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Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

cl smooth

By cl smooth,
in General Baseball Talk

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NonProfitCow ACL Cubs

NonProfitCow

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

 

"In the '80s and '90s, almost all of the stats that people trust, he was in the top five -- for 20 years.

 

0 times in top 5 in BA, 0 in HRs, 1 in RBI. What exactly are these stats you shingle infested carcass?

Quit it with that weak-a-- superficial bulls---. Trust the stats that Baseball Men™ trust.

 

Double Plays turned as RF. Top 5 in 82,83,85 and 86.

soccer10k Cooperstown

soccer10k

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

 

"In the '80s and '90s, almost all of the stats that people trust, he was in the top five -- for 20 years.

 

0 times in top 5 in BA, 0 in HRs, 1 in RBI. What exactly are these stats you shingle infested carcass?

 

Don't forget hits where Baines had one top 5 finish. Even if you go to top-10, you get 3 in BA, 2 in RBI, 1 in HR and 1 in H.

 

We should Tony some slack. I heard he did the interview in his car right after taking a nap while waiting for a stoplight to turn to green.

OleMissCub Cooperstown

OleMissCub

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

I posted this on another board when someone claimed that the HOF had already jumped the shark with Tim Raines and that Baines' induction really wasn't all that different...

 

Categories where they ranked in the Top 10 in a season and where they ranked within the Top 10 that season:

 

Raines

BA: (4 times) 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 8th

OBP: (7) 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th

SLG: (1) 9th

WAR: (5) 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th

Runs (8) 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th

RBI (0)

Hits (6) 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th

Doubles (3) 1st, 6th, 10th

Triples (9) too many to list

HR (0)

Steals (11) 1st four times

 

Baines

BA: (3) 6th, 8th, 10th

OBP (1) 7th

SLG (1) 1st

WAR: (0)

Runs (0)

RBI (2) 4th, 8th

Hits (1) 5th

Doubles (1) 6th

Triples (3) 2nd, 3rd, 8th

HR (1) 9th

Steals (0)

 

Led the league in a stat:

Raines - 9 times

Baines - 1 time

 

Was Top 10 in league in a stat:

Raines - 54 times

Baines - 13 times

champaignchris Draft Eligible

champaignchris

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
looking at his stats, Raines' knees seems another tragic victim of Olympic Stadium brutality along with guys like Vlad & Dawson

 

Yeah, he started missing a lot of games starting in about 1987. It’s pretty common for outfielders who get a major portion of their value from speed to have a major fall off in production after age 30 and you see that in his rate stats.

 

But maybe he could have had another half season or so of counting stats during his prime had he been playing for a team that didn’t use outdoor carpet over concrete as its playing surface. So maybe 100 more hits, 5 more HRs, 20 more steals, 2.5 more on his career WAR. Maybe another All Star appearance. Would that have gotten him to the Hall sooner? Don’t know. Wouldn’t have hurt.

 

Dude still had an .880 OPS in 115 games/486 PAs for the Sox in 1993.

chopsx9 First Round Pick

chopsx9

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
The only compelling argument for Baines is he’s #34 on all time RBI list. Other than that, I can’t see it.

 

I'd say you could argue that without the 2 work stoppages he would have had 3,000 hits and 400 Hrs (maybe) which at one point were pretty solid bell weathers. He wouldn't have made my list but it's unfortunate that a player who was always such a class act is now subjected to a constant barrage of criticism for a situation that is in no part his doing.

Gmoney08 Draft Eligible

Gmoney08

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

 

I never understand this.

 

...They’re objectively less valuable than your league average #3 starting pitcher.

 

This is my problem with putting them in the Hall. You can take any teams top 3 or 4 starters and you would have the same or better results than the best relievers. Anytime 100+ players are equal or better than you ... you're not a HOFer.

 

Meh I doubt many teams have a 3 starter that just converts to as dominant as guys like Edwin Diaz, Britton, Chapman, Andrew Miller, Jansen and Kimbrel have been the last few years. There is a couple 3 starters with especially nasty stuff that might be able to touch that dominance as a reliever but there isnt one on every team.

champaignchris Draft Eligible

champaignchris

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

 

...They’re objectively less valuable than your league average #3 starting pitcher.

 

This is my problem with putting them in the Hall. You can take any teams top 3 or 4 starters and you would have the same or better results than the best relievers. Anytime 100+ players are equal or better than you ... you're not a HOFer.

 

Meh I doubt many teams have a 3 starter that just converts to as dominant as guys like Edwin Diaz, Britton, Chapman, Andrew Miller, Jansen and Kimbrel have been the last few years. There is a couple 3 starters with especially nasty stuff that might be able to touch that dominance as a reliever but there isnt one on every team.

 

There have been a ton of #3 or #4-ish guys to switch to closer and have 5 or 6 years as dominating relievers. Wade Davis springs to mind. Jason Isringhausen is another. Andrew Miller from your post is another good example. Jansen or Chapman do what they’ve been doing for another 5 or so years and we can talk about the Hall of Fame.

Bull ACL Cubs

Bull

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I remember back in the day my Sox friends saying they’d take Baines over Sammy

Mine too. This is proof they were right.

champaignchris Draft Eligible

champaignchris

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

I've been trying to think of a stat that's better than saves or WAR in terms of how to measure the value of relief pitchers and figured out that Win Probability Added might do the trick since, among other things, it takes leverage into account.

 

Here's the top 10 relievers (made more appearances in relief than starting) in WPA all-time (rank among all pitchers in parens):

 

1. Rivera 56.59 (5) - Clemens, Grove, Maddux and Spahn are the only guys ahead of him!

2. Hoffman 34.15 (22)

3. Gossage 32.51 (29)

4. Eckersly 30.85 (31)

5. Wilhelm 30.84 (32)

6. Nathan 30.60 (34)

7. Wagner 30.07 (38)

8. Papelbon 28.31 (41)

9. F. Rodriguez 24.43 (56)

10. Kimbrell 24.33 (57)

 

L. Smith 21.33 (78th), Sutter 18.25 (102nd) and Fingers 16.19 (125th) are the other HOF relievers.

 

This tells me the following:

1. Mariano Rivera laps the field by pretty much any metric you want to use in measuring relievers.

2. My reservations about Hoffman are off-base. He belongs.

3. There aren't any big surprises on this list and probably aren't any old forgotten relievers who deserve re-consideration now that we understand the value of bullpens more.

OleMissCub Cooperstown

OleMissCub

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I've been trying to think of a stat that's better than saves or WAR in terms of how to measure the value of relief pitchers and figured out that Win Probability Added might do the trick since, among other things, it takes leverage into account.

 

Here's the top 10 relievers (made more appearances in relief than starting) in WPA all-time (rank among all pitchers in parens):

 

1. Rivera 56.59 (5) - Clemens, Grove, Maddux and Spahn are the only guys ahead of him!

2. Hoffman 34.15 (22)

3. Gossage 32.51 (29)

4. Eckersly 30.85 (31)

5. Wilhelm 30.84 (32)

6. Nathan 30.60 (34)

7. Wagner 30.07 (38)

8. Papelbon 28.31 (41)

9. F. Rodriguez 24.43 (56)

10. Kimbrell 24.33 (57)

 

L. Smith 21.33 (78th), Sutter 18.25 (102nd) and Fingers 16.19 (125th) are the other HOF relievers.

 

This tells me the following:

1. Mariano Rivera laps the field by pretty much any metric you want to use in measuring relievers.

2. My reservations about Hoffman are off-base. He belongs.

3. There aren't any big surprises on this list and probably aren't any old forgotten relievers who deserve re-consideration now that we understand the value of bullpens more.

 

If the difference between the second best closer ever (Hoffman) and Billy Wagner is only 4 WAR, then maybe Rivera is the only one who belongs.

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