JFK Assassination

[OleMissCub]

I think he acted alone

[Boris]

Last option.

[UMFan83]

I honestly don't know enough about the investigation to make an informed choice. The stuff that I have read, for every piece of evidence that there was a second shooter, I've seen convincing evidence that refutes the second shooter theory. I have no idea about Oswald not doing the shooting.

[Sammy Sofa]

Bring your conspiracy theories to me so I may smite them.

[jersey cubs fan]

I honestly don't know enough about the investigation to make an informed choice. The stuff that I have read, for every piece of evidence that there was a second shooter, I've seen convincing evidence that refutes the second shooter theory. I have no idea about Oswald not doing the shooting.

What a cop-out. It isn't asking you to be a juror sentencing somebody to death. If you are an adult American you've probably heard enough about it to have an opinion.

[Cubswin11]

Bring your conspiracy theories to me so I may smite them.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/183/103/alens.jpg

[UMFan83]

I honestly don't know enough about the investigation to make an informed choice. The stuff that I have read, for every piece of evidence that there was a second shooter, I've seen convincing evidence that refutes the second shooter theory. I have no idea about Oswald not doing the shooting.

What a cop-out. It isn't asking you to be a juror sentencing somebody to death. If you are an adult American you've probably heard enough about it to have an opinion.

 

Well then I vote Oswald was the sole shooter because I don't really believe in pretty much any conspiracy theories.

[Cubswin11]

Simmons has a 2-part podcast up right now that includes the likes of Bill James and Chuck Klosterman discussing the topic, fwiw.

[treebird]

Simmons has a 2-part podcast up right now that includes the likes of Bill James and Chuck Klosterman discussing the topic, fwiw.

 

i listened to part one. klosterman was cool, but chris connelly was worthless, as always. does anyone like him? if so, why?

[Sammy Sofa]

Any of the people who think there was more than one shooter care to explain? It's one thing to think that there was a different shooter or that there was a conspiracy behind the shooter, but there is literally not a single bit of physical evidence of a second shooter (or more).

[Guest]

Any of the people who think there was more than one shooter care to explain? It's one thing to think that there was a different shooter or that there was a conspiracy behind the shooter, but there is literally not a single bit of physical evidence of a second shooter (or more).

 

i think that there was a conspiracy. Maybe not a "high-level government" conspiracy, but I don't think Oswald "acted alone."

Oswald's assassination at the hands of Jack Ruby just makes such little sense. I don't think any of them planned on anyone involved getting caught, but there were other shooters acting as fail safes if Oswald didn't hit his target.

 

Ruby, on the other hand, was tied to organized crime and others that lost a lot in Cuba. To many, it was a very personal thing, and the murder may not have occurred for any other reason besides revenge, think Max Cady-type revenge, for the Bay of Pigs.

[OleMissCub]

Listened the Simmons podcast. Bill James said he thought there was a 55 percent probability that the head shot came from a secret service agent in the following car??? What?

[SouthSideRyan]

Listened the Simmons podcast. Bill James said he thought there was a 55 percent probability that the head shot came from a secret service agent in the following car??? What?

 

Bill James is pretty much a kook at all non-baseball stuff

[OleMissCub]

Listened the Simmons podcast. Bill James said he thought there was a 55 percent probability that the head shot came from a secret service agent in the following car??? What?

 

Bill James is pretty much a kook at all non-baseball stuff

 

Ok because I was like "this is an incredibly bright person who I really admire believing in utter [expletive]." It did not compute.

[Sammy Sofa]

Any of the people who think there was more than one shooter care to explain? It's one thing to think that there was a different shooter or that there was a conspiracy behind the shooter, but there is literally not a single bit of physical evidence of a second shooter (or more).

 

i think that there was a conspiracy. Maybe not a "high-level government" conspiracy, but I don't think Oswald "acted alone."

Oswald's assassination at the hands of Jack Ruby just makes such little sense. I don't think any of them planned on anyone involved getting caught, but there were other shooters acting as fail safes if Oswald didn't hit his target.

 

Ruby, on the other hand, was tied to organized crime and others that lost a lot in Cuba. To many, it was a very personal thing, and the murder may not have occurred for any other reason besides revenge, think Max Cady-type revenge, for the Bay of Pigs.

 

If Ruby was actually tasked with killing Oswald, why was nobody sent to kill Ruby?

 

Basically his killing of Oswald doesn't make a lot of sense because it was an irrational act based almost completely on chance. Oswald was actually transferred later than announced; Ruby was still asleep when Oswald was originally scheduled to be moved. He finally heads downtown and literally minutes before he shoots Oswald he's posting a money transfer at a Western Union office. He actually let the guy behind in him line go first; if that customer had taken just 30 seconds longer to finish his business Ruby would have missed Oswald's transfer completely. He brought his favorite dog along and left her in the car; everyone who knew him said he adored that dog and would have never left her in a car if he knew he wasn't coming back. Most damning of all is that Oswald was further delayed when he asked for a sweater. Without this act, Ruby yet again misses Oswald. The only way that was staged was if Oswald himself was in on his own execution.

 

Nevermind that Ruby was in and out of police HQ throughout the weekend. He had multiple chances to kill Oswald during those times, yet if he's assigned to silence Oswald he waits to do it at a moment that requires a multitude of lucky breaks to succeed (the armored car couldn't fit down the driveway, the chief's car couldn't back right up to the door because of all the reporters, etc.). This is a very temperamental, emotional guy and he finally snapped (and his mob connections are vastly overstated; he was a hanger-on in Chicago and Dallas at best. It was basically inevitable that he would know made guys based on who he grew up with and because he ran strip clubs but he was never anyone really all that connected and basically would be the worst choice for mob hitman ever).

 

If there were other shooters they literally left no trace of their existence. Dealy Plaza as a whole was scoured after the assassination and nothing was found besides evidence pointing to Oswald as the shooter. That's where any idea of a "small" conspiracy falls apart because a massive one is required to not only completely remove any evidence of anyone else but to also manipulate everything so that it points only at Oswald. It's just not realistic that something with so many moving parts and so many people required would have worked so perfectly.

 

Hell, if anyone would be backing Oswald as the lone shooter I'd think it was you, sulley, since he killed him for Cuba and Castro. He's a true revolutionary!

[Sammy Sofa]

Listened the Simmons podcast. Bill James said he thought there was a 55 percent probability that the head shot came from a secret service agent in the following car??? What?

 

Bill James is pretty much a kook at all non-baseball stuff

 

Ok because I was like "this is an incredibly bright person who I really admire believing in utter [expletive]." It did not compute.

 

It's really bizarre how this theory has come back. It was posed in a book 20 years ago and the agent it accused sued the publisher and it basically went away. The only thing I can guess is that with the agent now dead they're trotting it out again with the anniversary since it's a theory that sticks out even among the most ridiculous conspiracies. [expletive], Bill Kurtis was hosting a special seriously debating it the other night.

[treebird]

Listened the Simmons podcast. Bill James said he thought there was a 55 percent probability that the head shot came from a secret service agent in the following car??? What?

 

Bill James is pretty much a kook at all non-baseball stuff

 

Ok because I was like "this is an incredibly bright person who I really admire believing in utter [expletive]." It did not compute.

 

It's really bizarre how this theory has come back. It was posed in a book 20 years ago and the agent it accused sued the publisher and it basically went away. The only thing I can guess is that with the agent now dead they're trotting it out again with the anniversary since it's a theory that sticks out even among the most ridiculous conspiracies. [expletive], Bill Kurtis was hosting a special seriously debating it the other night.

 

i am not a person who is knowledgeable about jfk assassination stuff at all. what is the argument that disproves all the stuff about the head shot coming from a secret service member at ground level?

[Sammy Sofa]

Listened the Simmons podcast. Bill James said he thought there was a 55 percent probability that the head shot came from a secret service agent in the following car??? What?

 

Bill James is pretty much a kook at all non-baseball stuff

 

Ok because I was like "this is an incredibly bright person who I really admire believing in utter [expletive]." It did not compute.

 

It's really bizarre how this theory has come back. It was posed in a book 20 years ago and the agent it accused sued the publisher and it basically went away. The only thing I can guess is that with the agent now dead they're trotting it out again with the anniversary since it's a theory that sticks out even among the most ridiculous conspiracies. [expletive], Bill Kurtis was hosting a special seriously debating it the other night.

 

i am not a person who is knowledgeable about jfk assassination stuff at all. what is the argument that disproves all the stuff about the head shot coming from a secret service member at ground level?

 

There was no physical evidence found of any other gun being used besides Oswald's. The autopsy indicates an entrance wound that came behind and ABOVE the motorcade. And while eyewitness testimony is always something that should be taken with a grain of salt, literally NOBODY on the scene claimed they saw or thought a shot came from the cars behind JFK's. Basically the theory is that Oswald was doing the shooting, but then the agent armed with an AR-15 in a car behind JFK's accidentally discharged the weapon while reacting to the shooting and hit JFK in the head. Even in the conspiracy theory "community" it's not taken very seriously.

[OleMissCub]

The thought that an accidental discharge of a firearm would happen to hit the president in the head while another person was simultaneously actually firing at his head is ludicrous. For a numbers man like James to assign a 55 percent probability to something that seems astronomically improbable (at least IMO) is astonishing.

[jersey cubs fan]

The thought that an accidental discharge of a firearm would happen to hit the president in the head while another person was simultaneously actually firing at his head is ludicrous. For a numbers man like James to assign a 55 percent probability to something that seems astronomically improbable (at least IMO) is astonishing.

 

Not sure how the simultaneously thought works here, and I'm unaware of this theory. However, wouldn't the first shot cause agents to draw their weapons and wouldn't the drawing of those weapons increase the probability of an accidental discharge and thus an accidental discharge that hit the person who most drew the attention of everybody surrounding him? It would be astronomically improbably for it to actually happen simultaneously, but the theory would be one shot led to the drawing of arms and thus the accidental shooting by the agent. The odds go way down at that point.

[Sammy Sofa]

And if you're going with the simultaneous thing, where the [expletive] is Oswald's third bullet? He definitely fired three, and if JFK was hit by TWO bullets his head would have straight up just been gone. Oswald's first shot missed only because it likely glanced off of a branch or a street light; how did his third shot completely miss the car?

 

And no, that doesn't explain the Magic Bullet (which doesn't need to be explained away, but that's a whole other tangent), because this theory actually argues in favor of one of Oswald's shots hitting both Kennedy and Connally.

 

It's bonkers.

[Guest]

Any of the people who think there was more than one shooter care to explain? It's one thing to think that there was a different shooter or that there was a conspiracy behind the shooter, but there is literally not a single bit of physical evidence of a second shooter (or more).

 

i think that there was a conspiracy. Maybe not a "high-level government" conspiracy, but I don't think Oswald "acted alone."

Oswald's assassination at the hands of Jack Ruby just makes such little sense. I don't think any of them planned on anyone involved getting caught, but there were other shooters acting as fail safes if Oswald didn't hit his target.

 

Ruby, on the other hand, was tied to organized crime and others that lost a lot in Cuba. To many, it was a very personal thing, and the murder may not have occurred for any other reason besides revenge, think Max Cady-type revenge, for the Bay of Pigs.

 

If Ruby was actually tasked with killing Oswald, why was nobody sent to kill Ruby?

 

Basically his killing of Oswald doesn't make a lot of sense because it was an irrational act based almost completely on chance. Oswald was actually transferred later than announced; Ruby was still asleep when Oswald was originally scheduled to be moved. He finally heads downtown and literally minutes before he shoots Oswald he's posting a money transfer at a Western Union office. He actually let the guy behind in him line go first; if that customer had taken just 30 seconds longer to finish his business Ruby would have missed Oswald's transfer completely. He brought his favorite dog along and left her in the car; everyone who knew him said he adored that dog and would have never left her in a car if he knew he wasn't coming back. Most damning of all is that Oswald was further delayed when he asked for a sweater. Without this act, Ruby yet again misses Oswald. The only way that was staged was if Oswald himself was in on his own execution.

 

Nevermind that Ruby was in and out of police HQ throughout the weekend. He had multiple chances to kill Oswald during those times, yet if he's assigned to silence Oswald he waits to do it at a moment that requires a multitude of lucky breaks to succeed (the armored car couldn't fit down the driveway, the chief's car couldn't back right up to the door because of all the reporters, etc.). This is a very temperamental, emotional guy and he finally snapped (and his mob connections are vastly overstated; he was a hanger-on in Chicago and Dallas at best. It was basically inevitable that he would know made guys based on who he grew up with and because he ran strip clubs but he was never anyone really all that connected and basically would be the worst choice for mob hitman ever).

 

If there were other shooters they literally left no trace of their existence. Dealy Plaza as a whole was scoured after the assassination and nothing was found besides evidence pointing to Oswald as the shooter. That's where any idea of a "small" conspiracy falls apart because a massive one is required to not only completely remove any evidence of anyone else but to also manipulate everything so that it points only at Oswald. It's just not realistic that something with so many moving parts and so many people required would have worked so perfectly.

 

Hell, if anyone would be backing Oswald as the lone shooter I'd think it was you, sulley, since he killed him for Cuba and Castro. He's a true revolutionary!

 

Wait, so Ruby was just kind of milling about, saw Oswald, and then shot him in an act of random passion because he just loved JFK that much? That doesn't make a ton of sense, but Ruby sounded pretty mentally ill.

[Tangled Up in Plaid]

Mystery solved:

[mhuber92211]

The whole point is that there are some pretty big leaps of logic with the whole situation. Why would Oswald wait for the harder shot instead of shooting as they came upon him just in case he missed he would be able to recover. The shots he took were the most difficult given the position that he was in. Add in the fact that the shots themselves were expert level marksmanship and being able to make 3 shots in the short time window is still difficult now, to the point where it couldn't be duplicated at first. Then with all this difficulty, the 3rd shot was the "bullseye" (not trying to be insensitive with that comment).

 

Then you have the horrible mistakes made by the doctors & coroners, the secret service plans that day, political environment and Oswald himself not claiming innocence but calling himself a patsy just gives more fuel to the fire and where there is smoke....

 

Obviously could be all a coincidence and all lined up and aukums (sp?) razor and all but it definitely lends more credence to something nefarious then most tragedies. Definitely not as simple as described

[Sammy Sofa]

Wait, so Ruby was just kind of milling about, saw Oswald, and then shot him in an act of random passion because he just loved JFK that much? That doesn't make a ton of sense, but Ruby sounded pretty mentally ill.

 

I wouldn't say it was as simple as "he loved JFK so much;" tons of people were horrified by what happened to the president regardless of their political persuasion. Ruby wasn't much a JFK fan as he was offended at the idea that someone like Oswald would kill "his president."

 

The guy definitely had anger issues; he was notorious with the Dallas cops because they would routinely have to come out to his clubs because he'd be in a fight. He was also always trying to ingratiate himself with the cops; he welcomed them into his clubs and plied them with free booze and the like and in turn he hung around the police station a lot, hence why he was in there several times over the weekend after Oswald was captured. Ruby was known around town as a guy who liked to try and always be around whatever was going down; he hung around the police and reporters a lot seemingly always trying to build himself up as something bigger than he was. A lot of people point to this as things that on the surface make him ideal to be in a position to silence Oswald, but if anything it just shows how horrible a choice a hitman he would have been; Jack Ruby could not shut the [expletive] up. He wanted to be liked and to impress people around him and he's the last person you'd entrust to not say anything about a massive plot to kill the president.

 

And yeah, him killing Oswald really was a spur of the moment thing. He likely knew Oswald was supposed to have been transferred earlier in the day, so odds are he made his way over just to see what was going on when he saw the people and the armored car milling around outside; that's the kind of thing Jack Ruby did. He walked down the ramp, got there literally only seconds before Oswald came out (again, why would a planned hit be left so close to failing if he is only momentarily delayed yet again?) and then snapped. He said himself that it was the look on Oswald's face in that moment that made him finally do it, and that was definitely a running theme with Oswald that weekend; multiple people who encountered him remarked about how smug he came across even just in the looks he gave and how people just wanted to clock him, or worse.

 

Basically the whole thing just came down to chance. The only reason Ruby was able to walk down the ramp was because the guard there stepped aside for a moment to help move the armored car out of the way. Add that to the myriad list of things that had to happen just right for him to end up at that moment and he's either the luckiest damn hitman ever or this was the most amazingly powerful conspiracy of all time.