The Marmol/Haren Trade That Wasn't

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Guys, I think if you debate the issue with questionmarkgrace for a couple more pages, you might change his mind.

 

Update: It appears I was incorrect.

 

On the bright side, I've changed my mind half a dozen times in that same span.

[USSoccer]

Guys, I think if you debate the issue with questionmarkgrace for a couple more pages, you might change his mind.

 

Update: It appears I was incorrect.

 

We should try it for a few more pages, just to be sure.

[Guest]

Guys, I think if you debate the issue with questionmarkgrace for a couple more pages, you might change his mind.

 

Update: It appears I was incorrect.

 

On the bright side, I've changed my mind half a dozen times in that same span.

 

This thread doesn't have to be about Kyle.

 

 

I could convince myself into believing that Haren stood a decent chance of bouncing back next year, but today certainly leaves "Haren's arm is shot" as the most likely scenario.

[XZero771679666304]

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2012/07/05/the-cubs-were-the-runners-up-for-yu-darvish/

 

A much later report ESPN from Buster Olney said the Cubs in fact finished second, and all teams were at least $35MM behind the Ranger's bid.

[XZero771679666304]

 

 

I could convince myself into believing that Haren stood a decent chance of bouncing back next year, but today certainly leaves "Haren's arm is shot" as the most likely scenario.

 

Whether it was his arm, back or both, that the Cubs pulled their offer, no one else traded for him and the Angels declined his option, it seems bad medicals are a near certainty.

[questionmarkgrace]

1) this stuff doesnt happen with other teams though.

 

The [expletive] it doesn't.

 

When theo was with the Red Sox leaks were very rare and they never killed a deal.

 

Holy [expletive], do you really believe this?

 

2) Not it was the cubs best shot to get the best return for Garza. Dont forget now he is a rental player at the trade deadline. He wont garner what he would have with a years control remaining.

 

No [expletive]. Nobody is saying it turn out to be a mistake to wait to try and force a better deal at the deadline. It's hardly something crippling or some kind of humiliating failure, and it's not like they still won't likely get a good return for him. Are you really THAT bothered by this?

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

4)It wasnt Rahm being Rahm. Each one of the Rickets children came out with their own press release condemning Joe Rickets statements at the time. And literally every article on the subject stated that it would hurt relations and 6 months later whatever plan Rahm did have hasnt even been brought up since.

 

It was barely brought up before, and there was seemingly no progress before it went down, so, ooooh, huge changes on the project that will get done regardless because we're talking about a hugely valuable asset for the city. Oh, and it was brought up...by Rahm, when he said after the fact it wouldn't impact things. So I guess you only believe certain things he says when it's convenient to make you feel more sad and cranky over the Cubs. But yeah, this was really embarrassing, because there's a score kept over those things, I guess.

 

How would we get a better return for garza now, when he is less of an asset because of the injury and the less years of control than last year? It wont happen. Why am I concerned with this? Have you seen our AAA, AA, and High A teams? If we arent spending in free agency and we dont have other chips to trade how does this team get better at all in the short term? Garza was our shot at major league ready pitching prospects. Now we will get considerably less barring an incredible stretch by Garza.

 

Multiple media outlets were reporting that the blue jays had actually won the bidding for Darvish shortly before the rangers were announced. Toronto newspapers were reporting a bid in the $50 mil range amongst others. Buster olney is an idiot and his one crappy article doesnt trump multiple others to the contrary.

 

I dont see how its convenient for me that the articles before the joe ricketts bs came out that everything was positive and there was a purported plan. And afterwards nothing but negativity and no plan? It seems rather clear not sure why you want to spin it any other way.

 

These things are embarrassing because the cubs cant seem to get out of their own way on several fronts. I dont think we have made any progress this year beyond the draft and soler and that was a given with or without Hendry. And I was one of the people saying this will be a 4-5 year transformation before we see a .500 team. Unfortunately Ive seen very little growth and more of the same spinning wheels.

[CUBZ99]

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2012/07/05/the-cubs-were-the-runners-up-for-yu-darvish/

 

A much later report ESPN from Buster Olney said the Cubs in fact finished second, and all teams were at least $35MM behind the Ranger's bid.

 

Tonight is excuse-central for Jed/Theo. How does that change the fact that they lost out on the bidding, and yet they had plenty of budget to spend if they thought he was worth it? Anybody can make up excuses for failures. Some of you guys/girls are going all out contortionist to twist the moves into a positive for the new front office. So far they have managed to do the impossible, which is to make the team even worse than where Hendry had it.

[XZero771679666304]

 

Multiple media outlets were reporting that the blue jays had actually won the bidding for Darvish shortly before the rangers were announced. Toronto newspapers were reporting a bid in the $50 mil range amongst others. Buster olney is an idiot and his one crappy article doesnt trump multiple others to the contrary.

 

 

The article you cited was right after the bidding, when all kinds of crap was being thrown at the wall and much conjecturing was going on, and no one knew anything other than the Rangers won and what they bid. Few of those initial reports agreed with each other, and most were based on what the media perception of what was going to happen, not any real knowledge of what actually happened.

 

Olney's report has not been disputed that I'm aware of (until now, by you), and it was much more recent. He may be a boob, but he's well connected.

 

Believe what you want to believe, but you're looking like an unbalanced, ignorant wacko here.

[CUBZ99]

1) this stuff doesnt happen with other teams though.

 

The [expletive] it doesn't.

 

When theo was with the Red Sox leaks were very rare and they never killed a deal.

 

Holy [expletive], do you really believe this?

 

2) Not it was the cubs best shot to get the best return for Garza. Dont forget now he is a rental player at the trade deadline. He wont garner what he would have with a years control remaining.

 

No [expletive]. Nobody is saying it turn out to be a mistake to wait to try and force a better deal at the deadline. It's hardly something crippling or some kind of humiliating failure, and it's not like they still won't likely get a good return for him. Are you really THAT bothered by this?

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

4)It wasnt Rahm being Rahm. Each one of the Rickets children came out with their own press release condemning Joe Rickets statements at the time. And literally every article on the subject stated that it would hurt relations and 6 months later whatever plan Rahm did have hasnt even been brought up since.

 

It was barely brought up before, and there was seemingly no progress before it went down, so, ooooh, huge changes on the project that will get done regardless because we're talking about a hugely valuable asset for the city. Oh, and it was brought up...by Rahm, when he said after the fact it wouldn't impact things. So I guess you only believe certain things he says when it's convenient to make you feel more sad and cranky over the Cubs. But yeah, this was really embarrassing, because there's a score kept over those things, I guess.

 

How would we get a better return for garza now, when he is less of an asset because of the injury and the less years of control than last year? It wont happen. Why am I concerned with this? Have you seen our AAA, AA, and High A teams? If we arent spending in free agency and we dont have other chips to trade how does this team get better at all in the short term? Garza was our shot at major league ready pitching prospects. Now we will get considerably less barring an incredible stretch by Garza.

 

Multiple media outlets were reporting that the blue jays had actually won the bidding for Darvish shortly before the rangers were announced. Toronto newspapers were reporting a bid in the $50 mil range amongst others. Buster olney is an idiot and his one crappy article doesnt trump multiple others to the contrary.

 

I dont see how its convenient for me that the articles before the joe ricketts bs came out that everything was positive and there was a purported plan. And afterwards nothing but negativity and no plan? It seems rather clear not sure why you want to spin it any other way.

 

These things are embarrassing because the cubs cant seem to get out of their own way on several fronts. I dont think we have made any progress this year beyond the draft and soler and that was a given with or without Hendry. And I was one of the people saying this will be a 4-5 year transformation before we see a .500 team. Unfortunately Ive seen very little growth and more of the same spinning wheels.

 

You forgot to add that the top prospect is still a Hendry draft pick.

[Guest]

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2012/07/05/the-cubs-were-the-runners-up-for-yu-darvish/

 

A much later report ESPN from Buster Olney said the Cubs in fact finished second, and all teams were at least $35MM behind the Ranger's bid.

 

Tonight is excuse-central for Jed/Theo. How does that change the fact that they lost out on the bidding, and yet they had plenty of budget to spend if they thought he was worth it? Anybody can make up excuses for failures. Some of you guys/girls are going all out contortionist to twist the moves into a positive for the new front office. So far they have managed to do the impossible, which is to make the team even worse than where Hendry had it.

 

did it ever occur to you that they might have CHOSEN not to invest over 100 million in a japanese pitcher who has never pitched in the majors?

 

and even though the major league roster is worse now than it was with hendry, the organization is in much better shape.

[Guest]

1) this stuff doesnt happen with other teams though.

 

The [expletive] it doesn't.

 

When theo was with the Red Sox leaks were very rare and they never killed a deal.

 

Holy [expletive], do you really believe this?

 

2) Not it was the cubs best shot to get the best return for Garza. Dont forget now he is a rental player at the trade deadline. He wont garner what he would have with a years control remaining.

 

No [expletive]. Nobody is saying it turn out to be a mistake to wait to try and force a better deal at the deadline. It's hardly something crippling or some kind of humiliating failure, and it's not like they still won't likely get a good return for him. Are you really THAT bothered by this?

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

4)It wasnt Rahm being Rahm. Each one of the Rickets children came out with their own press release condemning Joe Rickets statements at the time. And literally every article on the subject stated that it would hurt relations and 6 months later whatever plan Rahm did have hasnt even been brought up since.

 

It was barely brought up before, and there was seemingly no progress before it went down, so, ooooh, huge changes on the project that will get done regardless because we're talking about a hugely valuable asset for the city. Oh, and it was brought up...by Rahm, when he said after the fact it wouldn't impact things. So I guess you only believe certain things he says when it's convenient to make you feel more sad and cranky over the Cubs. But yeah, this was really embarrassing, because there's a score kept over those things, I guess.

 

How would we get a better return for garza now, when he is less of an asset because of the injury and the less years of control than last year? It wont happen. Why am I concerned with this? Have you seen our AAA, AA, and High A teams? If we arent spending in free agency and we dont have other chips to trade how does this team get better at all in the short term? Garza was our shot at major league ready pitching prospects. Now we will get considerably less barring an incredible stretch by Garza.

 

Multiple media outlets were reporting that the blue jays had actually won the bidding for Darvish shortly before the rangers were announced. Toronto newspapers were reporting a bid in the $50 mil range amongst others. Buster olney is an idiot and his one crappy article doesnt trump multiple others to the contrary.

 

I dont see how its convenient for me that the articles before the joe ricketts bs came out that everything was positive and there was a purported plan. And afterwards nothing but negativity and no plan? It seems rather clear not sure why you want to spin it any other way.

 

These things are embarrassing because the cubs cant seem to get out of their own way on several fronts. I dont think we have made any progress this year beyond the draft and soler and that was a given with or without Hendry. And I was one of the people saying this will be a 4-5 year transformation before we see a .500 team. Unfortunately Ive seen very little growth and more of the same spinning wheels.

 

You forgot to add that the top prospect is still a Hendry draft pick.

 

ok now give me your top 10 and let's see how many hendry guys are in there

[XZero771679666304]

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2012/07/05/the-cubs-were-the-runners-up-for-yu-darvish/

 

A much later report ESPN from Buster Olney said the Cubs in fact finished second, and all teams were at least $35MM behind the Ranger's bid.

 

Tonight is excuse-central for Jed/Theo. How does that change the fact that they lost out on the bidding, and yet they had plenty of budget to spend if they thought he was worth it? Anybody can make up excuses for failures. Some of you guys/girls are going all out contortionist to twist the moves into a positive for the new front office. So far they have managed to do the impossible, which is to make the team even worse than where Hendry had it.

 

The clear implication is that they thought they were making a competitive bid. Sure, they could have chose to make a massive play like the Rangers, but they didn't place a "token" bid, which is the case some have tried to make.

 

The rest of your post is too stupid to warrant a response.

[Sammy Sofa]

Unfortunately Ive seen very little growth and more of the same spinning wheels.

 

Probably because you're making a lot of things up.

[Sammy Sofa]

And Joe Ricketts ate "the plan." Or something.

[Sammy Sofa]

Also: trading Matt Garza was apparently the holy grail of saving the farm system.

[CUBZ99]

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2012/07/05/the-cubs-were-the-runners-up-for-yu-darvish/

 

A much later report ESPN from Buster Olney said the Cubs in fact finished second, and all teams were at least $35MM behind the Ranger's bid.

 

Tonight is excuse-central for Jed/Theo. How does that change the fact that they lost out on the bidding, and yet they had plenty of budget to spend if they thought he was worth it? Anybody can make up excuses for failures. Some of you guys/girls are going all out contortionist to twist the moves into a positive for the new front office. So far they have managed to do the impossible, which is to make the team even worse than where Hendry had it.

 

The clear implication is that they thought they were making a competitive bid. Sure, they could have chose to make a massive play like the Rangers, but they didn't place a "token" bid, which is the case some have tried to make.

 

The rest of your post is too stupid to warrant a response.

 

Exactly the type of response I expected. Excuse, excuse, excuse.....except now instead of an intelligent response an obligatory resort to demeaning behavior. You made my point for me.

[XZero771679666304]

Unfortunately Ive seen very little growth and more of the same spinning wheels.

 

Probably because you're making a lot of things up.

 

Or ignorantly blowing [expletive] out of his ass, whichever you prefer. Semantics.

 

It's like the Cubs fan version of Fox and Friends in here tonight, so I'm out.

[CUBZ99]

 

3) No, the blue jays were reportedly right with the rangers in bidding for Darvish. and it was widely reported that the amount would be very close to what it took to get Dice-k. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/runner-up-blue-jays-bid-more-than-50-million-for-yu-darvish/

 

There were many more reports after that that indicated that the Rangers actually outbid everyone else by a pretty significant margin and the Blue Jays bid nowhere near $50 million. If you want to stick with the story from December, hey, great. That's not very smart.

 

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2012/07/05/the-cubs-were-the-runners-up-for-yu-darvish/

 

A much later report ESPN from Buster Olney said the Cubs in fact finished second, and all teams were at least $35MM behind the Ranger's bid.

 

Tonight is excuse-central for Jed/Theo. How does that change the fact that they lost out on the bidding, and yet they had plenty of budget to spend if they thought he was worth it? Anybody can make up excuses for failures. Some of you guys/girls are going all out contortionist to twist the moves into a positive for the new front office. So far they have managed to do the impossible, which is to make the team even worse than where Hendry had it.

 

did it ever occur to you that they might have CHOSEN not to invest over 100 million in a japanese pitcher who has never pitched in the majors?

 

and even though the major league roster is worse now than it was with hendry, the organization is in much better shape.

 

It was still a failure on the part of the scouting system. The Cubs had the money to sign him and should have at least made a competitive bid, but they didn't and lost.

[Guest]

It was still a failure on the part of the scouting system. The Cubs had the money to sign him and should have at least made a competitive bid, but they didn't and lost.

 

uhhh, it's still to be determined whether or not darvish will turn out to be a good investment. his numbers this year were pretty similar to daisuke's first season

 

please go back to cubs.com

[CUBZ99]

It was still a failure on the part of the scouting system. The Cubs had the money to sign him and should have at least made a competitive bid, but they didn't and lost.

 

uhhh, it's still to be determined whether or not darvish will turn out to be a good investment.

 

please go back to cubs.com

 

He was a 5+ WAR this year and worth over $22MM according to Fangraphs, what was he paid this year?

 

Do you think he was a bad investment for the Rangers?

[SouthSideRyan]

You have no [expletive] clue how blind bids work do you

[Sammy Sofa]

"Failure on the part of the scouting system?" Which part of the scouting system is that, the spies that know what other teams' secret bids are?

[Guest]

It was still a failure on the part of the scouting system. The Cubs had the money to sign him and should have at least made a competitive bid, but they didn't and lost.

 

uhhh, it's still to be determined whether or not darvish will turn out to be a good investment.

 

please go back to cubs.com

 

He was a 5+ WAR this year and worth over $22MM according to Fangraphs, what was he paid this year?

 

Do you think he was a bad investment for the Rangers?

 

WE DON'T KNOW YET BECAUSE HE HAS ONLY PITCHED ONE YEAR.

 

look at daisuke's fWAR and fangraphs dollar value (which is a garbage thing to look at by the way). or hideo nomo, for that matter.

[Sammy Sofa]

The doubly stupid thing about this is that if you're going to harp on missing out on signing a choice international FA then complaining about Cespedes makes soooooooooo much more sense than Darvish. Meatballs can't even meatball right.

[CUBZ99]

"Failure on the part of the scouting system?" Which part of the scouting system is that, the spies that know what other teams' secret bids are?

 

No, the part that determines values of players. There is really no point on arguing this anymore, you seem to be more intent on making up excuses than dealing with facts.

 

Just for kicks, whose fault is it if the team doesn't place a winning bid or value a player properly?