Minor League Discussion & Boxes 6-11-12

[Guest]

Was calling up Castro early a mistake?

Yes.

 

We should have had him work on his discipline before promoting him.

[Named After Maddux]

Was calling up Castro early a mistake?

 

I've heard that it could cost the cubs 8-12 million. It was short sighted at least. The only bright spot, Castro was clearly ready offensively.

[Brian]

Was calling up Castro early a mistake?

 

I'm pretty sure Castro was called up after the cut off for him, Rizzo is later in the season because of his service time from last year.

 

 

(I could be completely wrong)

 

 

edit - and while I was typing that I was proven wrong.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Brian

[ctcf]

Hahahahaha I bet he was really proud of that Castro line.

[Guest]

These clock games are silly. Call him up and play him everyday at first

 

You think it's silly to wait an additional 10-11 days to get an extra full year of control?

Yes. If Rizzo projects as expected, he'll be locked up long term regardless. We are the Cubs, not a small market team.

 

Gotta love when someone is so stubborn that when given an obvious choice, a choice that would suggest they are wrong, they go with the illogical clearly wrong choice just so they don't have to admit that they are wrong.

[CubColtPacer]

Was calling up Castro early a mistake?

 

I would lean towards yes, although in Castro's case they would have had to wait another month so the other position is perfectly defensible too IMO.

 

There's definitely a practical aspect to waiting for dates. Do I think the Cubs should wait the 10-15 days on Rizzo to ensure an extra year of team control? Absolutely, because him playing in the majors for 10-15 days in the middle of the season is not worth the millions of dollars the Cubs would lose. Should the Cubs wait the extra month+ after that to ensure no Super 2? IMO, no. Even though the Cubs will still be costing themselves millions in that case, waiting would put it too late in the season for Rizzo to get a decent number of major league at-bats this year to be prepared for 2013. I don't think it's a horrible decision if they wait, but I think in that case the benefit outweighs the cost. But bringing him up right now? The benefit is tiny compared to the cost.

[Theo]

These clock games are silly. Call him up and play him everyday at first

 

You think it's silly to wait an additional 10-11 days to get an extra full year of control?

Yes. If Rizzo projects as expected, he'll be locked up long term regardless. We are the Cubs, not a small market team.

 

Gotta love when someone is so stubborn that when given an obvious choice, a choice that would suggest they are wrong, they go with the illogical clearly wrong choice just so they don't have to admit that they are wrong.

Again, it's just my opinion. I understand the other POV as well

[Irrelevant Dude]

Was calling up Castro early a mistake?

 

I'm pretty sure Castro was called up after the cut off for him, Rizzo is later in the season because of his service time from last year.

 

 

(I could be completely wrong)

 

 

edit - and while I was typing that I was proven wrong.

I could be wrong too, but wasnt Castro just called up before the super 2 cutoff, meaning the Cubs still have him under control for the same number of years, but he will get an extra arbitration year?

 

Sent from my LG-LS840 using Tapatalk 2

[CubColtPacer]

Was calling up Castro early a mistake?

 

I'm pretty sure Castro was called up after the cut off for him, Rizzo is later in the season because of his service time from last year.

 

 

(I could be completely wrong)

 

 

edit - and while I was typing that I was proven wrong.

 

Castro was in between the two dates. The Cubs got the extra year of team control (the one that's coming up soon for Rizzo) but they brought him up early enough that Castro will be a Super 2 giving him an extra year of arbitration.

[ctcf]

These clock games are silly. Call him up and play him everyday at first

 

You think it's silly to wait an additional 10-11 days to get an extra full year of control?

Yes. If Rizzo projects as expected, he'll be locked up long term regardless. We are the Cubs, not a small market team.

 

Gotta love when someone is so stubborn that when given an obvious choice, a choice that would suggest they are wrong, they go with the illogical clearly wrong choice just so they don't have to admit that they are wrong.

Again, it's just my opinion. I understand the other POV as well

 

It's just that your opinion lacks any real logical argument in its favor.

[CubColtPacer]

Again, it's just my opinion. I understand the other POV as well

 

It's just that your opinion lacks any real logical argument in its favor.

 

There is major league developmental time to consider, especially in this case when you consider Rizzo's struggles at the major league level last year. The more time he gets to adjust before games really become important, the better. I don't consider it nearly enough in this case to be worth the cost, but someone who values it highly might.

[ctcf]

Again, it's just my opinion. I understand the other POV as well

 

It's just that your opinion lacks any real logical argument in its favor.

 

There is major league developmental time to consider, especially in this case when you consider Rizzo's struggles at the major league level last year. The more time he gets to adjust before games really become important, the better. I don't consider it nearly enough in this case to be worth the cost, but someone who values it highly might.

 

I'd be ridiculously impressed if someone could make the case that ~10-11 games of major league development time is worth millions of dollars.

[17 Seconds]

These clock games are silly. Call him up and play him everyday at first

 

You think it's silly to wait an additional 10-11 days to get an extra full year of control?

Yes. If Rizzo projects as expected, he'll be locked up long term regardless. We are the Cubs, not a small market team.

 

Gotta love when someone is so stubborn that when given an obvious choice, a choice that would suggest they are wrong, they go with the illogical clearly wrong choice just so they don't have to admit that they are wrong.

Again, it's just my opinion. I understand the other POV as well

 

and this is what usually follows that kind of stubbornness.

[CubsInNC]

Nice play from DeVoss @ Peoria tonight.

[toonsterwu]

There's absolutely zero reason to bring Rizzo up before whatever the date is that gives the Cubs the extra year. 10-11 days won't dent anything on this season, but it gives the Cubs a lot more flexibility with Rizzo. However, there is no reason to wait until the Super 2 date on Rizzo.

 

Take a step back and look at potential thoughts from the POV of the Cubs front office and not as a fan -

 

a) Rizzo is/has been working on a shorter swing. I'm not real sure that the clips I've seen are significantly different from what I saw of Rizzo coming up the ladder, and clips from last year ... but people more knowledgeable say that he has a swing that's a bit shorter and a bit more compact than last year. While he could work on it in the majors, working on it in the minors is preferable.

 

b) There is the LaHair factor. The Cubs probably want to deal LaHair. Now, I don't think LaHair will be a significant block to any issues with Rizzo, but assuming LaHair doesn't completely collapse (and even his down May wasn't bad ... just not good), he needs PT to be able to net something in a trade, and the Cubs want Soriano to get PT to try and shop him. Again, not a big deal, but a small factor perhaps.

 

c) A year saved is a lot of money that gives them the potential flexibility to add help that year. Furthermore, a year saved always gives them a ton more flexibility if they decide, for some fortuitous or calamitous reason, to shop Rizzo (I doubt it, but if this is a smart, forward thinking front office, I hope they've thought about every contingency possible)

 

d) I imagine they might not want to burden Rizzo as the savior/the hope. With the bad swing this club is in, while no one expects it to turn around significantly, they might want to wait for a better stretch before bringing him up.

 

There's probably a couple other things I could think of, but there's just too many reasons to not bring him up right now.

 

All that said, they absolutely need to bring him up to get enough AB's this year, particularly because of reason 1. They need to see if the adjustments he's made to his swing can hold against major league pitching, and they need him to see what he needs to work on. Everyone knows Rizzo against AAA pitching is a joke right now, so at some point they need to see.

 

My hunch - Rizzo comes up after the ASB in July (majors and AAA), in either the last road trip before August, or the last homestand (depending on how they feel about starting Rizzo at home). At that point, LaHair and/or Soriano will hopefully have been dealt, he'll be clear of the FA line, will have perhaps gotten in his AAA ASG. He'll get 2 months and change to see what he needs to work on for the future, which should be plenty of time for him (and plenty of time for the Cubs to evaluate him).

[Rizzo Smash]

Here's a raw video of Rizzo's 2nd homerun tonight against a lefty:

[UMFan83]

I mean are you serious? 10 days of waiting vs. millions of dollars down the road? How can you even argue against that? The fact that the Cubs are a Big market team doesnt mean they need to throw their money around recklessly for no reason.

[toonsterwu]

Here's a raw video of Rizzo's 2nd homerun tonight against a lefty:

 

hmm ... looks decent to my untrained eye. Hard to tell, but swing seems like it can still get long at times (obviously, this was a case where things connected, so it'd be interesting to look at the, admittedly, limited videos where he looks bad), but the swing seems a lot more compact.

[TruffleShuffle]

you can tell from that one swing that his swing can still get long at times, but it also looks a lot more compact?

[rawaction]

There's absolutely zero reason to bring Rizzo up before whatever the date is that gives the Cubs the extra year. 10-11 days won't dent anything on this season, but it gives the Cubs a lot more flexibility with Rizzo. However, there is no reason to wait until the Super 2 date on Rizzo.

 

Take a step back and look at potential thoughts from the POV of the Cubs front office and not as a fan -

 

a) Rizzo is/has been working on a shorter swing. I'm not real sure that the clips I've seen are significantly different from what I saw of Rizzo coming up the ladder, and clips from last year ... but people more knowledgeable say that he has a swing that's a bit shorter and a bit more compact than last year. While he could work on it in the majors, working on it in the minors is preferable.

 

b) There is the LaHair factor. The Cubs probably want to deal LaHair. Now, I don't think LaHair will be a significant block to any issues with Rizzo, but assuming LaHair doesn't completely collapse (and even his down May wasn't bad ... just not good), he needs PT to be able to net something in a trade, and the Cubs want Soriano to get PT to try and shop him. Again, not a big deal, but a small factor perhaps.

 

c) A year saved is a lot of money that gives them the potential flexibility to add help that year. Furthermore, a year saved always gives them a ton more flexibility if they decide, for some fortuitous or calamitous reason, to shop Rizzo (I doubt it, but if this is a smart, forward thinking front office, I hope they've thought about every contingency possible)

 

d) I imagine they might not want to burden Rizzo as the savior/the hope. With the bad swing this club is in, while no one expects it to turn around significantly, they might want to wait for a better stretch before bringing him up.

 

There's probably a couple other things I could think of, but there's just too many reasons to not bring him up right now.

 

All that said, they absolutely need to bring him up to get enough AB's this year, particularly because of reason 1. They need to see if the adjustments he's made to his swing can hold against major league pitching, and they need him to see what he needs to work on. Everyone knows Rizzo against AAA pitching is a joke right now, so at some point they need to see.

 

My hunch - Rizzo comes up after the ASB in July (majors and AAA), in either the last road trip before August, or the last homestand (depending on how they feel about starting Rizzo at home). At that point, LaHair and/or Soriano will hopefully have been dealt, he'll be clear of the FA line, will have perhaps gotten in his AAA ASG. He'll get 2 months and change to see what he needs to work on for the future, which should be plenty of time for him (and plenty of time for the Cubs to evaluate him).

 

I don't think there's anyway Rizzo is in Iowa at the end of July. I think worst case, if the Cubs don't want him to open up in Wrigley, he plays in Atlanta July 2. Gives him a look for a week before the AS game. I wouldn't be surprised to see him as early as the White Sox series, despite the talk that he would NOT be up for interleague play.

[Magnetic Curses]

Was calling up Castro early a mistake?

 

you know, i'm going all silly meatball over the guy, too, but there's no point in freaking out over a week or two.

[KingCubsFan]

I think it's time to send Concepcion down. He's either (a) not nearly as ready as the Cubs thought, (b) not nearly as talented as the Cubs thought, or © was only signed because he's friends with Soler. No matter the answer, he's better served hanging out with Soler in Mesa.

[Guest]

I think it's time to send Concepcion down. He's either (a) not nearly as ready as the Cubs thought, (b) not nearly as talented as the Cubs thought, or © was only signed because he's friends with Soler. No matter the answer, he's better served hanging out with Soler in Mesa.

 

 

It's been mentioned that they've had him working on his fastball and throwing it almost exclusively, IIRC.

[bukie]

Yeah, it's wise to not get too caught up in results, especially at lower levels of development. There are always adjustment periods and specific developments.

[Named After Maddux]

I think it's time to send Concepcion down. He's either (a) not nearly as ready as the Cubs thought, (b) not nearly as talented as the Cubs thought, or © was only signed because he's friends with Soler. No matter the answer, he's better served hanging out with Soler in Mesa.

 

 

It's been mentioned that they've had him working on his fastball and throwing it almost exclusively, IIRC.

 

I believe his manager said if they let him throw his breaking stuff more he would completely be wiping hitters out. It's a little gushy of a response, but there seems to be some truth to it. If he develops really good command and maybe a tick or two increase in velocity he could really take off next year. I hate to see him struggle so much, but I'm more concerned with next year's results/later this season.