrarian sake. You're like a flat earther disagreeing just because it's an unpopular side to take, and that's your brand.

 

My take is extremely popular outside of Chicago Bears and Ohio State fandoms

 

You mean the 2 fan bases who have watched Fields play the closest have a favorable opinion of him?

[WrigleyField 22]

It does sound a lot like Hurts.

 

Who just lost the super bowl to *checks notes* the superior passing QB.

 

Lol. That's what you're going with? Hurts doubled up Mahomes' passing yards in that game. You're intentionally being stupid and I'm done with this conversation.

 

He lost a fumble while running the ball (fields fumbles a lot) and failed on a 3rd down conversion in the fourth quarter. That's all it takes to lose playoff games these days.

ROFL.

[Cubswin11]

I’m an agnostic NFL fan and really don’t have positive or negative feelings towards Fields, but these takes are absurd. You trade down and take one more swing with him with cap and draft capital, worst case you’re still in the Williams/Maye picture next year. Better/medium case Fields is actually decent once you give him some help on the line and skill position groups. This isn’t that hard. None of the QBs in this class are worth pulling the rip cord on Fields at 1-1.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

 

You're really hanging onto where he got drafted when Aaron Rodgers fell to 24 and Tom Brady went 199th? And you ignored HS rankings and pre-draft rankings that I pointed out. Fields was always 1B until he wasn't 1B on draft day. He wasn't 2nd tier to Trey Lance and Zach horsefeathering Wilson.

 

The coaching staff not throwing is definitely not on him. You watched the same horsefeathering games I did and saw him getting hit or pressured at the last step of his drop. The Bears receivers were also statically the worst in the league at getting open (I'll find the tweet if I can).

 

Again, I'm not saying he was the perfect prospect or is a sure fire star QB in the league, and many have said this many times, but you're clearly being contrarian for contrarian sake. You're like a flat earther disagreeing just because it's an unpopular side to take, and that's your brand.

 

My take is extremely popular outside of Chicago Bears and Ohio State fandoms

 

You mean the 2 fan bases who have watched Fields play the closest have a favorable opinion of him?

 

I mean the two with the biggest emotional attachment to him.

[UMFan83]

 

My take is extremely popular outside of Chicago Bears and Ohio State fandoms

 

You mean the 2 fan bases who have watched Fields play the closest have a favorable opinion of him?

 

I mean the two with the biggest emotional attachment to him.

 

And why do they have an emotional attachment to him? I can assure you Cade McNown didn’t have many Bears fans fighting for him. Is there some homerism involved? Sure. But I’d take the opinions of a Bears fan who’s seen all 28 or so Fields starts over a random fan of another team on Reddit who sees Fields highlights on ESPN and a box score and says “lol he’s a RB”.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

 

You mean the 2 fan bases who have watched Fields play the closest have a favorable opinion of him?

 

I mean the two with the biggest emotional attachment to him.

 

And why do they have an emotional attachment to him? I can assure you Cade McNown didn’t have many Bears fans fighting for him. Is there some homerism involved? Sure. But I’d take the opinions of a Bears fan who’s seen all 28 or so Fields starts over a random fan of another team on Reddit who sees Fields highlights on ESPN and a box score and says “lol he’s a RB”.

 

He's a charismatic and likable guy with a fun-to-watch, interesting skill set.

[David]

It amazes me that people still engage Kyle after almost 20 years of this horsefeathers, sometimes myself included

[WrigleyField 22]

It amazes me that people still engage Kyle after almost 20 years of this horsefeathers, sometimes myself included

[BigbadB]

I don't know where you are getting this stat that Fields had more time in the pocket than any other QB in the NFL this past year, but I watched all of his games and it can't be accurate. He was constantly running for his life. He ran for his life so often that it seemed like the Bears decided to make it part of their offense. How good would Mahomes be with Borom, Whitehair and Mustipher playing every down with a rookie 5th rounder at LT? And take away Kelce and Hill while you're at it.

 

He had arguably the worst WR corps in the league. He had arguably the worst pass protection in the league. I compare Fields' season to that one playoff game when Mahomes was down to only 2 starting OLinemen. What would he have done if it was like that for him all season, like it was with Fields. You start losing confidence in your ability to make plays, because you never have time to plant your feet and throw. Burrow was getting killed by his OLine. They gave him protection and weapons and now he's fine, but he also suffered a major injury beforehand. Lawrence is looking great now, but his first season was rough. Jacksonville spent more money this past offseason than anyone.

 

Expecting a franchise QB to look like a franchise QB with zero pro bowl caliber players surrounding him is asking for way more than what would be within reason. You give him his chance with a better team and if he isn't the guy THEN, then you move on. Not before. I look at the points Fields was putting on the scoreboard all year without playmakers and I say give that guy some real talent and let's see what he can do.

 

This isn't a situation where it's your only chance to make a change at QB. If he doesn't work out, they will be in a good position to get a top tier QB if they trade down and pick up valuable 2024 draft assets.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I don't know where you are getting this stat that Fields had more time in the pocket than any other QB in the NFL this past year, but I watched all of his games and it can't be accurate. He was constantly running for his life. He ran for his life so often that it seemed like the Bears decided to make it part of their offense. How good would Mahomes be with Borom, Whitehair and Mustipher playing every down with a rookie 5th rounder at LT? And take away Kelce and Hill while you're at it.

 

He had arguably the worst WR corps in the league. He had arguably the worst pass protection in the league. I compare Fields' season to that one playoff game when Mahomes was down to only 2 starting OLinemen. What would he have done if it was like that for him all season, like it was with Fields. You start losing confidence in your ability to make plays, because you never have time to plant your feet and throw. Burrow was getting killed by his OLine. They gave him protection and weapons and now he's fine, but he also suffered a major injury beforehand. Lawrence is looking great now, but his first season was rough. Jacksonville spent more money this past offseason than anyone.

 

Expecting a franchise QB to look like a franchise QB with zero pro bowl caliber players surrounding him is asking for way more than what would be within reason. You give him his chance with a better team and if he isn't the guy THEN, then you move on. Not before. I look at the points Fields was putting on the scoreboard all year without playmakers and I say give that guy some real talent and let's see what he can do.

 

This isn't a situation where it's your only chance to make a change at QB. If he doesn't work out, they will be in a good position to get a top tier QB if they trade down and pick up valuable 2024 draft assets.

 

I disagree with the idea that we owe fields or anyone a fair shot. If you like a QB in this draft more than you like fields, you pull the trigger, regardless of whether or not fields got a fair chance. If you like fields more, you don't.

 

This doesn't have to be a knock on fields. He fell outside the top 10 and was the fourth QB drafted for reasons and those reasons weren't "some guy at ESPN said he didn't work hard.".

 

It's perfectly possible that fields is a good QB prospect who hasn't gotten a fair chance yet on the bears but the bears just like a QB in this draft more, and if that's true, then taking the QB you like more is the right call

Edited February 20, 2023 by Hairyducked Idiot

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It amazes me that people still engage Kyle after almost 20 years of this horsefeathers, sometimes myself included

 

I just don't like bad arguments. Even when they're in support of a point i ultimately agree with. After 20 years and more, I accept that this is a trait that I don't share with many people.

 

Ultimately, I would keep fields and trade down. But so many of the arguments in favor of it are *so bad*. And they're from smart people who would never make the same type of argument in different circumstances. They're working backwards from "I want to keep fields, so any argument I can come up with that points towards that must be a good argument."

 

NFL teams don't adjust their draft boards based on unsourced reports from Dan Orlovsky

 

Hometown fans don't more accurately rate their players than neutral observers.

 

Fields doesn't exist in some quantum superposition of both being clearly better than the QBs in this draft and having significantly less trade value than the no. 1 pick that would be used on one of those QBs.

[SpongeWorthy]

the people who soberly analyzed fields flaws in the draft evaluation process are the same people that drafted wilson and lance who are apocalyptic mega busts so far (no one thinks wilson will ever be good and lance is kevin white until proven otherwise)

 

not sure what going to that talking point is supposed to prove

[Hairyducked Idiot]

the people who soberly analyzed fields flaws in the draft evaluation process are the same people that drafted wilson and lance who are apocalyptic mega busts so far (no one thinks wilson will ever be good and lance is kevin white until proven otherwise)

 

not sure what going to that talking point is supposed to prove

 

And here's the disconnect. I called the Orlovsky argument bad, and you're looking for "what it's supposed to prove" when I say that.

 

There's no deeper meaning. There's no hidden agenda. It wasn't supposed to prove anything other than the bad argument was bad.

 

"Fields might still be really good despite falling to no. 11 because NFL teams often misevaluate QBs in the draft" is a perfectly fine argument and I agree with it

[minnesotacubsfan]

holy neurosis

[Brian707]

[mul21]

the people who soberly analyzed fields flaws in the draft evaluation process are the same people that drafted wilson and lance who are apocalyptic mega busts so far (no one thinks wilson will ever be good and lance is kevin white until proven otherwise)

 

not sure what going to that talking point is supposed to prove

 

And here's the disconnect. I called the Orlovsky argument bad, and you're looking for "what it's supposed to prove" when I say that.

 

There's no deeper meaning. There's no hidden agenda. It wasn't supposed to prove anything other than the bad argument was bad.

 

"Fields might still be really good despite falling to no. 11 because NFL teams often misevaluate QBs in the draft" is a perfectly fine argument and I agree with it

 

My biggest problem with your he dropped to 11th or whatever is that the current MVP of the league was the 10th pick in the draft and was the 3rd QB taken that year so that's as equally a nebulous and unscientific argument as you're criticizing other people for making.

 

My argument for Fields is that he's shown potential and he has 2 years of development/improvement/knowledge under his belt that you'd be throwing away. I don't think I've seen any indication that any of the guys available this year are considered to be can't miss and/or better prospects than Fields was. I'm no scout but I'll believe the guys who are.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

the people who soberly analyzed fields flaws in the draft evaluation process are the same people that drafted wilson and lance who are apocalyptic mega busts so far (no one thinks wilson will ever be good and lance is kevin white until proven otherwise)

 

not sure what going to that talking point is supposed to prove

 

And here's the disconnect. I called the Orlovsky argument bad, and you're looking for "what it's supposed to prove" when I say that.

 

There's no deeper meaning. There's no hidden agenda. It wasn't supposed to prove anything other than the bad argument was bad.

 

"Fields might still be really good despite falling to no. 11 because NFL teams often misevaluate QBs in the draft" is a perfectly fine argument and I agree with it

 

My biggest problem with your he dropped to 11th or whatever is that the current MVP of the league was the 10th pick in the draft and was the 3rd QB taken that year so that's as equally a nebulous and unscientific argument as you're criticizing other people for making.

 

My argument for Fields is that he's shown potential and he has 2 years of development/improvement/knowledge under his belt that you'd be throwing away. I don't think I've seen any indication that any of the guys available this year are considered to be can't miss and/or better prospects than Fields was. I'm no scout but I'll believe the guys who are.

 

I'm not saying fields is bad because he dropped to 11th. I'm disputing the constant assertion that he was 1b or that he would be the clear top pick in this draft year if he were eligible. Some posters have been pushing that Fields was a Manning-level prospect since draft day and I'm still waiting two years later for his first 250/2 td passing game.

 

It's perfectly possible that fields is a hidden-ish gem like Mahomes, albeit that's probably a bit optimistic on ceiling.

 

You wouldn't be throwing it away tho. You'd be trading it for value.

 

I agree, I'm not a scout either. Scouting QBs is really hard. If the scouts say they like fields better than anyone in this draft, I'm totally fine with that. But it's definitely not crazy if they decide the other way.

[Rex Buckingham]

If Fields is an average passer, he's likely a top 10 overall QB. He hasn't yet been an average passer, but it would have taken prime Brady or Peyton to drag last year's Bears offense to league average. It's impossible to judge how good he is based on the last 2 years, but you can see the tools and his ability to turn just about any play into a 60+ yard TD is unparalleled at the position.

[Cubswin11]

If Fields is an average passer, he's likely a top 10 overall QB. He hasn't yet been an average passer, but it would have taken prime Brady or Peyton to drag last year's Bears offense to league average. It's impossible to judge how good he is based on the last 2 years, but you can see the tools and his ability to turn just about any play into a 60+ yard TD is unparalleled at the position.

Yeah if he can be an average passer he’s probably somewhere between Daniel Jones from this year and Josh Allen as a passer/playmaker.