Who is the Cubs #17 prospect? (run-off)

[CaliforniaRaisin]

This is a tie-breaking run-off vote between Eloy Jimenez and Neil Ramirez for the Cubs #17 prospect. Feel free to post your rationale below. The loser of the run-off vote will be the #18 prospect. We will have a concurrent poll for #19.

 

The results so far:

 

1. Javier Baez

2. Kris Bryant

3. Albert Almora

4. Jorge Soler

5. CJ Edwards

6. Arismendy Alcantara

7. Pierce Johnson

8. Daniel Vogelbach

9. Christian Villanueva

10. Jeimer Candelario

11. Mike Olt

12. Kyle Hendricks

13. Arodys Vizcaino

14. Paul Blackburn

15. Rob Zastryzny

16. Corey Black

[Guest]

Eloy is too young and unproven to be ranked this high. I'd like to see him in the rookie league before placing him in the top 20 of a really deep system.

[Bilbo161]

Eloy is too young and unproven to be ranked this high. I'd like to see him in the rookie league before placing him in the top 20 of a really deep system.

 

Agree with the logic, but I don't see Ramirez as much more than a bullpen piece with control problems and injury risk. I'm going for the upside gamble here.

[jersey cubs fan]

Eloy is too young and unproven to be ranked this high. I'd like to see him in the rookie league before placing him in the top 20 of a really deep system.

 

I think we're overplaying the strength of that depth if we're just going to say somebody like Jimenez can't crack the top 20. All of these guys are either unproven or what they have proven isn't all that impressive.

[wekim81]

Eloy is too young and unproven to be ranked this high. I'd like to see him in the rookie league before placing him in the top 20 of a really deep system.

 

I think we're overplaying the strength of that depth if we're just going to say somebody like Jimenez can't crack the top 20. All of these guys are either unproven or what they have proven isn't all that impressive.

Agree. While Ramirez is older/closer to the bigs, Jimenez has a lot more potential, which swings it his way for me.

[Guest]

There's a part of me that says we shouldn't bother even considering Jimenez. There's voting on potential, and there's voting on a 16 year old who's yet to see any meaningful game action anywhere, and whose calling card(huge power) is already called into question by some. Rankings aren't a weight that we need to give guys an extra bump up to make sure they can be appropriately ranked later, so I have no problem not even considering Jimenez in the Top 20 or even 25 on principle. He can jump up fast when he actually gets stateside and does something, signing bonus alone isn't enough for me.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Where did we put Frandy de la Rosa last year?

[rawaction]

Eloy is too young and unproven to be ranked this high. I'd like to see him in the rookie league before placing him in the top 20 of a really deep system.

 

I think we're overplaying the strength of that depth if we're just going to say somebody like Jimenez can't crack the top 20. All of these guys are either unproven or what they have proven isn't all that impressive.

 

Exactly. This system is more top-heavy than "deep", IMO. The top 10 has guys who all could conceivably be above average regulars or better, who have produced at high A or above. But the rest of the system is like everyone else's. Low upside guys close to the majors (Hendricks). Recent draft picks with talent that haven't put it together. Injured arms with talent. Raw guys without much experience.

[Tangled Up in Plaid]

I'm with Tim and TT. 16-year-olds who haven't even played in the DSL should be nowhere near a top 30, no matter their signing bonus.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm with Tim and TT. 16-year-olds who haven't even played in the DSL should be nowhere near a top 30, no matter their signing bonus.

 

If we're talking about "shoulds", nobody should be pretending they can accurately rank the 20th best prospect in a system. This is all silliness at this point.

[toonsterwu]

I really, really don't see the argument for Eloy ahead of Neil Ramirez. You are talking about a guy who hasn't played stateside yet and is being ranked solely on upside. I mean, it wasn't too long ago that Paniagua soaked up hopes and dreams and fit into a top 10 of our rankings for some. Furthermore, it's not like this is Eloy vs. a guy that's an fringe arm in A ball. Ramirez is an upper level arm who should be in AAA, and has a chance to stick as a starter, but looks like he should get at least plenty of chances to fit in a pen, and pen wise, has late inning potential. I really, really don't see the argument for Eloy EVEN if you assume Ramirez is "just" a pen arm. Even if he is just a "pen arm", the chances of Eloy making it up and being a useful MINOR leaguer in the upper levels, let along a major leaguer, is a gigantic risk and unknown.

 

But that's me.

[craig]

I really, really don't see the argument for Eloy ahead of Neil Ramirez. You are talking about a guy who hasn't played stateside yet and is being ranked solely on upside. I mean, it wasn't too long ago that Paniagua soaked up hopes and dreams and fit into a top 10 of our rankings for some. Furthermore, it's not like this is Eloy vs. a guy that's an fringe arm in A ball. Ramirez is an upper level arm who should be in AAA, and has a chance to stick as a starter, but looks like he should get at least plenty of chances to fit in a pen, and pen wise, has late inning potential. I really, really don't see the argument for Eloy EVEN if you assume Ramirez is "just" a pen arm. Even if he is just a "pen arm", the chances of Eloy making it up and being a useful MINOR leaguer in the upper levels, let along a major leaguer, is a gigantic risk and unknown.

 

But that's me.

 

I'm going for the potential Eloy has. I think the improbability of a talented prospect making it to the upper levels is overstated. Eloy's got a shot to be a monster. Of course it's not certain, but the talents are big enough that it's worth taking a shot that he'll figure out how to hit. If he can hit pro movement, the sky's the limit. Sure, it's just potential. But that's prospects for you. Soler has done very little yet; but he's top 6 or whatever. Contreras has done very little, but he's getting votes based on his potential to transform into a good catcher. Based on his tools; his present receiving performance is quite rough, and his present hitting has been very limited. But based on his tools, we vote for him because we know that talent and potential can be refined in future, and we're voting for future, not present. I don't see any real inconsistency on voting for distant talents like Eloy or Torres or Hannemann based on tools and the belief that talent can be refined in future.

 

Granted, I'm not real high on Ramirez; I think if he works out you might get an average pitcher. Control problems and HR-tendancy are not promising for becoming above-average. Nor are shoulder problems. So I don't see a lot of scenarios where he ends up as an above-average big-leaguer. Hope he does, though. The velocity and the K-stuff would seem to provide some talent and potential. Maybre that talent, too, can be refined and he can become an asset pitcher.

[davell]

I'm pretty simplistic in looking at situations like this: I wouldn't trade Jimenez one for one, for Ramirez. Because of the upside. Therefore, I'll rank him higher.

[craig]

Yup. Subjective, but that's how I do it too.